The REAL issues

[Argus]

The Liberals and NDP, being without any policies people would find worth voting for, started this campaign in the gutter, and have since sunk into the sewers with their filthy, fearmongering, hatemongering attacks on the Conservatives. The Conservatives are the only party which has been campaigning on actual issues.

Honesty and integrity in government. You'll get none from the Liberals - obviously.

Health care: The Liberals have done nothing but harm health care. Every election time it's a "sacred trust" then they forget about it. The NDP have no ideas. Layton showed that at the debate, when he dodged the question from a moderator who specifically said "The cost of health care is skyrocketing, and it sounds like your only idea is to keep throwing money at it". The Conservatives seem genuinely commited to improving health care for everyone, and to looking for alternatives to the present outdated system. Look to Europe for better health care, and to the Conseravatives to try and immitate them.

Finances: All the parties have made big promises. The Liberals won't keep theirs - they never do. The NDP will tax us to death and then some, not only for the policies they've announced but the ones they haven't announced. Do you trust Liberals with *your* money? Do you trust the NDP with *your* money? Ask yourself those questions aloud. The Tories will do their best to cut down on graft, corruption, and patronage. They've promised comittees to appoint people to the traditional patronage jobs - like judges, board heads, etc. They'll cut taxes as they can, through eliminating government fat and waste (and there's tons of it). They won't waste $2 billion on a useless gun registry program, for example, nor spend hundreds of millions putting little flags up in Quebec, nor buy airplanes from Bombardier we don't need.

Crime: It was a telling moment when Martin Ferrier, a violent criminal with 60 convictions for assault, rape and arson, said that he had voted Liberal because he feared the Conservatives proposal to lock up people like him forever. Ferrier has been diagnosed an incurable psychopath, and must be released next month under our current laws. This despite saying he wanted to be the most notorious serial killer in history, and the belief by psychiatrists, the police and parole board that he will commit murder when released. The Liberals have done nothing about violent crime except to appoint bleeding heart judges to the bench who consistently keep their sentences towards the very minimum, despite how ugly the crimes can be. The Conservatives will get tough on crime, especially violent crime.

Defence: The Liberals don't care about defence or security, nor do the NDP. Our airport security is still made up of minimum wage security guards. Our navy and coast guard are tied up at docks for lack of money for fuel and personnel, our army is falling apart, the Liberals eliminated our ports police, the RCMP have pulled people from the borders for lack of money, CSIS is underfunded, and you can still tear up your papers on a plane, call yourself a refugee, and walk out onto a Canadian street a few hours later with no one knowing who you are or where you came from. The Conservatives will properly fund the military, RCMP, CSIS, Coast Guard, and Customs border agencies.

These are real issues which affect real people. Abortion and gay rights; Who gives a crap about issues that are not going to be significantly changed anyway? There'll be no new laws on either in a minority parliament. And everyone knows it.

[takeanumber]

We already know what you think the election should be about Argus.

But let's face it, you don't have agenda control.

Which is probably a good thing, seeing as how most Canadians don't agree with you.

[caesar]

I second you take a number; This election is about keeping Canada independent from American/ Bush control. Let's not vote conservative and follow the American lead. Look where it has taken them.

Our Health Care system should be improved not destroyed completely like Harper may well do. Harper seems to have ideas that we get glimpses of; then he denies them. I do not trust him at all.

The only one of his plans that I agree with is not funding a national day care program. We need to fix our Health Care before we begin any national day care which subsidizes two working parents. Daycare need only to be subsidized to give a hand up and get people off welfare not to take on a parent's duties to raise their children. However, I would support a bigger tax allowance that is realistic in the costs of raising chiildren. People no longer use the friendly known neighbour or relative as that would not come with a government subsidy. I paid for raising my children,I paid for my daycare; why should I pay for parents who can afford to pay their own tax deductible day care. My daughter forwent the extra paycheque to ensure her children get good care and training and bonding with their own parents. Why should I pay to raise your kids.

[Hjalmar]

First of all, Jack Layton is yesterdays man. He thinks we're still living in the 60's. There is no way any country today can prosper with the welfare state mentality that was so prevelant 40 years ago. Most of the Western European countries started to recognize this 10 and 15 years ago and have been revamping policy ever since. They now recognize the need to compete on the world stage and this applies not only to corporations but to governments as well when it comes to taxation. Our society today is very mobile and any governments that charge more for the services they provide than they are worth to the their citizens will lose their most educated, productive and most desired citizens to more tax-friendly jurisdictions.

Social programs, once introduced, are virtually impossible to rescind or scale back. In Canada we have all the social programs necessary --- Indeed we have too many and this is hardly a time to be burdening our citizens further. The more you subsidize poverty and failure the more you get of the same.

The key issues today are:

[1] Accountability We need fiscally prudent governments today with good money and business smarts to handle taxpayers money.

[2] Economy We need to stimulate our economy by reducing taxes, not increasing them.

[3] Health Care There is more to improving our health care than simply throwing more money at it. All provinces have to start recognizing this.

[4] Security The primary duty of any government is security for its citizens and this has now become the top issue for any government ever since 9/11. The most vulnerable countries are the ones with the weakest defence.

[5] Criminal law Governments elected by the people should be making our laws. Our courts and judges are there to interpret our laws, not make them.

[takeanumber]

Accountability: Yes. But all the parties suck on this front.

Economy: No. It's a non-issue in every region with employment less than 10 percent.

Health Care: Yes.

Security: No. It's not even on the radar screen.

Criminal Law: No. It's not even on the radar screen.

The most important issue, at the end of the day, will be accountability and who Canadians fear less:

Martin Porking everything in sight.

or

Duceppe getting Harper to dismantle confederation one piece at a time.

Either way, I will never support the party that hops in bed with the Bloc, ever again.

[Common Sense]

We already know what you think the election should be about Argus.

But let's face it, you don't have agenda control.

Which is probably a good thing, seeing as how most Canadians don't agree with you.

Ugh get a life.ost Canadians except pinnochio have no use for liars, cheats, BS artists, promise breakers, for example lets pay a $500 million default cheque because we don't want the military to have safe helicopters. Hmm wonder how many helicoptyers we could have bought for $500 million. Then $25 Billion reduction in health care by the Fiberals and they said it was because of the deficit. Really? Trudeau who was a communist gave us a $200 Billion deficit and Mulrooney reduced that deficit by a huge amount WITHOUT reducing health care funding.

Fiberals are LIARS and MISMANAGERS and have proved it over and over and over again. HRDC $1.4 Billion boondoggle. Well try this one CIDA $1.6 Billion boondoggle. Adscam $350 million. Bilingualism $1.6 billion per annnum since 1974.

ANYONE WHO VOTEs for this gang of liars and mismanagers should be put in prison for THEFT !!

[takeanumber]

ANYONE WHO VOTEs for this gang of liars and mismanagers should be put in prison for THEFT !!

Oh the Drama.

I can tell you're putting that BFA to good use.

[caesar]

Seems to me Commonsense?????? that we have heard plenty of lies from the Harper gang. After Mulroney, we did have to recover. When governments lower taxes; they just have other means of getting our money. Fees and licenses.

The biggest lie came from Harper who tried to claim he supported Chretien's decision to keep us out of involvement in the Iraq invasion.

Harper would have us kissing Bush butt; no thanks.

I AM CANADIAN; don't want to be America's little puppy dog.

[August1991]

But let's face it, you don't have agenda control.

TalkNumb is right on this. Look at Argus' list. This election was not about any of it.

Harper lost control of the election agenda. This election was attack negative all the way.

The best Tory ad was the crumpled money in the garbage can. The best Liberal ad was the soldiers jumping from the helicopter. The best NDP ad was "the afraid of Martin and Harper? Vote positive..."

[The BQ got off absolutely Scot-Free. The debates were a sin.]

There was no high road in this election and the Tories didn't understand that.

Argus, you started this thread by saying what the REAL issues are. First, are these really the issues? Second, if they are, why didn't Harper make them fron and centre?

[Argus]

We already know what you think the election should be about Argus.

I don't think I'm odd in thinking the election should be about more than gay rights. That's all you seem to care about. But gays represent less than 1% of the population, and only a tiny minority of them want to get married anyway. I think health care is more important to more Canadians than whether gays can get married.

But let's face it, you don't have agenda control.

Which is probably a good thing, seeing as how most Canadians don't agree with you.

You think most agree with you? I don't think even most people on the fringe left agree with you on much. Your best chance of finding political soul mates came on CPACs question session with junior high students.

[Argus]

I second you take a number;  This election is about keeping Canada independent from American/ Bush control.

Uh, er, right. Yeah. I think they took a poll and that came out about 178th on the list of important election issues.

Our Health Care system should be improved not destroyed completely like Harper may well do.

Yes, that's in the secret Conservative Agenda book - available for $29.95 at Coles. Destroying the Economy, destroying the environment, and destroying all life on planet Earth are also high on their lsit.

[Argus]

Accountability:  Yes.  But all the parties suck on this front.

Given only one of them has any experience in power I don't think I'mgoing out on a limb in suggesting your prejudice has a lot more to do with this statement than any kind of logic, judgement or observation.

Economy:  No.  It's a non-issue in every region with employment less than 10 percent.

You think 9% unemployment is acceptable!!! There speaks a man who goes by the "I'm all right, Jack" school of economic policy making. BTW, there is more to the economy than the unemployment rate. And some of us actually look to the future and how it will be affected by today's policies.

Security:  No.  It's not even on the radar screen.

Well, not on your radar screen. But you don't care about anything but gay rights anyway.

Criminal Law:  No.  It's not even on the radar screen.

Seems to be getting a lot of press for something not on the gaydar screen.

[Argus]

Harper would have us kissing  Bush butt; no thanks.

I AM CANADIAN;  don't want to be America's little puppy dog.

Wonderful. Mindless nationalism combined with beer commercial jingoism.

[Argus]

Argus, you started this thread by saying what the REAL issues are.  First, are these really the issues?  Second, if they are, why didn't Harper make them fron and centre?

I think Harper was talking about it at all his little road stops, but the media weren't all that interested. The media wanted to talk about gay rights and abortion. You saw this at one of his press conferences, where reporter after reporter got up to ask, basically the same questions, slightly rephrased, on gay rights and abortions. I think they were hoping that if they kept rephrasing the questions he would rephrase the answers and perhaps make a slip they could use for a big headline.

I don't think the media have served Canada very well this election. It completely went off track of things which are important to Canadians and went slavering after a hoped-for scandal of intollerance. If you went to any of the candidates meetings the only people who ever asked about gay rights were party workers for the NDP/Liberals, or people who were obviously gay. Ordinary people don't give a crap about gay marriage and abortion. They want to know about how the economy will be handled, what the new government will do on taxes, and basics like crime and health care.

I don't think it was so much Harper losing control of the agenda, though as I said in another thread, he could have done more to distract the notoriously shallow media, as the media manufacturing issues and refusing to be moved off them.

[takeanumber]

If I had been wrong, one post would have been enough, Argus.

I'm impressed that you know the word 'gaydar'. I didn't think knuckle draggers knew how to learn new words.

I'm also wondering where you picked up that blanket of victimization. Do they have them on sail at Ikea?

It seems like whenever things don't go your way, you wrap yourself up so tight in that blanket and blame everybody from Liberals to the Media.

Oh well. You can stay wrapped up in that blanket. It suits you.

[August1991]

I don't think the media have served Canada very well this election.

Shoot the messenger.

I don't want to hit you Argus because your responses to others on this thread are - more or less - OK. (I'll read their response to you.)

Harper had no chance for a majority. But he could have been certain of a minority and set the stage for enough seats in Quebec next time round to form a majority.

To English: Harper didn't. Why?

To French: PM PM and Herle may well get their seats, and a humbled "win". This is not 1925-26. This is the Martin Liberals eating humble pie and then, when ready, "falling victim" to an election about "Canada". The next election will be a repeat of Trudeau in 1980. Liberal majority in a couple of months. If Martin wins, this charade will carry on...

To World: Heck, I happen to think Harper could have put this country honestly back together again and made the BQ a federalist party. I wish.

[caesar]

I have had it up to here with all of our candidates; anybody for a good old benevolent dictatorship.

Legalize marijuana; it could go a long way towards helping out our health care costs. It can be home grown; it is an effective medication for quite a few diseases and pain control. Much cheaper than prescriptions and less dangerous side effects. Glaucoma eye drops mis prescribed by an eye specialist could have killed my husband. His feet swelled up double size, eyes puffy and skin dry and flaking. He doesn't have glaucoma but I do; I plan to use marijuana if it works for me.

[takeanumber]

Man.

Randy White.

Gotta love him.

Leave it to a Conservative to find the right time to speak what's really on his mind and convince everybody who's moderate that these guys are jokers.

What a gong show.

What a complete, total, gong show.

Ps. The Media didn't force Randy White to say those things...he said them himself.

[August1991]

Randy White.

And the CBC.

[takeanumber]

I heard about Randy White from CTV.

So what's the issue?

The Liberals got the tape. They put it out there.

It's the same thing the Cons did with the Martin tape. And I didn't read anybody here complaining about it.

But I think that the Randy White tape is much more relevant, because it actually contains a policy position which is widely held by Conservative-Alliance.

The fourth wheel is officially off: at the worse possible time.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Yeah everybody remembers how supportive Stephen Harper was of Brian Mulroney and the former PC's. Especially in the 93 election, just wait a minute did Harper run for the PC's .

How is it that the Liberal's keep on saying that the PC's are dead yet when it comes to ad's they always bring up Brian Mulroney. If it was an Alliance takeover why the hell would you bring up Mulroney's PC government.

They dropped the progressive from their name, those goddamn bastards. :angry:

Randy White believes that elected represenatitives should make decisions affecting society, not appointed judges.

Now listen Takeanumber you seem fine with Canada living in a dictatorship, but some people don't.

[caesar]

No Argus; it is truth and I for one do not want to join the USA in its self destruct mode. Perhaps when Bush get the boot; we can mend fences. However, Harper talks too much like a Bushite to get any respect from me.

Mulroney has done enough damage to Canada already.

[noelandmero]

No Argus; it is truth and I for one do not want to join the USA in its self destruct mode. Perhaps when Bush get the boot; we can mend fences. However, Harper talks too much like a Bushite to get any respect from me.

Mulroney has done enough damage to Canada already.

You know what caesar you can take youre anti-amercica rhetoric and shove it up youre ass. Have you ever lived here? Have you ever paid taxes here? Do you have a clue how good the economy here is? The answer to all I would guess is no. Bush is a great president and will be re-elected and this country will prosper. Last time I checked Americans vote for there president to do what is best for them not you, not france and not for any other idiot who jumps up and down and says what he is doing needs more global support. Since when did the only thing that made Canadians Canadian was hating the US. I am proud to be Canadian my clients are forced to listen to Oilers and eskie games brodcasts through out my office, I fly a canadian flag over the door and have pistures of the mens olympic gold medal hockey team along with oilers pictures scattered through out my office. Instead of being proud to canadian you make me want to tell everyone I am british. Get a clue if Bush was anywhere near as bad as you make him out to be he would invade Canada take our oil and shoot people like you. As you so obviously no nothing about the US other than what the Comunist Brocasting Corp AKA the CBC tells You shut youre pie hole you make everyone else look bad.

[Argus]

I don't think the media have served Canada very well this election.

Shoot the messenger.

I don't want to hit you Argus because your responses to others on this thread are - more or less - OK. (I'll read their response to you.)

I'm not sure I understand your response. Are you denying the media have been biased against the Conservatives? You'll "read their responses to me"?

Harper had no chance for a majority.  But he could have been certain of a minority and set the stage for enough seats in Quebec next time round to form a majority.

Harper had NO chance at making any real inroads in Quebec this close to an election. They don't know him and weren't particularly interested when they had the safe, reliable BQ to jump to. And even if they did know him, when has Quebec ever voted for a non-Quebec leader when one was available - let alone two? The best hope Harper has is winning a minority government during which he can hope to get better known to Quebecers, and to demonstrate to all those quivering Ontarions that he isn't some big bad monster.

To English: Harper didn't.  Why?

???

[Argus]

Leave it to a Conservative to find the right time to speak what's really on his mind and convince everybody who's moderate that these guys are jokers.

Why? What was wrong with what White said? I share his contempt for the courts, and for judges who are appointed not for their intelligence, wisdom, and legal knowledge but how well they can suck up to politicians in power. Heck, a lot of them WERE politicians, Liberal politicians who were booted out, and subsequently given a judgeship as a patronage appointment.

Your problem, and that of a lot of people, is that they don't know anything about Canada's courts. All they know, all you know, about courts, you get from American TV. The American judiciary was set up to be almost a third branch of government. There are numerous checks and balances to keep it from getting out of hand, to keep the judiciary from being misused. There are NO such checks and balances in Canada because our judiciary has never been seen nor was it ever designed to be a third branch - or in our case - second branch - of government. But the Charter has screwed things up and given the courts enormous new powers, equivilent to that of US courts.

Most Canadians don't know that, nor care. It's too complicated. They think the Charter guarantees their fundamental rights. In fact, it guarantees nothing. Our rights were set out long before the Charter in the BNA Act and the Canadian Bill of Rights, among others. To hear the young and the ignorant on Charter issues we were a land with no human rights before Trudeau brought home the Constitution as his "legacy". But it's really just a grandiose piece of paper.

All White said was that elected representatives should be writing laws, not second and third rate suckup lawyers who managed to get themselves appointed to the judiciary. I happen to agree with him.

I know people don't have a lot of trust in politicians these days, but at least we can throw them out when they get too arrogant. There's very little we can do about arrogant judges.