Time for jack to stand up and tell the truth.

[PIK]

Why do we need jets ,because when the shit hits the fan and it will, we will be up against the best the chinese has to offer. Why is china building huge ice breakers? Is it because their top general said since we have 20% of the pop ,then 20% of the arctic is ours. Open your eyes people, what is coming years down tghe road is what they are looking at.This planet is getting over populated and we are sitting on everything people arte going to need, tghis is not the time to let jack take over and weaken us to a state ,that we can not protect our own shores.The future is not looking to bright and people better realize that.

[ninjandrew]

At least half of the new members will retire from posting after the election results come in.

Probably. This forum is a great resource, especially around election time. I'd like to continue reading though, to stay in the loop. Are there any magazines regarding goings on in Canadian politics?

[cybercoma]

I'm sure that really resonates with the rest of Canada.

"The Chinese are coming! ARM YOURSELVES!"

For all the complaining about immigration the right does, do you really think the Chinese would bomb their home away from home?

[Shwa]

Why do we need jets ,because when the shit hits the fan and it will, we will be up against the best the chinese has to offer. Why is china building huge ice breakers? Is it because their top general said since we have 20% of the pop ,then 20% of the arctic is ours. Open your eyes people, what is coming years down tghe road is what they are looking at.This planet is getting over populated and we are sitting on everything people arte going to need, tghis is not the time to let jack take over and weaken us to a state ,that we can not protect our own shores.The future is not looking to bright and people better realize that.

Yes because a handful of fighters is going to make difference against a billion thirsty Chinese. You might as well learn how to use chopsticks right now.

The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!

[Shwa]

I'm sure that really resonates with the rest of Canada.

"The Chinese are coming! ARM YOURSELVES!"

For all the complaining about immigration the right does, do you really think the Chinese would bomb their home away from home?

Downtown Toronto and Markham are no-war zones.

[Scotty]

They will certainly be necessary if we want to go into all the wars that Harper would sign us up for. With a non-hawk government, we won't need as many.

WTH are you talking about? It was Chretien and Martin who got us into Afghanistan. And last I recall Layton was once demanding we deploy troops to Sudan. And neither he nor Iganatieff had any problem with us going to Libya.

Well, maybe the companies that are taking Canadian oil and minerals out of the ground should pay 50% tax. They're making money off of depleting non-renewable resources that belong to the Canadian people. Hugo Chavez did something similar and despite all the fearmongering, Venezuela is doing just fine.

You have a rather bizarre view of what 'fine' is.

Instead of worrying about helping businesses making lots of money, let's help businesses to survive, by lowering things like payroll taxes, and improving our health care, and CPP so that business don't have to pay for those, for their employees.

Business isn't paying for those things now. The taxpayer is.

But, it's been pretty well established by this point. The nations of the world agrees that carbon emissions need to be lowered, we're just not sure who is going to take on the burden.

Carbon emissions are not going to be lowered. End of story. If we're all set on the idea that global warming is going to cause certain problems we should put the money towards dealing with those problems.

If Alberta has so much money, that they can have the lowest tax rates, have no PST, and give everyone a cash bonus, then yes, they can afford to clean up their own mess.

I may not be a westerner but I bet any strong moves against western oil and the wealth it generates is going to be like throwing jet fuel onto the flickering embers of western separation. But then, you guys don't give a shit about western separatism, even though you're willing to sell your soul to keep Quebec from heading in that direction.

[eyeball]

That sort of mentality is, in fact, one of the issues I have with socialists; their belief - I'd call it a God given belief except they're mostly not religious - in their own right to control other people's lives and what they do - FOR THEIR OWN GOOD.

Well, I certainly don't feel I have that right and I'll be amongst the first to rail against any government that thinks it does.

It should go without saying that the biggest beef I have with conservatives is their determination to have the governments they elect impose their morals and goofy economic beliefs on everyone else.

It's a funny little world we live in isn't it?

[KeyStone]

WTH are you talking about? It was Chretien and Martin who got us into Afghanistan.

Yes, but what you seem to be forgetting is Harper's apology to the Americans that we weren't jumping into Iraq, which would have been far more costly. Chretien kept us out.

You have a rather bizarre view of what 'fine' is.

Well perhaps the best indicator, is whether or not people think that they are happy.

And Venezuelans are very happy. But let's not go off on a tangent.

Business isn't paying for those things now. The taxpayer is.

Well, businesses are paying for payroll taxes.

And in some cases they are paying for the healthcare and pensions.

If national healthcare and pensions were better, businesses wouldn't have to pay them at all, giving them a huge savings.

And unlike giving money directly to businesses, this wouldn't be considered a subsidy and therefore not in violation of WTO.

Carbon emissions are not going to be lowered. End of story. If we're all set on the idea that global warming is going to cause certain problems we should put the money towards dealing with those problems.

That's the idea. But we're asking the companies responsible to put the money towards dealing with those problems.

[Ottawavalleyboy]

Spending on social programs can be good for businesses, who no longer have to pay for medical expenses, pensions etc. This is a big part of the reason why many auto-manufacturing companies have located here.

And how is that low tax rate working out for Ireland? They are on the verge of bankruptcy, and they have to be bailed out by the EU.

As for Sweden, you know that they have some of the highest tax rates in the world, right?

They aren't moving to Sweden, for the tax breaks. They're moving there for educated employees, infrastructure, and health care benefits.

Funny, we had seven budget surpluses in a row before your Conservatives took over. As long as we stop this march to lower taxes to complete, we'll be fine. If we had a nation with free medical, dental, education, and a good pension plan, a lot of good business would locate here for the skilled employees, and the fact that they wouldn't need medical plans.

What do you think happens when we lower our taxes to "compete". Other nations do the same thing. Then we all have about the same proportion of businesses that we started with, but with much less tax revenues, creating massive shortages or public funding worldwide. Do you honestly think that enterpeneurs with a great idea, decide not to start a business because they have to pay 18% tax on the profits, rather than 16%? No. All the tax rate does is take businesses from other nations. It's a zero sum game, and the only ones winning with this international price war is business owners, at the expense of government coffers and public services.

Ya the deficit is Harpers fault not a global recession <sarcasm>. We weathered the recession at the top of the pack because of good governance. Martin balanced the budget? He raided the federal pension plan and cut transfer payments to the provinces. If you truly believe free health care, dental, education and retirement plan could work then you're truly out to lunch. Who is going to pay for this?!? The vast majority of businesses can't afford more taxes or more fees. I know this because I deal with it daily. You can't bleed more money from businesses, you can't increase income taxes, and you can't increase sales taxes. People keep saying "big corporations", most small and medium businesses are corporations and I am sure we will be just a hard hit if not worse hit by the reprecussions of smilin Jack in power. Either way from the what the polls are showing at the moment us dissagreeing about this wont matter the proof will be there in a year when we have a 100billion dollar deficit and people are crying that there are no jobs and socialism failed. Left wing ideals will attract no more immigration then we are already facing now. Like I said previously the public purse is too big already but you want to essentially double it, it doesn't work.

[PIK]

Yes because a handful of fighters is going to make difference against a billion thirsty Chinese. You might as well learn how to use chopsticks right now.

The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!

That is why we need the best the newest and the stealth. Answer me this why is china building ice breakers , new jets and boats for what?

[Ottawavalleyboy]

Well, let's start with the 30 billion they won't be spending on fighter jets, and the other 10 billion that won't be lost to corporate tax cuts. Once that runs out, we can have a conversation.

Where is it exactly that you think they are going to? The US has higher tax rates than us.

The kind of industry that we excel at doesn't do well in Bangladesh or Chile.

The oil, forestry and mining companies, can't exactly pick up shop.

"Owners do not take pay cuts, they just pass it on to the consumer."

So, by that same logic, owners could raise prices anytime they want to, and then they would make more money.

Are you daft man? If the owners could raise prices, and make more money, that's exactly what they would do.

"Do people here understand what cap and trade(carbon tax) will do, do you not think energy and hydro and food is expensive enough."

If I eat my lunch in the park, I clean it up. If the government has to pay to clean up for people who leave their garbage in the park, then those people should have to pay. The same rule applies to polluters. If you pollute the country, you should pay more than a company that does not pollute. Why should all companies subsidize the clean-up costs for the polluters?

"Can the people of this country hold on while we experiment with a socialist goverment, that has bankrupt ONT and BC,"

Well, this is just made up. Might as well accuse the NDP of planning an alien invasion while you are at it.

"Can everyone here afford to pay more for health care for immigrant's parents and grand parents that are going to come here and have ,to jump right into our health care system, ahead of canadians that have worked hard and long"

This point has some merit. We can't be taking eighty year old people into the country that have never paid a dime into our system, and spend hundreds of thousands if not millions on their health care costs. Hopefully, Jack will find a more sustainable solution. Regardless, health care in general needs an overhaul. We can't keep up with the boomers.

Owners would have to raise there prices, cut costs, or else shut the doors. Cost of living goes up and jobs dissappear. There is no such thing as "free" and increasing costs means costs get passed on somehow . Want a prime example of cost cutting? Enbridge which was previously consumers gas in ottawa at one point ran a fairly equal ratio between union employees and sub contractors. Now the ratio is closer to 80% contractors, the contractors sub there work to sub contractors. The sub contractors make less than the actual employees and supply there own vehicles, they work piece work and if there is not enough work for the employees the contractors get nothing. No benefits and no pay whenever its slow in the business. This is where the future is trending as it is and taxing the hell out of everyone and everything will just accellerate the process. So in the end we get poor jobs, and poor pay. Sorry but personally I am perfectly fine with paying for daycare, and paying into private businesses to manage my health insurance because I see how poorly the government can manage our money.

As far as the jets go, we can have a responsibility both to the U.N and Nato to maintain a mobile capable armed force and fighter jets are parts of that.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Ottawavalleyboy

[Shakeyhands]

We weathered the recession at the top of the pack because of good governance. Martin balanced the budget? He raided the federal pension plan and cut transfer payments to the provinces.

I never tire of reading these comments.

[Black Dog]

That is why we need the best the newest and the stealth.

So if the PLA decide to invade, we'll last 10 minutes instead of five?

[wyly]

That is why we need the best the newest and the stealth. Answer me this why is china building ice breakers ,

well China has as much right to traverse the arctic ocean as any other country and according to US views on our sovereignty China can travel through our NWP as well...

new jets and boats for what?

and the US is building new jets and boats for what?...paranoia is an irrational beast....

[Ottawavalleyboy]

Why do we need jets ,because when the shit hits the fan and it will, we will be up against the best the chinese has to offer. Why is china building huge ice breakers? Is it because their top general said since we have 20% of the pop ,then 20% of the arctic is ours. Open your eyes people, what is coming years down tghe road is what they are looking at.This planet is getting over populated and we are sitting on everything people arte going to need, tghis is not the time to let jack take over and weaken us to a state ,that we can not protect our own shores.The future is not looking to bright and people better realize that.

Um wow... just wow

[Lumpy]

... Hugo Chavez did something similar and despite all the fearmongering, Venezuela is doing just fine.

Is it really? Socialism may not always fail, but I'm pretty sure Venezuela is not a good example of where it has succeeded.

[punked]

Is it really? Socialism may not always fail, but I'm pretty sure Venezuela is not a good example of where it has succeeded.

Good thing the NDP isn't Socialist then isn't it?

[KeyStone]

WTH are you talking about? It was Chretien and Martin who got us into Afghanistan. And last I recall Layton was once demanding we deploy troops to Sudan. And neither he nor Iganatieff had any problem with us going to Libya.

Oops, somehow my response to this got missed.

Anyways, you know very well that Harper would have signed up to all of those wars.

Plus, Harper made it pretty obvious that he would have put us into Iraq as well, the most costly of them all.

And it's a pretty safe bet, that Harper would make the 'we don't want our Canadian boys dying in vain' speech to justify keeping Canadian troops dying indefinitely in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than cut our losses, and admit we f'ed up.

[TTM]

Owners would have to raise there prices, cut costs, or else shut the doors. Cost of living goes up and jobs dissappear. There is no such thing as "free" and increasing costs means costs get passed on somehow.

I'm sorry, but I can't quite follow the logic. The corporate taxes we are talking about, AFAIK, are on profit. A higher tax is an added cost, but on net income only, i.e. after expenses. I think you overstate the impact significantly

Want a prime example of cost cutting? Enbridge which was previously consumers gas in ottawa at one point ran a fairly equal ratio between union employees and sub contractors. Now the ratio is closer to 80% contractors, the contractors sub there work to sub contractors. The sub contractors make less than the actual employees and supply there own vehicles, they work piece work and if there is not enough work for the employees the contractors get nothing. No benefits and no pay whenever its slow in the business.

This has little to no relation to corporate taxes, it has to do with reducing payroll costs. Reducing corporate taxes will not reverse this, increasing corporate taxes will not accelerate it. It is however an example of the benefits of weakening unions.

[KeyStone]

Ya the deficit is Harpers fault not a global recession <sarcasm>. We weathered the recession at the top of the pack because of good governance.

Yeah, we did alright, but that's largely because of our sound banking industry, not because of tax breaks, and huge government spending (particularly in Conservative ridings). I don't think that we have to go from seven consecutive years of surplus, to Harper's government ensuring we'll be running deficits until 2015.

It's funny that the right always complains about tax and spend governments, yet when times get tough, they spend far more than the Liberals. The only difference is that the Liberals can pay for their spending instead of racking up massive deficits.

If you truly believe free health care, dental, education and retirement plan could work then you're truly out to lunch. Who is going to pay for this?!?

We already have free health care, secondary education, and pension plans. Yes, adding dental and improving those other programs will cost, but look at the advantages:

Free education - means better educated work force. This is good for businesses who need skilled employees. This means we can compete for the good jobs not shitty assembly line minimum wage jobs with no benefits.

Medical and Basic Dental - again this is a cost that employers won't need to worry about. Do you know how much Ford, and GM pay in health care costs for their employees in the US. Again, this is a way to attract good jobs, not krap ones.

Pension - aside from being great for everyone, this will also alleviate some of the burden from employers - GM was almost crippled from the pension plans. We have CPP already, but it could be boosted, so that our elderly aren't struggling to pay their basic bills.

The vast majority of businesses can't afford more taxes or more fees.I know this because I deal with it daily. You can't bleed more money from businesses, you can't increase income taxes.

Well clearly, you don't know this, because you don't seem to understand what an income tax is. It's a tax on profit. So, after all expenses are paid for, after all the dinners, alcohol, and rents are written off as business expenses, after the owner, and his family all draw big salaries, after then do the depreciation, and CCA, and after they reinvest into the company and figure out ways to defer, then they pay tax on what money is left. So, yes, businesses can afford it. No one has ever had to lay off employees because income tax went up. Now, it is possible that some businesses may decide to relocate to a more tax-friendly environment.

It's absolutely astounding how taxes keep going down and down, but the right shrieks about being taxed to death. Meanwhile the gap between rich and poor just keeps growing. The whining needs to stop. It's preposterous.

People keep saying "big corporations", most small and medium businesses are corporations and I am sure we will be just a hard hit if not worse hit by the reprecussions of smilin Jack in power.

Well Jack is saying that he will LOWER small business tax, so I'm not sure how you have come to that stunning conclusion.

Either way from the what the polls are showing at the moment us dissagreeing about this wont matter the proof will be there in a year when we have a 100billion dollar deficit and people are crying that there are no jobs and socialism failed.

Well, if the NDP win, it will be a minority government that will have to get either Liberal or Conservative support to get anything passed. But, let's wait and see. Sweden has had governments as socialist as the NDP, and they didn't run up massive deficits, go bankrupt or have 25% unemployment.

Left wing ideals will attract no more immigration then we are already facing now. Like I said previously the public purse is too big already but you want to essentially double it, it doesn't work.

I don't think we need to double it. But, an increase wouldn't hurt, especially if it is spent on the right things (ie not war planes from Lockheed Martin).

Edited April 29, 2011 by KeyStone

[KeyStone]

Is it really? Socialism may not always fail, but I'm pretty sure Venezuela is not a good example of where it has succeeded.

Yeah, Venezuela has two major problems: crime and inflation.

Despite that, they are one of the happiest nations on Earth.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/gallery?section=news/bizarre&id=8086691&photo=7

Most of the crime in Venezuela comes from Colombian paramilitaries trying to undermine Venezuela's success.

[RNG]

Yeah, Venezuela has two major problems: crime and inflation.

Despite that, they are one of the happiest nations on Earth.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/gallery?section=news/bizarre&id=8086691&photo=7

Most of the crime in Venezuela comes from Colombian paramilitaries trying to undermine Venezuela's success.

I call BS on that one. Maybe some silly poll says they say they are happy, but I been there. Street crime is rampant. Drugs are wild. It is an absolute Sh*thole. And Hugo is the hero who will make it all better next week, or next month, or next year or in heaven, whenever.

[KeyStone]

I call BS on that one. Maybe some silly poll says they say they are happy, but I been there. Street crime is rampant. Drugs are wild. It is an absolute Sh*thole. And Hugo is the hero who will make it all better next week, or next month, or next year or in heaven, whenever.

Current levels of happiness are usually determined by one's previous state.

Given how bad Venezuela was before Chavez took over, it's no surprise.

Employment is up

Poverty is down

Free education is offered

Free health care is offered

Minimum wage is the highest in Latin America

The work week is one of the shortest in the world

Maternity leave is offered

Literacy rates have soared

Anyways, enough hijacking of this thread, if you want to talk about Venezuela start a new thread.

[TimG]

Given how bad Venezuela was before Chavez took over, it's no surprise.

All paid for by oil revenues. High oil prices can provide cover for an appalling amount of mismanagement (It kept the soliet union alive through the 70s). However, Venezuela's oil production is declining partially because the he can't he the state owned facilities running because of inept management. Edited April 29, 2011 by TimG

[cybercoma]

All paid for by oil revenues.

Where do our oil revenues go?