What's happened? What can we do?

[DAC]

I know some of you don't want to hear this stuff , but the bible does say cry aloud and spare not.

Digby, come on! Enough is enough! This business of grabbing a few words out of their context and throwing them around is not far from an attack on Jesus Christ, whom you profess to serve. It's the kind of things atheists who hate Christianity do. Is that where you want to stand?

You grabbed four words from Isaiah 58:1 "Cry aloud, spare not; Lift up your voice like a trumpet; Tell My people their transgression, And the house of Jacob their sins."

This was a command to the prophet Isaiah, with only the force of an example for the rest of us. Further, he was not told to cry aloud to the world, but to the people of God.

And yes, you're right. I don't agree that Hosea 4 is a message to us, in the sense you are using it. It is a message to the church of that day, and we can assume that it speaks to the church today, if it follows the same paths as Israel did. But this forum is not the church. There are quite a few who join the discussion who explicitly reject Christianity.

The Bible's message warns of judgment, but it is not a slash and bash vitriolic attack on people around. It speaks soberly of sin and its consequences, and calls all people to see the love of God in Christ, who gave his life to cover the guilt of our sin, so we may enjoy God and his blessing. Your throwing around of condemnatory texts taken out of their contexts does not contribute, and gives an extremely distorted picture of Christ.

[DAC]

This kind of attitude is exactly the problem.

You can't pay people to be better parents.

It's not lack of money, it's lack of spirituality.

I could hardly agree more that lack of spirituality is the base issue, Michael.

But I'm not suggesting paying people to be better parents. I'm suggesting removing present disincentives to forming a two parent family. At present, we penalize people for marrying! That does not help, but rather hinders.

[DAC]

No that is not why we outlaw child porn. We outlaw it because filming it is a crime, and because it is generally disgusting.

There I disagree with you. Drawing child porn is also a crime, I believe. The issue is only partly that filming it is a crime.

There I disagree with you. Drawing child porn is also a crime, I believe. The issue is only partly that filming it is a crime.

You are also confusing correlation and causation.

Read my previous post again. I specifically recognized that correlation does not imply causation. It simply shows that there is something common between homosexual behaviour and family problems, and it seems to me that is more than sufficient grounds to be wary. I'm not claiming grounds to make it a crime, but grounds to draw back from encouraging it.

Personally, I would say that until the homosexual movement gets together and makes very plain that groups such as NAMBLA have no place in their movement - that means excluding them from gay pride parades, for example - we should decline to allow homosexuals to adopt children. But at least there are grounds not to encourage formation of homosexual families.

There are no such grounds shown here yet.

A loving homosexual couple may well be as fit to parent as a loving heterosexual couple. There's no statistical way to say they're not.

Michael, I'm not applying statistics here. If a heterosexual couple were part of a movement which included advocates of sexual intercourse between adults and children, I'd oppose their being permitted to adopt, too. I've heard one homosexual proposal (2 weeks ago, in response to conservative criticism) that they ought to give NAMBLA and groups like it the heave. But for years the homosexual movement has welcomed these perverts as part of them. That says something very negative. I don't believe in playing risky games with our children.

[DAC]

August1991 wrote

So, DAC, your long post suggests too often that the State should intervene to somehow change people. It's another form of social engineering. I don't think it will work but a lot of effort will be wasted.

I agree with you that social engineering by the State has severe problems. I favour as minimal a government as we can manage, because I believe government is inherently inefficient, and the exercise of power is a strong temptation to corruption.

But I don't think my proposals were as much pro State intervention as you read them.

My first suggestion to encourage stronger families was a revision of the tax code to remove the present added cost to marriage - that includes common law as well as formal marriage.

Consider two people who each earn $15,000. The man gets a new job which pays him $30,000, so the woman quits her job, they marry, and begin to raise a family. The result is that their tax bill goes up, on the same combined income. Not only is he paying in a higher bracket, but they have lost several hundred dollars in their deductions. That is a disincentive to forming a family. The welfare system, if I understand it correctly, is even worse in this respect.

I'm not asking for social engineering by the government, but that the government take away tax laws and welfare rules which make it advantageous for parents to live separately and not admit to being a family. That normally means the mother raises the children and they may not even know their father.

My second suggestion was the only one which might be fairly accused of "social engineering". The proposal that social benefits be structured to ensure that two incomes aren't needed to support the family does move that direction. It's also the proposal I am most uncomfortable with. But what's a forum like this, if it's not a place to try on some of these ideas and see if they can be shot down?

My third suggestion was again a proposal to diminish government interference, to back off the attempts to remove parental authority and avenues of discipline.

So what do you think?

[Michael Hardner]

There I disagree with you. Drawing child porn is also a crime, I believe. The issue is only partly that filming it is a crime.

I don't think so.

Read my previous post again. I specifically recognized that correlation does not imply causation. It simply shows that there is something common between homosexual behaviour and family problems, and it seems to me that is more than sufficient grounds to be wary. I'm not claiming grounds to make it a crime, but grounds to draw back from encouraging it.

It isn't. You can draw correlations between silly things that have nothing to do with each other, like teddy bear ownership and liklihood to commit murder.

You can't do anything with correlation.

Michael, I'm not applying statistics here. If a heterosexual couple were part of a movement which included advocates of sexual intercourse between adults and children, I'd oppose their being permitted to adopt, too.

Oh. Well, I don't think those situations are analagous at all.

I've heard one homosexual proposal (2 weeks ago, in response to conservative criticism) that they ought to give NAMBLA and groups like it the heave. But for years the homosexual movement has welcomed these perverts as part of them. That says something very negative. I don't believe in playing risky games with our children.

I don't think they do welcome those movements as part of them.

Anyway, I think that homosexuals can be as good as heterosexuality at parenting, but I don't think that's an argument that will go anywhere. I mainly wanted to make the point about the abuse of statistical science.

[Digby]

Dac what your wanting from me may be the excact opposite of what the pages of the bible want from me .

You want me to shut up , because i may be putting you in the spot light .

Have you ever Read Ezekiel 2 -3 , If there was an ezekiel around would you be asking him to shut up ?

you relise if he did shut up it would be very bad for him .

To start with Isaiah as well as other prophets was to speak to the House of Isreal , and as you can see from my Post Canada in the bible i beleave most Canadians are decendents of The tribes of Isreal , English Canada being of the tribe of Joseph in whom Isreal before Death said would Carry His Name .

You Totally ignored the Part of Hosea 4 that i used as a time Clock , EVEN THE FISHES OF THE SEA SHALL BE TAKEN ALSO . could only be talking about the time we are in now, so if there is a scripture that has a message for our generation . Don't You as a So called man of God think this Message should be brought out in the public?

You want me to Shut Up about Harlots and mystery babalon the great and in your Bible its in BIg Black letters REV 17 One of only a few verses found in big black letters so i would assume the one who inspired the scriptures thought it was a very important message for the readers . Maybe You have No Idea What this very mportant Message of your bible is speaking about , but i Do .

According to Men like you what this world needs to watch out for is Legalist , or folks Determined to Keep Gods Laws , But according to this clear Scripture in Hosea 4 what corrupts the World is the opposite ,men who lead people to forget Gods Laws .

Lets all remember the Patience of the Saints (what Makes them Different) HERE are they that keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus !

According to those of your camp that would be about the only way to do it wrong , when the bible says the Exact opposite , its the only way to do it right!

In My beleafs im Doing what im Suppose to do , if it don't fit the beleafs of a prespertarian , well thats too Bad I know where the prespertarian church is i Been Driveing By them for years .

[DAC]

Have you ever Read Ezekiel 2 -3 , If there was an ezekiel around would you be asking him to shut up ?

Digby, if you were Ezekiel and sent by God, I would not ask you to shut up. But it is plain that you are not.

I have read the passages you mentioned. What is more, I've studied them. I've also studied the history of people who, like you are doing, have grabbed a piece of Scripture that seems to fit our times and said, "See, that's what God was talking about". 100 years later they are only footnotes in history.

The Bible tells us what it is talking about. At the end of John's gospel, we're told it was written so we could know Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us it gives us what we need to serve God thoroughly. It is not a future history book, other than in telling us that when the end comes (and nobody but God knows when that will be) Jesus will return and the dead will be raised for judgment.

If you want to debate its interpretation, I'd suggest we do it off this forum. That's not what this forum is about. I'll be glad to try to explain in detail the problems with your interpretation, and listen to your arguments. But that's not here.

[Digby]

The Question In this Topic is what happend to the traditional Family Values .

I Beleave the Answer is in Hosea 4 , And im Not Scarred to do it in Public .

Could there be a Great Mess of confusion Set up and useing Christ Name . Leading our Society down the Path To distruction ?

Remember in Mathew 24 Christ warned about those useing his name .

Remember in Amoes , we was to get a famine in the last day ,not a famine of bread or water but a famine of truth .

The true church according to Daniel just before the end would have their power scattered .

So the downslide in morals of this earth is caused by an explosion of false prophets , and the real men of God being almost unfindable .

Could we be in that Day NOW?

Actually if you study ,the real christians over the years was mostly erased by mother rome and her daughters .

AND I SAW A WOMAN (church) drunken with the blood of the saints ,and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus .and when i saw her i wondered with great admiration .

So if those like me have indeed turned into footnotes in History , I guess amoes did Know the Future AMOES:8;11-12 .

Christ will not Marry any thin but a Virgin at his return , his Wife deserves to be dressed in White .

[Digby]

But Black Dog we have only been talking about whats leading to our troubles .

Nobody has told you where our troubles are going to lead too yet .

ezekiel 5 would be a good place to start if any body ever did want to know the end result of this downhill slide of morals we are on, beware of the day the other nations of the earth pass us in works .

[Black Dog]

Nobody has told you where our troubles are going to lead too yet .

And you know what? A collection of apocryphal stories from a primitive Semetic desert tribe, set down thousands of years after the fact by Greek scholars and translated several times over a couple of thousand years after that isn't going to give us the answers. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Digby]

The answers are very simple and clear ,leave the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil alone if you got any interest in eternal life .

but from the begining that old serpent has been telling man he can eat of that tree and live ,that you can be as Gods Knowing good from Evil .

respect Gods Laws and wisdom or beleave in him is a simple way of saying it all , satan will come along and say no need to respect Gods laws make your own .

the answers are that simple , man should not touch Gods testamony. Satan has Been here spreading this message (forget Gods Wisdom )from the beggining .

[August1991]

A collection of apocryphal stories from a primitive Semetic desert tribe...

Amen.

My first suggestion to encourage stronger families was a revision of the tax code to remove the present added cost to marriage - that includes common law as well as formal marriage.

The issue here is what is the "unit" of taxation: should it be the family or the individual. I tend to agree with your suggestion. (Let me think about it and in particulr, why it hasn't been done...)

The proposal that social benefits be structured to ensure that two incomes aren't needed to support the family does move that direction.

I disagree strongly. Families don't "need" two incomes. It's a choice. The government shouldn't influence that choice in any way.

IMV, the idea of a national day care plan is just as bad as what you propose. (Is it not ironic that people talk about encouraging home care to relieve the burden on our health system while simultaneously wanting to create a day care system?)

At the same time, I wonder why State education starts at age 6 and State day care at age 4.

However this is done, it should be entirely a provincial issue.

My third suggestion was again a proposal to diminish government interference, to back off the attempts to remove parental authority and avenues of discipline.

Is this really a problem?

But what's a forum like this, if it's not a place to try on some of these ideas and see if they can be shot down?

You have my full agreement.

[DAC]

Black Dog, I can't blame you for being irritated at Digby, but you should be a little careful to get your facts straight.

A collection of apocryphal stories from a primitive Semetic desert tribe, set down thousands of years after the fact by Greek scholars and translated several times over a couple of thousand years after that isn't going to give us the answers.

For a start, the writings in the Old Testament were in Hebrew, and the most extreme views of those who have studied them recognize that most of them, at least, were put down in writing at some time close to the times they describe. We have Hebrew manuscripts of them dating back to well before the time of Christ. Greek scholars aren't in it.

Well, I suppose you could call Luke and Paul Greek scholars. The New Testament was in Greek originally, and while there was a time that people argued that parts of it had been written as much as a couple of centuries after Christ, that's long gone. The worst critics admit that most of it at least was written in the first generation. They may not believe it, but they recognize the timing.

Translation doesn't have much to do with it. If you're suggesting inaccuracy, you'll find surprising consistency, if you check out the translations. The worst of them, taken as a whole, is a reliable guide to the original.

And for the record, I'm afraid you're mistaken in your view that it won't give us the answers, even if the answers it gives are not spelled out the way Digby thinks. But again, that's another topic.

[Digby]

One Day Stephen witnessed to the high priest about the tribe of Joseph ect.

He accused them of Allowing their religion to be full of paganism and corrupting Isreal .

I guess we all Know the end result the high priest was so irratated they ran upon him and stoned him and killed him , they just could not stand listening to the holy spirit these pagan dipping high priest .You can all read this story in acts 7 ,the so called men of God could not stand it when a real man of God showed .

Even The Lord Jesus had much trouble with these type of men ,always trying to stop his witness so people would beleave their false witness .

[DAC]

Even The Lord Jesus had much trouble with these type of men ,always trying to stop his witness so people would beleave their false witness .

Digby, I haven't tried to stop your witness. Nor for that matter has anybody else. In fact the unbelievers in this discussion have been exceedingly patient with your ranting.

What I have tried to do, both in private communication, and in the public forum when you rejected that, is to get you to give a better witness. Think of Priscilla and Aquila taking Apollos aside to help him to understand better, so he would be a better agent of God.

[August1991]

I know this thread is supposed to be about the traditional family and so on but since you seem to be on this religious jag, can I make a comment?

I must be deeply suspicious about anyone who claims to have the "truth" and then tells me that if I don't accept this "truth", I am going to suffer for eternity.

If the purpose is to inspire faith or trust, isn't that kind of a dumb way to start a sales pitch?

[DAC]

I must be deeply suspicious about anyone who claims to have the "truth" and then tells me that if I don't accept this "truth", I am going to suffer for eternity.

If the purpose is to inspire faith or trust, isn't that kind of a dumb way to start a sales pitch?

Think of it in terms of dealing with your doctor. Before your doctor tells you that you need an operation, he explains that your arteries are plugged and if you don't do something about it you're going to die.

Of course most reasonable Christians don't start out screaming to strangers, "You're about to die if you don't accept this message." For one thing, we think it's a good idea to try to establish some credibility, first, preferably by the effect of a changed life.

[Digby]

Been Fishing just got in .

I certainly never told any body they was headed for eternal suffering.

and i really don't expect to change to many folks .

Im from a different camp , i beleave the truth is dangerous knowledge , or should i say judgement begins at the house of God .

Blind men are not judged for what they did not see in my opinion .If your not blind ,you got no excuse .so beware of the truth

[Digby]

1 more thing ,if i did beleave you guys was in trouble for eternity i would tell you ,but i don't .

what im trying to maybe warn about is short term stuff like later in this life time or in your childrens life time , i beleave this world will see some very hard times because of the false prophets amonst us .

but you guys all frying for eternity thats a mainstream beleaf , dac probly beleaves it , just don't want to tell you .

[Reverend Blair]

Just a wild shot at trying to find something out. What constitutes a traditional family?

[DAC]

Just a wild shot at trying to find something out. What constitutes a traditional family?

So far as I know, it's usually taken to be a man and woman who are married, and their children if they have any.

I think it's a pretty short tradition in a limited part of the world. The real traditional family would be what we call the extended family. It includes grandparents, perhaps great grandparents, possibly aunts and uncles and their children, all lving, if not in the same home, in a fairly close area. That means child care is never a problem!

[Reverend Blair]

I think it's a pretty short tradition in a limited part of the world. The real traditional family would be what we call the extended family. It includes grandparents, perhaps great grandparents, possibly aunts and uncles and their children, all lving, if not in the same home, in a fairly close area. That means child care is never a problem!

Ah, so it does take a village to raise a child.

Has it occured to you that a lot of the "family values" argument was previously taken care of by consensual silence and turning a blind eye.

Example...bachelors and old maids. They've always been there. There were a lot of rumours. It wasn't a real problem though, because they kept quiet. They aren't quiet anymore, they want you to acknowledge them. Does that really change anything?

The latest and most common (meant in the most derogatory way possible) version of family values is little more than an attempt by those stuck in the old testament to force the rest of us to live within their limited grasp of reality. Silence and hypocrisy isn't enough, only regressive laws and idiocy will suffice at this point.

Hitler had a cure for gays too. He murdered them, just like he did to Jews and Gypsies. I've fallen down a couple of hills in my lifetime. It was wet and steep and...I learned to watch where the hell I stepped. Maybe you oughtta give that a shot, DAC and Digby.

[Digby]

What it Comes Down too, is there a God ? Or is there not a God ?

Should we make up our own God to suit our lust and desires ?

Or Should we accept the God of the Old and new testament of our bibles ,The one who is suppose to be the same yesterday ,today and forever ?

I think we all know the God of the Bible was against Homosexuality as well as many other things . So are we just going to get rid of him and the bible ?Or will we make up our own God to suit what ever life styles we chose to live ?

What ever you want to do is ok if there is no God , Or if The god that exist is a very easy going type Guy that just loves every body regardless of what they want to throw in his face . BUT WHAT IF THE GOD OF OUR BIBLES DOES EXIST ?

Whats gone out of this society , is FEAR OF GOD . Thats ok if hes all just a myth , but i in my beleafs Think he does exist , and that he changes not .

I can't like some make up a God to fit what ever society calls for , I fear the One of our old testaments is coming to this earth someday , and he will have it done his way !

[Reverend Blair]

You have no right to force your beliefs on the rest of us. When you speak of laws that recognise only your version of the traditional family, that is what you are doing.

Laws that protect the rights of gays, on the other hand, do not force those views on you. We do not require that you marry somebody of the same sex. We have taken great pains to not force your church into performing same-sex marriages. You can do as you want within your own lives. I'll bet you don't have a lot of contact with gays in those now.

Edited July 3, 2004 by Reverend Blair

[August1991]

Interesting debate, guys, but keep it respectful.

Think of it in terms of dealing with your doctor. Before your doctor tells you that you need an operation, he explains that your arteries are plugged and if you don't do something about it you're going to die.

Of course most reasonable Christians don't start out screaming to strangers, "You're about to die if you don't accept this message." For one thing, we think it's a good idea to try to establish some credibility, first, preferably by the effect of a changed life.

DAC, you have just replaced faith with the scientific method.

A doctor can advise me about arteries because people have conducted experiments and drawn conclusions. These can then be used to make predictions that turn out to be true.

Nobody who claims that I will exist for all eternity in hell if I don't believe in Christ has done anything of the sort.