israel responds to terrorism by killing civilians

[DogOnPorch]

Well, you and others here like to paint others in absolutes, so I was just posing a hypothetical question you have still failed to answer. In the end, I am ok with that, knowing full well I would not get an answer. I know my view is not popular, but that is the view I hold and I won't make any apologies about it.

As AW points out...my quote was...

It sucks when one loses the war one started.

Now, in order for me to turn that around requires that the Jews be the ones started the war in 1948 rather than the Mufti & crew. Didn't happen.

Don't you find it ironic that the father of the Palestinian cause was one of the very dudes sending Jews to the ovens during WW2?

I do.

[GostHacked]

As AW points out...my quote was...

I know the quote, I adjusted my question.

Now, in order for me to turn that around requires that the Jews be the ones started the war in 1948 rather than the Mufti & crew. Didn't happen.

I adjusted my question.

Don't you find it ironic that the father of the Palestinian cause was one of the very dudes sending Jews to the ovens during WW2?

I do.

Thanks for the typical non-answer Dog.

[DogOnPorch]

You have trouble accepting reality. Since we're asking questions. The Palestinian cause was started by a Nazi. Why give the movement a second of your time?

As to your question: If Israel gets wiped-out, many folks will not care one iota. Many will cheer. Perhaps even you.

[Guest American Woman]

Alright, let me rephrase. If a war is waged against Israel and Israel looses, will Isreal's supporters call foul, or say, that the spoils go to the victor(s)?

I would say that people would apply the idea that "the spoils go to the victor" differently to a country that was attacked and a country that did the attacking and lost and then wanted what it lost back again.

I find it interesting that you have a problem with people supporting Israel but you have no problem with people having complete support for Palestine. I believe both countries have a right to exist and I believe that countries to have a right to defend themselves. What I don't believe is that a country has the right to attack and target and kill innocent civilians.

[DogOnPorch]

I would say that people would apply the idea that "the spoils go to the victor" differently to a country that was attacked and a country that did the attacking and lost and then wanted what it lost back again.

I find it interesting that you have a problem with people supporting Israel but you have no problem with people having complete support for Palestine. I believe both countries have a right to exist and I believe that countries to have a right to defend themselves. What I don't believe is that a country has the right to attack and target and kill innocent civilians.

I also imagine that the Arabs would ignore any pleas to rebuild a vanquished Israel...no matter what any evil Israel supporter might want/desire.

[GostHacked]

I would say that people would apply the idea that "the spoils go to the victor" differently to a country that was attacked and a country that did the attacking and lost and then wanted what it lost back again.

I find it interesting that you have a problem with people supporting Israel but you have no problem with people having complete support for Palestine. I believe both countries have a right to exist and I believe that countries to have a right to defend themselves. What I don't believe is that a country has the right to attack and target and kill innocent civilians.

In the end, no matter my position or opinion, Israel exists. I don't have to support it. Looks like there is enough support for it here as it is. But I do support both peoples eventually living in peace and respect .. either in a one new state, Palisrael has a nice ring to it. Or it ends in a stable peacefull two state solution. But for all intents and purposes, there is only one country there. Essentialy, and this has been discussed in other threads, that Israel owns the occupied territories. Israel has control over it, and to some part, administers it (barriers, check points).

It goes back and forth, and I've been hearing about the attacks since I was a kid. I did not understand it then, and the more I learn about it the more confusing it gets. I don't know what to make of it anymore. Either it ends in peace and an independant Palestine is established, with Israel having peace and security, or one of them will be wiped out. I'll say that is advantage Israel at the moment. Time will tell.

I just hope it ends real f*cking soon. Tired of hearing about it.

[DogOnPorch]

Try again...

Gosthacked: Since we're asking questions. The Palestinian Cause was started by a Nazi. Why give the movement a second of your time?

[Jonsa]

As AW points out...my quote was...

Now, in order for me to turn that around requires that the Jews be the ones started the war in 1948 rather than the Mufti & crew. Didn't happen.

Don't you find it ironic that the father of the Palestinian cause was one of the very dudes sending Jews to the ovens during WW2?

I do.

The mufti was not a nazi.

He was a sympathizer, because the Nazis were the enemies of his principle enemy- britain.

The fact that the Nazi's also hated jews was just a sweet bonus.

The war was mutual. The Israeli's knew that the declaration of independence would be immediately followed by a declaration of war by the arabs. Both sides were prepared to start shooting on the 15th.

[DogOnPorch]

The mufti was not a nazi.

He was a sympathizer, because the Nazis were the enemies of his principle enemy- britain.

The fact that the Nazi's also hated jews was just a sweet bonus.

The creation of the 13th SS Handshar division, the Iraq coup and being given charge of Hitler's Arab Bureau is a wee bit more than mere sympathizer. The Mufti's influence in Eichmann's office is the apparent cause of most of the Jews in the Axis aligned countries of Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary ending up in Poland (and dead) rather than British Palestine.

The war was mutual. The Israeli's knew that the declaration of independence would be immediately followed by a declaration of war by the arabs. Both sides were prepared to start shooting on the 15th.

The Mufti was at war with the Jews since 1920...earlier if you count his Turkish military service...but then you'd need to tally in some dead Armenians, too.

[Oleg Bach]

Look at the footage...half of the Israelis are over weight - big fat asses scrambling about picking up bloody shoes...and crying over the latest bombing of a bus..It used to be that Palistine was cheap labour for these fat jerks...that reject phyical labour and the honest creation of real wealth...Maybe it's time that the Jews stopped depending on subjugation and slave labour? As the middle east burns - eventually - the Jews with common sense and those with a sense of justice - will have an uprising ...and outst the corrupt fat government that brings about all these difficulties upon Israel...It will come - Isrealites like Arabs are Semites....and All semites will rise up and join their brothers in their fight for a fair playing field for all - If a Jew wants peace they are persecuted - because Israel is run much like America - a crimminal enterprise controlled by fat lazy jerks that have dropped their belief in goodness and God - the convenant between God and the Choosen ones is breached - secularism rules Israel...I hope that the real Jews - or as in ancient talk - The Judeans - rise up and oust the crimminals...that are indirectly responsible for the deaths of their own tribal members.

Justice for all is what will bring about peace, stablity and prosperity ...the average Arab...and Jew really want no part of the mayhem..as Christ said regarding interlopers..."These are not Jews (citizens of Judea) but of the synagog (gathering) of Satan (the liar)...........................2000 years ago the Romans knowingly executed an innocent man...a man that was the rightful heir to the Judean throne....It was and is a real estate dispute - then and now! The Jews hate the thought that they assisted the state (Rome) in the murder of their own king - a man from the house of Solomon - You can check mate and imprison a king...but it is a no no - to kill him or insist on the killing and sheding of royal blood.

[Guest American Woman]

In the end, no matter my position or opinion, Israel exists. I don't have to support it. Looks like there is enough support for it here as it is.

No, you don't have to support Israel. Seems to me, though, that that recognition would result in the knowledge that Israel supporters don't have to support Palestine. If you have the right not to support Israel, do others not have the right not to support Palestine? But most people do support the right for both to exist.

But I do support both peoples eventually living in peace and respect .. either in a one new state, Palisrael has a nice ring to it.

I doubt that's possible, and I doubt if anyone over there thinks it has a nice ring to it.

Or it ends in a stable peacefull two state solution.

I can't perceive of any other solution.

But for all intents and purposes, there is only one country there. Essentialy, and this has been discussed in other threads, that Israel owns the occupied territories. Israel has control over it, and to some part, administers it (barriers, check points).

Israel maintains barriers and checkpoints to protect its citizens. Palestine elects Hamas to rule in chosen areas. I would say your take on it is way too simplistic.

It goes back and forth, and I've been hearing about the attacks since I was a kid. I did not understand it then, and the more I learn about it the more confusing it gets. I don't know what to make of it anymore.

Which is why it's hard to judge and/or claim to know what the answer is. "Walk a mile in my shoes." That's the only way we'll ever know, and then of course we're seeing it from one side. But I'm not starting thread after thread denouncing Palestine the way some here have done/continue to do about Israel, so I'll react to those threads. I don't see Israel as the Big Bad Wolf and Palestine as the innocent Lambs. I don't understand that mentality. I don't understand the idea that accidental, regrettable civilians deaths is no different from targeting/ordering the death of civilians. Yet there's nary a response when that mentality is put forth. Of course there's a difference. It just seems to be much more acceptable when it's one side killing civilians -- intentionally!

Either it ends in peace and an independant Palestine is established, with Israel having peace and security, or one of them will be wiped out. I'll say that is advantage Israel at the moment. Time will tell.

I honestly can't disagree with you there. There seems to be no other options, other than conflict going on throughout the rest of time, which of course is a possiblity.

I just hope it ends real f*cking soon. Tired of hearing about it.

At least you have the option of not hearing about it. You don't have to choose to listen to, read about, or respond to anything about it. Not so for the people actually living it.

Edited March 26, 2011 by American Woman

[dre]

You seem alright with painting me in absolutes. My position is that of the history books. That some of that history is inconvenient to your world view isn't my problem.

My position is that of the history books

[dre]

No, you don't have to support Israel. Seems to me, though, that that recognition would result in the knowledge that Israel supporters don't have to support Palestine. If you have the right not to support Israel, do others not have the right not to support Palestine? But most people do support the right for both to exist.

I doubt that's possible, and I doubt if anyone over there thinks it has a nice ring to it.

I can't perceive of any other solution.

Israel maintains barriers and checkpoints to protect its citizens. Palestine elects Hamas to rule in chosen areas. I would say your take on it is way too simplistic.

Which is why it's hard to judge and/or claim to know what the answer is. "Walk a mile in my shoes." That's the only way we'll ever know, and then of course we're seeing it from one side. But I'm not starting thread after thread denouncing Palestine the way some here have done/continue to do about Israel, so I'll react to those threads. I don't see Israel as the Big Bad Wolf and Palestine as the innocent Lambs. I don't understand that mentality. I don't understand the idea that accidental, regrettable civilians deaths is no different from targeting/ordering the death of civilians. Yet there's nary a response when that mentality is put forth. Of course there's a difference. It just seems to be much more acceptable when it's one side killing civilians -- intentionally!

I honestly can't disagree with you there. There seems to be no other options, other than conflict going on throughout the rest of time, which of course is a possiblity.

At least you have the option of not hearing about it. You don't have to choose to listen to, read about, or respond to anything about it. Not so for the people actually living it.

Israel maintains barriers and checkpoints to protect its citizens. Palestine elects Hamas to rule in chosen areas. I would say your take on it is way too simplistic.

Most of what Israel does has nothign to do with security. They are plundering the west bank for resources which is the only reason they occupied it in the first place. They have build key national infrastructure there... pumping stations, wells, pipelines etc.

Isreal occupied and has kept that territory for ONE REASON. They WANT it. End of story.

[DogOnPorch]

вы денье холокоста дебил!

Edited March 26, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Jack Weber]

Thanks for the typical non-answer Dog.

But it's not a non answer...

There is a direct historical link between the virulent Islamofascists in the Middle East and the virulent Fascists in NAZI Germany,as it relates to anti-Semitism...

I would another link...The Ba'Athism originally propsed by Abdel Gemal Nasser was,in part,based on an admiration of European Nationalism(see Fascism)...

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jack Weber

[DogOnPorch]

But it's not a non answer...

There is a direct historical link between the virulent Islamofascists in the Middle East and the virulent Fascists in NAZI Germany,as it relates to anti-Semitism...

I would another link...The Ba'Athism originally propsed by Abdel Gemal Nasser was,in part,based on an admiration of European Nationalism(see Fascism)...

Meh...dre thinks Babi Yar is a flavour of ice cream. Whadya expect?

[Jack Weber]

Meh...dre thinks Babi Yar is a flavour of ice cream. Whadya expect?

And Juden Raus is candy?

[DogOnPorch]

And Juden Raus is candy?

Well, Chocolate Juden Raus goes well with coffee...

[GostHacked]

No, you don't have to support Israel. Seems to me, though, that that recognition would result in the knowledge that Israel supporters don't have to support Palestine. If you have the right not to support Israel, do others not have the right not to support Palestine? But most people do support the right for both to exist.

True, but this walking involves a severe limp.

Israel maintains barriers and checkpoints to protect its citizens. Palestine elects Hamas to rule in chosen areas. I would say your take on it is way too simplistic.

It's more than just security.

Which is why it's hard to judge and/or claim to know what the answer is. "Walk a mile in my shoes." That's the only way we'll ever know, and then of course we're seeing it from one side. But I'm not starting thread after thread denouncing Palestine the way some here have done/continue to do about Israel, so I'll react to those threads. I don't see Israel as the Big Bad Wolf and Palestine as the innocent Lambs. I don't understand that mentality. I don't understand the idea that accidental, regrettable civilians deaths is no different from targeting/ordering the death of civilians. Yet there's nary a response when that mentality is put forth. Of course there's a difference. It just seems to be much more acceptable when it's one side killing civilians -- intentionally!

It's not acceptable on either side. And neither side is innocent in any of this.

I honestly can't disagree with you there. There seems to be no other options, other than conflict going on throughout the rest of time, which of course is a possiblity.

Time seems to be proving just that.

At least you have the option of not hearing about it. You don't have to choose to listen to, read about, or respond to anything about it. Not so for the people actually living it.

True, I do have the option. But I can't ignore the support Israel gets from western nations while Palestine gets support from nations like Lebanon, Iran, (not sure who else). Isralies and Palestinians are not the only members involved in this conflict.

Overall good post AW.

[Bob]

Only difference is that Israel generally doesn't shoot first.

Disproportionate response is primary Israeli doctrine.

There has NEVER been a palestinian attack on Israeli soil that has not been responded too in a heavy handed fashion.

Palestinians know this and appear to welcome such response, so they can leverage their casualities in the propaganda war. Seems they haven't been getting much arab attention lately.

Indeed, I'd wager your response to this story has been the same for years.

You're making the mistake of describing this century-old struggle as a sequence of tit-for-tats, and not as part of a larger historical context. "Israel generally doesn't shoot first", what exactly does that mean? Does that mean that one week without shooting is some sort of fresh start? How are you defining the beginnings and the ends of these conflict episodes? Let me tell you something that perhaps you and many others don't seem to grasp or don't want to understand - the terrorist don't stop planning and readying themselves. They never stop trying. We don't need to regularly provide fresh spilled Jewish blood in order to renew our rights to self-defense. If Israel strikes terrorists, we don't need to have a fresh Jewish casualty from last week to point to as a justification. Unfortunately, the Israeli government often behaves in this manner, waiting for Jewish victims to be murdered before protecting us. It is insane how the Israeli government seems to regularly wait for a refill of Jewish victims before doing what needs to be done, and this has been the method of Israel for decades.

The statement about Israel always responding to all terrorist attacks in a "heavy handed fashion" is just something you made up on the spot. It's not true, and it's funny coming from someone who certainly couldn't name five terrorist incidents in Israel without running to Wikipedia. Stop pretending to know the first thing about the history of terrorism in Israel and Israel's dealings with this ongoing threat. Unfortunately for you, there's someone like me in here who knows much, much, much more than you and will call on your bullshit when you pretend to know things you don't. There have been thousands of terrorist attacks on Israel, and many on the Jewish communities in the pre-Israel decades before 1948.

"Disproportionate response" is just politicized filth intended to deny Israel and the Jewish people the right to self-defense, that bullshit has been destroyed repeatedly in this forum. Israel, like all other states, has the right to defend itself and secure its citizens. Body counts aren't measurements of justice, or "proportion". When terrorists in Gaza launch rockets into Israel, Israel has the right to stop these rockets. Israel will do what it reasonably can to reduce the likelihood of civilian causalities in its efforts to defend itself, but given the nature of the terrorist infrastructure being embedded within the civilian infrastructure (and populations), it just isn't possible.

[Bob]

With respect to the story bud is referring to in the OP, it's just another anecdote reinforcing the fact that Hamas and other terrorist organization are inextricable from the civilian population. Hamas official acknowledged that its own people were killed in some of the Israeli airstrikes, as well as some children (bear in mind that children can and often are instruments of terror). Assuming the children are innocent (which isn't an assumption I make), what does it tell you about the fact that they were killed alongside the terrorists? It tells us what we've all known for decades... that the terrorists embed themselves in the civilian infrastructure. Apartments and hospitals and mosques and schools with all serve as scouting points, weapon storage, and operations centres. The terrorists are indistinguishable from civilians until they pull out their weapons or reveal themselves in some other way. This is the nature of combating modern terrorism with the Arabs/Muslims.

Anyways, the OP omits the context of Hamas terrorists also being killed in these strikes alongside the children/youth, which tells us all we need to know about how the terrorists operate alongside these children/youth (and use them as instruments of terror).

[Bob]

Ouch sad example. In both cases people in the countries being militarily occupied have the right to resist using force/violence.

The reality is that Israel is currently settling, and plundering the resources of an area that is under military occupation. That there will be violent resistance to such an occupation is obvious, and whining about it is disingenuous.

The occupation is a response to wars and terrorism. It's a defensive measure. If it wasn't for the wars and terrorism beforehand, there'd be no occupation. They simply cannot be trusted to have full autonomy given their history and current behaviour.

[Bob]

No there are no winning strategies. And the PA has offered to compromise on lots of key issues including Jerusalem, right of return. And they are probably the most moderate palestinian authority in history. Israel has responded by ramping up settlement development even though they knew full well it would scuttle negotiations.

The palestinians are quite simply fucked no matter WHAT they do. Even if palestinians were completely peacefull Israeli policy wouldnt change. In fact if it werent for palestinian resistance Israel probably would have formally annexed all that land by now.

This is a ridiculous assessment of the situation. Basically, in your view, we're the aggressors. We're to blame. I'm not surprised, though... it's the same shit we've always seen from you.

[Bob]

They've been getting f'ed royally since the early 1900's. Now they keep f'ing themselves with stupid behaviour, though i can understands their rage.

Israeli withdraws from Gaza, then the Palestinians start launching rockets from the same place Israel just let you have. Given that, why the heck would Israel give them the West Bank when the Palestinians show that the violence from the West Bank likely wouldn't stop even if they gave in to some of their demands?

There are so many babies & morons on both sides of the conflict its ridiculous. Thank God for the moderates.

Long before the withdrawal of 2006, there were many terrorist attacks that came from Gaza for decades. Before that, these are the same people that fought, or supported the fight, towards attempts to destroy Israel in 48/49, 54, and 67. They don't deserve our trust.

[Bob]

Israel gets along just fine with Jordan, Turkey, and Egypt. and you're a little behind the times on Hosni.

Relations with Jordan, Turkey, and Egypt are very cold. Especially at the governmental level and in the international arena.