Federal Election Polls

[ToadBrother]

Looks like Nanos is reporting the Tories up by 8 points. It is one poll and it is Nanos, but I'm wondering if we are indeed seeing some reversal in NDP fortunes here. If the Tories can solidify support to the high-30s, I think there's at least a fighting chance they can get a small majority.

[Bryan]

I don't really care about that.

You don't care that they proclaim themselves upfront as socialist, but urn around and deride others who are only agreeing with them?

[fellowtraveller]

Give it up Bob, avoiding terms like socialist are part of the NDP program. The term is seen as pejorative and will frighten the children and keep them from voting NDP. So, the NDP avoids any reference to it although clearly a significan number of members and a significant amount of policy is clearly and proudly socialist. In reality, all the parties support elements of socialism, it is a matter of degree. Only a defensive moron would argue that the NDP (and Bloc) platforms are not more socialist than say the CPC.

The same applies to 'separatism', the Bloc and PQ are selective in using the term as it also has too much baggage. Obviously they are separatist, it is part of their core mandate but they too don't want to prematurely invoke the bogeyman at the heart of their philosophy

The Liberals do the same dance with 'coaltion', they'll gladly form or join one but know the risks implicit in talking about it in advance.

[Smallc]

You don't care that they proclaim themselves upfront as socialist, but urn around and deride others who are only agreeing with them?

You didn't answer my question. Their Constitution in this case is of little relevance. They won't be forming a majority, and they probably won't be forming government. Even if they did form government, they're going to have to answer to at least one other party. The more socialistic elements of the party (the party is more than that) are going to be kept on a very short leash.

[Smallc]

Give it up Bob, avoiding terms like socialist are part of the NDP program.

I'm not part of the NDP program. I'm not even part of the NDP. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Hell, even Ignatieff said that the NDP weren't socialist.Throwing around terms and demonizing them is directly from the right wing playbook.

[nittanylionstorm07]

I'm sure whatever loss for the NDP/gain for the Tories/Libs Nanos is showing (although it's still decently within the margin of error) will be wiped out and then some after the smear story.

[Bob]

The fundamental elements of our economy. They are not socialist. There is no central planning or widespread public/cooperative ownership, and the NDP isn't proposing that.

You keep saying that, but you offer nothing in the way of proof.

No that isn't. Liberals want to do the same thing often. Are they socialist? This remains a capitalist system, and the NDP hasn't said they want to change that basic principle.

I realize I don't own the term - but then neither do you.

With all due respect, you are being condescending. You have no idea what my educational background is. I'm done having this discussion with you.

What is the "basic principle" of our capitalist system? There is no such thing. Is there an opposing "basic principle" of a socialist system? Our economy is affected by government decisions, whether it be a more free market approach or a more interventionist approach. The NDP are in favour of significant government intervention. Is there some magic number that quantifies a party or state as socialistic with respect to some variable? Should we evaluate percentage of GDP attributed to government spending? What's the threshold for socialism - 30%? 45%? 60%? The NDP is socialistic. End of story. You don't like that descriptive term for your party? Fine. Feel free to disagree.

With respect to your education, I am honestly not trying to insult you. All I'm saying is that I can tell you've not studied economics at an academic level. I have studied economic (and politics) at an academic level. That's not to say I possess final authority on what's right and wrong, but it is somewhat annoying to speak with you on some of these issues because you simply don't know what you're talking about.

Although the Liberals tend to use less aggressive socialistic rhetoric than the NDP, the Liberal Party is also socialistic, just to a lesser degree than the NDP.

[Smallc]

What is the "basic principle" of our capitalist system? There is no such thing. Is there an opposing "basic principle" of a socialist system?

If you really think this, then Im not the one with the lack of economic understanding. Like I said though, I'm done with this discussion.

[Bob]

Give it up Bob, avoiding terms like socialist are part of the NDP program. The term is seen as pejorative and will frighten the children and keep them from voting NDP. So, the NDP avoids any reference to it although clearly a significan number of members and a significant amount of policy is clearly and proudly socialist. In reality, all the parties support elements of socialism, it is a matter of degree. Only a defensive moron would argue that the NDP (and Bloc) platforms are not more socialist than say the CPC.

The same applies to 'separatism', the Bloc and PQ are selective in using the term as it also has too much baggage. Obviously they are separatist, it is part of their core mandate but they too don't want to prematurely invoke the bogeyman at the heart of their philosophy

The Liberals do the same dance with 'coaltion', they'll gladly form or join one but know the risks implicit in talking about it in advance.

Of course, it's all language management. There are some negative connotations associated with the terms "socialist" and "separatist", and of course the NDP and Bloc Quebecois tend to try to evade those labels. At the end of the day, the term "socialism" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. In his view, the NDP isn't socialistic enough to be defined as socialistic. You and I disagree.

[Bob]

I'm not part of the NDP program. I'm not even part of the NDP. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Hell, even Ignatieff said that the NDP weren't socialist.Throwing around terms and demonizing them is directly from the right wing playbook.

Ignatieff's description of the NDP is irrelevant. Moreover, it's entirely expected that a Ignatieff would avoid describing the NDP as socialistic because of the ideological leanings of his party. If the NDP are socialists, then the Liberal Party are pretty close to socialism - a label Ignatieff wants to avoid.

[BubberMiley]

The NDP is socialistic. End of story. You don't like that descriptive term for your party? Fine. Feel free to disagree.

Then how, say, has the current Manitoba NDP, in practice, been more socialistic than the conservative government before them?

Just before they left office, the tories socialized the privately owned gas company in Manitoba. In response, the NDP ran years and years of successive balanced budgets.

Feel free to talk about the undergraduate courses you've taken in economics rather than answer the question.

[Smallc]

If the NDP are socialists, then the Liberal Party are pretty close to socialism

[Bob]

I wonder what Canada's "basic principle" is consider that we've got a mixed economy.... I guess Canada must have an economic identity crisis!

[cybercoma]

If you want to know how the NDP handles Socialists read this article, then come back and admit you're wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waffle

[Bob]

Then how, say, has the current Manitoba NDP, in practice, been more socialistic than the conservative government before them?

Just before they left office, the tories socialized the privately owned gas company in Manitoba. In response, the NDP ran years and years of successive balanced budgets.

Feel free to talk about the undergraduate courses you've taken in economics rather than answer the question.

I'm not familiar with the economic situation in Manitoba or the events you're speaking about.

[Smallc]

If you want to know how the NDP handles Socialists read this article,

You don't understand though. There's no way to qualify the word socialist. That means that Bob can just throw it around, no matter if he's talking about the NDP or the Liberals.....

[Bob]

You don't understand though. There's no way to qualify the word socialist. That means that Bob can just throw it around, no matter if he's talking about the NDP or the Liberals.....

I said quantify, not qualify. Moreover, I find it rich that the person with the high-school understanding of these issues who speaks of the "basic principles" of our economy is trying to ridiculing me. Even one with a simplistic understanding should be able to concede that what is socialism to one is not necessarily socialism to the other. It's to bad the label "socialism" offends you when used to describe the NDP, but it's accurate.

[Smallc]

Even one with a simplistic understanding should be able to concede that what is socialism to one is not necessarily socialism to the other. It's to bad the label "socialism" offends you when used to describe the NDP, but it's accurate.

[ToadBrother]

I said quantify, not qualify. Moreover, I find it rich that the person with the high-school understanding of these issues who speaks of the "basic principles" of our economy is trying to ridiculing me. Even one with a simplistic understanding should be able to concede that what is socialism to one is not necessarily socialism to the other. It's to bad the label "socialism" offends you when used to describe the NDP, but it's accurate.

Oh good grief people. Socialism isn't an ideology, it's a continuum of ideologies. This is the problem I've always had with dullards proclaiming that because some guy believes in public medicine he must be a Communist.

[Bob]

Oh good grief people. Socialism isn't an ideology, it's a continuum of ideologies. This is the problem I've always had with dullards proclaiming that because some guy believes in public medicine he must be a Communist.

Are you suggesting that describing the NDP as socialistic is similar to a person describing an advocate of public medicine as a communist? It should be pretty obvious that the former description is fair while the latter isn't.

[Harry]

Leger Poll

Canada

Conservative 36%

NDP 31%

Liberal 21%

BLOC 7%

Green 4%

Atlantic

Conservative 34%

NDP 33%

Liberal 28%

Green 4%

Quebec

NDP 40%

Bloc 27%

Liberal 15%

Conservative 15%

Green 2%

Ontario

Conservative 38%

NDP 30%

Liberal 27%

Green 4%

Prairies

Conservative 49%

NDP 30%

Liberal 16%

Green 4%

Alberta

Conservative 63%

NDP 18%

Liberal 13%

Green 5%

British Columbia

Conservative 42%

NDP 32%

Liberal 16%

Green 9%

http://www.legermarketing.com/documents/POL/114301ENG.pdf

[BubberMiley]

I'm not familiar with the economic situation in Manitoba or the events you're speaking about.

You're quick to declare yourself the authority on what the NDP is and you aren't even aware of their policies in a province where they have been government for the past 12 years?

No wonder you feel it necessary to cite what you've studied "academically." You can't back it up with anything substantial.

[Harry]

Mr Layton must be a happy camper today.

Most Recent polling:

Date / Pollster / Cons / NDP / LIbs / Bloc

Apr 30 / Leger M / 36% / 31% / 21% / 7% / NDP now only 5% out of first place

Apr 30 / Angus R / 37.0% / 33.0% / 19.0% / NDP now only 4% out of first place

Apr 30 / Nanos / 38.0% / 29.6% / 23.3% / 5.2%

Apr 29 / Ipsos R / 38.0% / 33.0% / 18.0% / 7% / NDP within 5% of first place

Apr 29 / EKOS / 34.5% / 29.7% / 20.0% / 6.3% / NDP withing 4.8% of first place

Apr 29 / Nanos / 36.4% / 31.2% / 22.0% / 5.7% / NDP within 5.2% of first place

Apr 28 / Harris D / 35.0% / 30.0% / 22.0% / NDP within 5% of first place

Apr 28 / EKOS / 34.8% / 27.5% / 22.3% / 6.1%

Apr 28 / Nanos / 36.6% / 30.4% / 21.9% / 6.0% / NDP within 6.2% of first place

Apr 27 / EKOS / 34.0% / 28.1% / 22.9% / 6.6% / NDP within 5.9% of first place

Apr 27 / Forum / 34.0% / 31.0% / 22.0% / NDP within 3% of first place

Apr 26 / Nanos / 37.8% / 27.8% / 22.9% / 5.8%

Apr 26 / Angus R / 35.0% / 30.0% / 22.0% / 5.0% / NDP within 5% of 1st place

Apr 25 / EKOS / 33.9% / 27.9% / 24.0% / 6.0%

Apr 24 / EKOS / 33.7% / 28.0% / 23.7% / 6.2%

Apr 24 / Nanos / 39.2% / 23.6% / 25.6% /

Apr 21 / Envi / 39.0% / 25.0% / 22.0% /

Apr 20 / Ipsos R / 43.0% / 24.0% / 21.0% / 6.0%

Apr 16 / Angus R / 36.0% / 25.0% / 25.0% /

[Bob]

You're quick to declare yourself the authority on what the NDP is and you aren't even aware of their policies in a province where they have been government for the past 12 years?

No wonder you feel it necessary to cite what you've studied "academically." You can't back it up with anything substantial.

Do you really think it is hard for me to give illustrations of socialistic and harmful policies implemented by and/or advocated for from the NDP in other spheres, i.e. in BC or Ontario? Any cursory examination of Layton's position instantly reveals socialistic policies.

With respect to what I've studied at university, it's really unimportant. I wasn't trying to insult Smallc, I was simply offering him sincere advice. He's a politically-oriented guy, but with an amateur grasp of economics. He's greatly appreciate economics at an academic level to a much greater degree than the average schmuck. I can't recall specifics, and they're not from this thread, but he's demonstrated to me before a poor grasp of incentives/disincentives with respect to economics. It's not an inability to understand, it's just a lack of education on the matter.

[cybercoma]

Bob, did you read about the Waffle movement yet?