Who's fit to lead the nation

g_bambino · April 13, 2011

It was about as pointless a debate as I ever saw.

Mmmm... Nothing was said in it that I hadn't already heard or read. Pretty bland.

Smallc · April 13, 2011

Mmmm... Nothing was said in it that I hadn't already heard or read. Pretty bland.

It was pretty bland, and that's why Harper was the winner.

ToadBrother · April 13, 2011

It was pretty bland, and that's why Harper was the winner.

I wouldn't call him the winner. He didn't lose, and that was the key thing for him. If there was a winner, it was Layton, who, as I said in another post, was able to fire off some shots at the others, but still managed to put in a considerable number of "Vote for me!" moments. Duceppe I was not impressed with, and Iggy squandered an opportunity.

Edited April 13, 2011 by ToadBrother

g_bambino · April 13, 2011

It was pretty bland, and that's why Harper was the winner.

Maybe! Bland is his specialty. (Not that it's necessarily a bad thing to be a bland politician; I think it's silly when a candidate tries to use superficialities like flare and panache to appeal to voters... *Cough* Trudeau *cough*...)

[c/e]

Edited April 13, 2011 by g_bambino

Smallc · April 13, 2011

If there was a winner, it was Layton, who, as I said in another post, was able to fire off some shots at the others, but still managed to put in a considerable number of "Vote for me!" moments.

Except that most of those moments spoke to no one but NDP voters. So, he might get his 15%....maybe.

GostHacked · April 13, 2011

What? Harper has only been prime minister since 2006; that's five years, not eight. This is now the second election since he was appointed PM, and the only one triggered by a vote of non-confidence.

Feels like he's been in power longer. And I though there were more elections, guess I was wrong.

ToadBrother · April 13, 2011

Except that most of those moments spoke to no one but NDP voters. So, he might get his 15%....maybe.

I have my doubts that the English-language debate is going to swing many votes one way or another. Maybe the French debate will do a better job. I'm just saying that Layton performed the best. Obviously his platform is his weakness, but given what he has to sell, he used the opportunity to sell it.

Smallc · April 13, 2011

Obviously his platform is his weakness, but given what he has to sell, he used the opportunity to sell it.

And so that does little for him. The only person who really stands to gain from the debate is Harper, because he looked like a Prime Minister. He was calm, and above the fray. He managed to change the channel every time he was attacked. Layton did good, but I've seen better from him.

Smallc · April 13, 2011

Todays BoC news doesn't hurt Harper, either:

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110413/monetary-policy-report-110413/

Moonbox · April 13, 2011

The only person who really stands to gain from the debate is Harper, because he looked like a Prime Minister. He was calm, and above the fray. He managed to change the channel every time he was attacked.

It's all a matter of perception. I thought that Harper deflected and dismissed a lot of the criticism and it almost felt like he was reading from a script. I think he did a good job keeping calm and I agree he seemed more Prime Ministerial, but I would have loved to see a little more 'fight' in him. He impressed me more when he was throwing punches back in 2006 and before. I think Harper won that debate simply because he was ganged up on and he kept his cool.

Layton did good, but I've seen better from him.

I think Layton is going to be the one that sees the most votes swing his way after the debate.

Handsome Rob · April 13, 2011

I think Layton is going to be the one that sees the most votes swing his way after the debate.

Wouldn't you say any gains Layton makes will be at the expense of the Liberals, thus giving the Tory's more seats?

Smallc · April 13, 2011

It's all a matter of perception. I thought that Harper deflected and dismissed a lot of the criticism and it almost felt like he was reading from a script. I think he did a good job keeping calm and I agree he seemed more Prime Ministerial, but I would have loved to see a little more 'fight' in him. He impressed me more when he was throwing punches back in 2006 and before. I think Harper won that debate simply because he was ganged up on and he kept his cool.

But polls have shown that what you like in Harper scares most Canadians. They don't want to see the mean streak in him, and he and his handlers know that. Tonight, he needs a repeat of last night's debate.

Smallc · April 13, 2011

Wouldn't you say any gains Layton makes will be at the expense of the Liberals, thus giving the Tory's more seats?

I can see that happening. I can't see the Liberals taking anything from anyone after last night.

blueblood · April 13, 2011

I'd say whoever won was who accomplished their objectives. Harper won because he marketed himself in the way that was needed to appeal to voters. I like a person who talks trash, but a lot of other people probably don't. Harper keyed in on that. Harper not only survived, he put the focus back on the economy and not on some AG draft report. Also painting the other three as a bickering gong show pads his stats. Layton did the best out of the left leaders. At first iggy had him on foreign affairs in the intellectual debate. However, when layton was able to do drive by potshots at iggy, he came out on top as far as the left leaders go. Iggy is getting a free pass from the msm. Iggy tried to get people in an intellectual debate, but nobody was playing that game. Iggy became frustrated, and got sideswiped by layton while harper talked over his head.

M.Dancer · April 13, 2011

Every time I see Layton, I feel compelled to check if I own a new used car, have a wallet, take a shower and return the porn videos...

Edited April 13, 2011 by M.Dancer

ToadBrother · April 13, 2011

I'd say whoever won was who accomplished their objectives. Harper won because he marketed himself in the way that was needed to appeal to voters. I like a person who talks trash, but a lot of other people probably don't. Harper keyed in on that. Harper not only survived, he put the focus back on the economy and not on some AG draft report. Also painting the other three as a bickering gong show pads his stats. Layton did the best out of the left leaders. At first iggy had him on foreign affairs in the intellectual debate. However, when layton was able to do drive by potshots at iggy, he came out on top as far as the left leaders go. Iggy is getting a free pass from the msm. Iggy tried to get people in an intellectual debate, but nobody was playing that game. Iggy became frustrated, and got sideswiped by layton while harper talked over his head.

If it's performance points that count, Layton won. He got a few kicks in to Harper and Iggy, managed to underscore his party's own platform. If it's about who had the most to lose, well Harper won. He didn't fall apart, he held his own. It wasn't a spectacular charismatic performance, but that's not his style and all he needed to do was not bugger things up.

Iggy didn't lose, exactly. He didn't muck it up, but he simply didn't project himself as a Prime Minister in waiting. At the end of the night, Harper won by not losing, Layton won by getting his digs in but still balancing it with self-promotion (which is actually kind of impressive considering the time constraints), and Iggy, I dunno, he said a lot, and even landed a few punches, but it just seemed like a cruise control performance. It can't be viewed as a loss, because he didn't outright stumble or smash into a wall or anything, but it wasn't what he needed to do. It's hard to picture him as a Prime Minister after last night, and that is a big problem.

Duceppe is still the curious one to me. His bashing of multiculturalism, clearly meant to be a message to harder Quebecois vote, suggests to me that he's nervous. There are signs, I think, that the Federalist parties may actually do some harm to the BQ, so I expect to see this magnified tonight.

Iggy's got to do something different, and that different thing is, to my mind, to look at what Layton did, equal parts attack and promotion. Yes, you need to attack the PM, absolutely, but you need to show yourself as the alternative as well, otherwise, you're just playing an average day at Question Period.

Saipan · April 13, 2011

But polls have shown that what you like in Harper scares most Canadians. They don't want to see the mean streak in him

Like for example.

Saipan · April 13, 2011

If it's performance points that count, Layton won. He got a few kicks in to Harper

Like for example.

cybercoma · April 13, 2011

I'm not one to trumpet for Ignatieff, but I don't think his performance was as miserable as everyone is making it seem. He raised serious questions about Harper's leadership, which Harper had to stop, stare at the camera, and talk about something entirely unrelated several times. When it went back to Ignatieff, Harper had painted himself into another topic that Ignatieff was able to attack him on. If Ignatieff's plan was to make Harper look like he's not fit to govern, then he did what he set out to do. The fact that people are willing to continue giving Harper a chance because they don't like the way Ignatieff looks, speaks, or whatever other spurious criteria has been tossed around is quite telling about the state of democracy in Canada.

dre · April 13, 2011

I watched the debate and was left kinda dissapointed that out of 30 million Canadians these are the best guys we could find. I expect to see another Torry minority, and putting ANY of these guys in charge of a majority government would be a very stupid thing for Canadians to do.

KBLT · April 13, 2011

judging by this crass video I saw today:

Some people want to define leadership around physical health.

I think all leaders (aside from Duceppe) are contenders in leading the nation. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I personally would like to see Ignatieff step up because he has the most international experience. I think that he would have a better handling on our international affairs: relations, peacekeeping and diplomacy. In my opinion, we need to be more flexible internationally and we should not base aid on any partisan-leanings. Ignatieff was not involved or near the sponsorship scandal. He is fresh blood and I think that he could garner a respectable government domestically and internationally.

Saipan · April 13, 2011

Every time I see Layton, I feel compelled to check if I own a new used car, have a wallet, take a shower and return the porn videos...

That's only his moustache giving the impression

capricorn · April 13, 2011

But polls have shown that what you like in Harper scares most Canadians. They don't want to see the mean streak in him, and he and his handlers know that. Tonight, he needs a repeat of last night's debate.

Good point Smallc. It was imperative that Harper remain cool and non-combative, and not be goaded into angry retorts when he was under attack. What is interesting is that in the past the opposition has often accused Harper of not being able to get along with the other parties and being mean spirited.

So what did we see in the debates? The opposition flinging accusations at Harper and to each other, just short of shouts of "liar". At times, it was Ignatieff that showed a high level of anger, shouting at Harper that he is a coward. This display went a long way to destroying the mental image they had worked hard to built up about Harper in the public's mind.

In Ignatieff's case his strategists were right to get him to go hard at Harper. They needed to seriously wound Harper. Yet, I doubt they foresaw the unintended consequence that to many of the viewers, he would come out looking meaner and more prone to flying off the handle than Harper.

RNG · April 13, 2011

First, I am glad that the others had the class not to bring up the subject of Layton's health. But in my opinion, it is a valid concern. It is quite destabilizing to have to change leadership part way through a mandate. Our system and that of the US are quite different, but they concider things like the medical file of the presidential candidates needed information.

cybercoma · April 13, 2011

First, I am glad that the others had the class not to bring up the subject of Layton's health. But in my opinion, it is a valid concern. It is quite destabilizing to have to change leadership part way through a mandate. Our system and that of the US are quite different, but they concider things like the medical file of the presidential candidates needed information.

They also elect president, who is completely independent in the executive branch from their congress. Our party leaders are just that, the leaders of parties. If his health fails, someone else will take over the leadership of the NDP. At the end of the day, people ought to be voting for the party that represents their values and who's platform is designed to build the Canada that you want to see.