[email protected] Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Democracy is the degree to which citizens have input and control over political decision making, so there are degrees of democracy. I suggest that Canadians do not have much control over their politics, whether provincial or federal. Yes we have free elections but that is it. The only control we do have is in selecting our representative on Election Day (using a flawed system). Should we make Canada more democratic? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Democracy is the degree to which citizens have input and control over political decision making, so there are degrees of democracy. I suggest that Canadians do not have much control over their politics, whether provincial or federal. Yes we have free elections but that is it. The only control we do have is in selecting our representative on Election Day (using a flawed system). Should we make Canada more democratic? Loaded and subjective question. Why is direct voting 'more' democratic? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
[email protected] Posted April 10, 2011 Author Report Posted April 10, 2011 Loaded and subjective question. Why is direct voting 'more' democratic? What do you mean by 'direct voting'? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 What do you mean by 'direct voting'? Voting on issues directly or whatever you refer to in the OP. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
wyly Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 first off we could join the overwhelming majority of the worlds democracies and have a democratic proportional representation...I want a vote that counts, I want to someone in my locality to represent my view point in parliament, I want to be part of the democratic system...I want in!.. Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Saipan Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Democracy is the degree to which citizens have input and control over political decision making, so there are degrees of democracy. I suggest that Canadians do not have much control over their politics, whether provincial or federal. And Municipal, which in many places became slowly non-existent. Quote
eyeball Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 first off we could join the overwhelming majority of the worlds democracies and have a democratic proportional representation...I want a vote that counts, I want to someone in my locality to represent my view point in parliament, I want to be part of the democratic system...I want in!.. What he said. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Michael Hardner Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 first off we could join the overwhelming majority of the worlds democracies and have a democratic proportional representation...I want a vote that counts, I want to someone in my locality to represent my view point in parliament, I want to be part of the democratic system...I want in!.. We have discussed this here in the past. I definitely don't see the value in PR, fully implemented anyway. Is there any campaign for it in Canada right now, officially? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
William Ashley Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 (edited) The Social Party advocates for 'advisory council''s where every citizens (tier I) has a vote in the council - there would also be one for tier II citizens, as well as one for residents and one for anyone with a 2nd Bank of Canada Account (each account with 1 vote). Individuals could assign their vote to another person -- (although it could be changed at a later date. These would be unpaid councils, that would have seating available to the highest vote holders (everyone else could vote in absentee via the 2nd Bank system (secured to make communications secure and anonymous and verifiable. )) Also though in addition to the major seatings, each of the 4 classes would have a few wildcard seats drawing for straws more or less of anyone that shows up and wants in if there is no seating.. (but hey even the commons and senate have trouble filling) Instead of voting on leaders people would vote on issues. Proposals would be prioritized into a three or four "classes" to be introduced. The "Major Class" for the largest proxy holders, the middle proxy for those with the next largest class perhaps around 1000-5000 proxies the grouping of 50-1000 people, and the small of less than 50. Each catagory would allow for the introduction of proposals - and "comments" of a limited size for public reading - where as anyone could submit a document for the public record. The 4 class system allows for more than just the heavy weights to have inputs into the system - in a way as a means of petitions. Meanwhile introduction in each class would be prioritized by the endorsment votes it was given in each class. Even if proposals from the lower groups are turned down, it still allows a medium of introduction. After the 4 main classes are done, a wildcard proposal would be pulled at random. It would act a bit like a lower house under the commons.. but one with massive populist insight. If the house agrees on the proposal it could be passed on to the senate to be introduced officially (if possible) or as a petition or by a commons MP. MP's could also be proxy holders would not get paid by the government for any duties in the advisory council. This with IPV6 (each citizen having their own IP) and their telemere degredation code, body magnetic resonance field or some other algorythm for self modifying pass code... and biometric backups adds a small layer of protection on the access to both the second bank account and voting system... so it could be made difficult to spoof. Of course facility security audits could also be conducted. But the biometrics tied to the individual IP and tracking of the IP location via a simple tracking code (in rural areas) via a wifi network would make the process "very safe" (governmental abuse can happen anyway) The IP would actually be "hidden" but a constantly changing code based on some modifiers specific to the person could be utilized to mask the code. To make it identifiable on the server end but unknown for anyone "catching the code" The code could be multiswithcing following an individually assigned scramble input seperate from the biometric marker. Edited April 10, 2011 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
eyeball Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 We have discussed this here in the past. I definitely don't see the value in PR, fully implemented anyway. Is there any campaign for it in Canada right now, officially? Be patient, perhaps after another three or four $300 million dollar elections in quick succession the need to reform our system will start sinking in. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
[email protected] Posted April 10, 2011 Author Report Posted April 10, 2011 first off we could join the overwhelming majority of the worlds democracies and have a democratic proportional representation...I want a vote that counts, I want to someone in my locality to represent my view point in parliament, I want to be part of the democratic system...I want in!.. Exactly. And not just PR we need mechanisms that are not mediated by parties and political elites such as Recall and CI. Also we need to make our legislatures independent from the executive to help break up party discipline. Quote
Bryan Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Local representation is far more democratic than PR for me, especially in a country this big with such diverse concerns. If anything I think we should find ways to make the regional voices stronger, not weaker. Quote
Smallc Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Be patient, perhaps after another three or four $300 million dollar elections in quick succession the need to reform our system will start sinking in. So how do you think that things like PR will result in fewer elections? Quote
ToadBrother Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Democracy is the degree to which citizens have input and control over political decision making, so there are degrees of democracy. I suggest that Canadians do not have much control over their politics, whether provincial or federal. Yes we have free elections but that is it. The only control we do have is in selecting our representative on Election Day (using a flawed system). Should we make Canada more democratic? No, we should force our MPs to start doing their jobs. Quote
ToadBrother Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Exactly. And not just PR we need mechanisms that are not mediated by parties and political elites such as Recall and CI. Also we need to make our legislatures independent from the executive to help break up party discipline. We had that in the 17th and 18th centuries. It wasn't exactly a recipe for better govermnent. Quote
wyly Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 I definitely don't see the value in PR, fully implemented anyway.supporters of political parties that benefit from the flawed system never see value in it...similar to how Ghadaffi's supporters see no value in improving their political system to allow an opposition...Is there any campaign for it in Canada right now, officiallyNDP and Green both want PR that accounts for one in five to one in four Canadians...naturally the two leading parties want nothing to do with a electoral system that more accurately reflects their support because they both benefit in the flaws of the current setup... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Smallc Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 naturally the two leading parties want nothing to do with a electoral system that more accurately reflects their support because they both benefit in the flaws of the current setup... Except that it isn't a flaw. Our system is about picking representatives and forming stable governments from that. That's not what PR is about. Quote
Bryan Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 supporters of political parties that benefit from the flawed system never see value in it...similar to how Ghadaffi's supporters see no value in improving their political system to allow an opposition... Really? You're comparing our democracy to a military dictatorship that kills people who dissent? Can we not have some semblance of a serious discussion on this site? This kind of hyperbole is really getting old. Quote
wyly Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Local representation is far more democratic than PR for me, especially in a country this big with such diverse concerns. If anything I think we should find ways to make the regional voices stronger, not weaker. PR has better local representation, I have no local representation now and likely never will in my lifetime or in my kids lifetime as long as we live where we do now...I might as well be living in Libya and never a have voice in it's governing...I WANT REPRESENTATION!... I WANT IN!... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Smallc Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 I have no local representation now Yes you do. Whether or not you voted for your representative, they still work for you. They're still your representative no matter which party they're part of. Quote
wyly Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Really? You're comparing our democracy to a military dictatorship that kills people who dissent? I have no representation in government just like the libyan opposition I will never have representation as long as retain this flawed system....Can we not have some semblance of a serious discussion on this site? This kind of hyperbole is really getting old. We can not have some semblance of a serious discussion as long as people like you dismiss and downplay the desire and need for democratic reform...I want a vote that has meaning...I want IN the democratic process! Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Yes you do. Whether or not you voted for your representative, they still work for you. They're still your representative no matter which party they're part of. BULL SHITE!..my local rep does not care about my opinion she does not represent my view of canada she will never accept my view ever... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
eyeball Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 So how do you think that things like PR will result in fewer elections? I acknowledge there's no guarantee PR will always mean fewer elections but I'm hoping that an increasingly weak public appetite for initiating pointless one's might allow for a long-term experiment that allows people time to get more comfortable with the idea. A coalition might do that. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
ToadBrother Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Really? You're comparing our democracy to a military dictatorship that kills people who dissent? Can we not have some semblance of a serious discussion on this site? This kind of hyperbole is really getting old. Don't exclude yourself from that. A day or two ago you basically dismissed Parliamentary supremacy as a silly, justifiably ignorable anachronism. Quote
ToadBrother Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 I acknowledge there's no guarantee PR will always mean fewer elections but I'm hoping that an increasingly weak public appetite for initiating pointless one's might allow for a long-term experiment that allows people time to get more comfortable with the idea. A coalition might do that. And a set of stable coalition parties, like we see in Germany, is different in what way? Quote
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