Trudeau ignites storm

[segnosaur]

...Note that once again I'm not condoning male circumcision; I just don't see the process to be as significant as female circumcision.

Hmmm...I always wondered where "pork rinds" came from. Gimme back my foreskin!

Actually, doctors who perform the operation usually use the extra material to make wallets. But when you rub them, they become suitcases.

Actually, there are people who have manage to 'restore' their foreskin by stretching the remaining skin using weights.

[Saipan]

I can recall many murders where fathers or mothers slaughtered their children and never was the term barbaric used..."barbaric" labels the entire social group of the murderers

They are not in "group". Moslems are.

The good Moslems of Afghanistan (government) have death penalty for mere conversion to non-Islamic religion. Isn't that barbaric? From pre-medieval times.

[ToadBrother]

They are not in "group". Moslems are.

Are you categorically going on record to state that all, or at least a large majority of Muslims advocate honor killings?

The good Moslems of Afghanistan (government) have death penalty for mere conversion to non-Islamic religion. Isn't that barbaric? From pre-medieval times.

Not every Muslim nation has this law, and yes, it is barbaric.

[Saipan]

Are you categorically going on record to state that all, or at least a large majority of Muslims advocate honor killings?

Why ask? Read what I posted.

Not every Muslim nation has this law, and yes, it is barbaric.

True. Some have stoning. Others have public execution of gays.....

But what is "Muslim Nation"??

Is Afghanistan Muslim Nation? Since they chased out and exterminated all other religions, and blew up non-Islamic statues?

[William Ashley]

Ummmm... your point?

Although the source of the name "barbarian" goes back to greco-roman times, in current the common definition of "barbaric" is to imply uncivilized and/or brutal.

So war is uncivilized and non brutal? Is war barbaric?

Or lets say, is policing barbaric.

Is boxing barbaric.

Is business barbaric?

You are just name calling with this junk. It doesn't apply, Islamic countries have mostly banned honour killings. The death penalty is not barbaric, it is a civilized practice. I find putting someone in a small cell and giving them an hour a light a day is far more barbaric than just blowing their head off. Confinement is far more barbaric than liberating the soul from the material world.

(personally though I find only a consensual death penalty to be morally correct)

The fact that we had duels and witch burnings in the past does not mean that we cannot view those practices as "barbaric" if they were practiced today.

Why? was 1900's Canada barbaric, was your great grandfather or grandfather or father barbaric? The death penalty existed until just about 50 years ago for most capital crimes (it is still legal for high treason). Were people of the 50's Barbaric? When exactly did Canada become "civilized?" When exactly did anyone become civilized? It seems you are putting this somewhere in the last 100 years. If not the last 50 years.. or maybe just the world you have lived in, is it that only the world you lived in was civlized and everyone else was barbaric? My opinion is that chances are you are in a vacuum of self denile. Completely oblvious to the world around you, ignorant and self consumed.

Such "civility" does not respect the rights of individuals to choose who they associate with. Therefore, even though the rules of such societies are well established, I'd hardly consider them "civilized".

So only your notions of civility are civilized while everyone elses are just not informed? Do you think you can come down off that horse, I think reality wants to speak with you.

As well they should be. Here in Canada we have a right to decide who we will and will not have (consentual) sex with.

Most certainly this is usually the case, it is criminal otherwise.

Whoa... wait a sec... are you suggesting rape is due to "sexual promescuity"?

No I am suggesting rape is due to not having honour embedded in western atheism. The absence of honour makes heinous crimes more likely.

I am rather disturbed that anyone would actually have that attitude here.

I would be more concerned if you actually wern't self absorbed ignorant and obtuse in generality.

Edited March 16, 2011 by William Ashley

[ToadBrother]

Why ask? Read what I posted.

Then you should have no problem restating it. Why be so coy?

[Scotty]

THIS IS JUST STUPID TRUDEAU IS RIGHT!!!

ROMANS HAD HONOUR KILLINGS TOO!

ALTHOUGH MUSLIMS WOULD LIKELY BE BARBARIANS... THE PRACTICE CANNOT BE BARBARIC BECAUSE ROMANS DID IT.

THE GREEKS HAD HONOURABLE SUICIDE.. SO DO THE JAPANESE. AS DO INDIANS. FOR THAT MATTER MOST OF THE ANCIENT AND NOT SO ANCIENT WORLD INTO THE MODERN PERIOD HAD THESE PRACTICES. THEY HAD DUELS UP UNTIL THE 1900's in Canada and witch burnings.

Have you moved in with Oleg or something?

[Scotty]

Barbara Kay of the NP says: Trudeau the multiculturalist walks into trap of his own making, betraying "the soft bigotry of low expectations"

I like that. The soft bigotry of low expectations. I know exactly what she's saying!

[jbg]

Have you moved in with Oleg or something?

No.

With Charlie Sheen or Jared Loughner.

[Scotty]

I can recall many murders where fathers or mothers slaughtered their children and never was the term barbaric used..."barbaric" labels the entire social group of the murderers as barbarians by association..

There was a murder a ten years back involving a contract killing of a young woman, a Sikh, I believe. She was persuaded to go back to India, where she was murdered by gunmen hired by her mother and uncle in Canada.

Despite the killing, her uncle is a respected member of the Sikh community where he lives, and still an elder at the Sikh temple. Ten years later, the Indian government is still trying to extradite him, but the Canadian government, to their everlasting shame, has continued to throw roadblocks in the way of extradition, most likely, one assumes, because these are prominent people within the Sikh community and the government is afraid it will cost them votes if they let them be extradited.

Link

I would put it to you that if a mother or father were known to have killed their children in Canada they would be shunned by the community, not held up as great and respected members of that community.

[Scotty]

Are you categorically going on record to state that all, or at least a large majority of Muslims advocate honor killings?

I think his point is that individuals commit murder in most cultures. In the case of honor killing sometimes entire families get together to plan the killing. In one case I read of in Jordan the teenage girl was hanged by, and in front of about twenty members of her family.

[kimmy]

*What* culture is being being offended here?

What culture doesn't hold "honor killings" to be barbaric?

I know it's not Muslims we're talking about, because every single time there has been a thread about "honor killings" committed by Muslims, our resident Muslim Defense League has sprung into action to explain that "honor killing" is as abhorrent to Muslims as it is to the rest of us, and that those very very rare Muslims who have committed "honor killings" are not representative of Muslims, they're just a tiny tiny minority of... well, barbarians. In fact, I am sure that our resident Muslim Defense League will be along any moment to set you guys straight and explain that Muslims hold "honor killing" to be just as barbaric as the rest of us.

So ... which culture is the description "barbaric" actually offensive to?

Let's name names. Let's find out which culture it actually is where "honor killing" is considered an actual part of the culture, rather than a crime committed by some small minority within that group.

I'm willing to bet that nobody here can actually name such a culture.

(But if there actually is one, then let's not accept immigrants from there.)

Still waiting to hear whose culture is actually being insulted by the description of "honor killing" as barbaric.

-k

[nicky10013]

Still waiting to hear whose culture is actually being insulted by the description of "honor killing" as barbaric.

-k

All murder is. Why is this particularly more babaric than other forms?

[ToadBrother]

All murder is. Why is this particularly more babaric than other forms?

Our civilization has long made distinctions between different kinds of murder. Regicide was viewed not just as murder, but as high treason. Patricide, matricide and infanticide were viewed as far worse than most other forms of homicide.

On a more personal note, Justin Trudeau is a twit. I know he was supposed to be some shining beacon back to the glory days of his old man, but PET would probably not have said something like that, and even if he did, he wouldn't have backed down from it no matter how hard his opponents railed against it. His response would have been something on the order of "fuddle duddle".

Justin Trudeau is a limp noodle, a dull, uninspired fellow. He had one shining moment at his old man's funeral, and should have accepted that as the highlight of his public life.

Edited March 16, 2011 by ToadBrother

[kimmy]

All murder is. Why is this particularly more babaric than other forms?

Most murder is not considered a cultural practice but rather an abhorrent act that is outside the realm of acceptable behavior.

Some in this thread are objecting to the characterization of "honor killing" as barbaric on the basis that it's culturally insensitive.

I'm just asking: to what culture? Is that an unreasonable question? I have yet to hear those who argue it's culturally insensitive offer any example of what culture it's actually insensitive to.

-k

[nicky10013]

Our civilization has long made distinctions between different kinds of murder. Regicide was viewed not just as murder, but as high treason. Patricide, matricide and infanticide were viewed as far worse than most other forms of homicide.

I didn't dispute the fact that we make distinctions and to be fair I disagree with Trudeau, I merely asked why in this case honour killing is more barbaric?

When we boil it down, an honour killing is a father or brother killing a woman in the family for showing independence in one form or another. Is that truly worse than a husband killing a wife for insurance money - or a better example yet - a husband or wife killing their spouse because of an affair?

Edited March 16, 2011 by nicky10013

[ToadBrother]

Most murder is not considered a cultural practice but rather an abhorrent act that is outside the realm of acceptable behavior.

Some in this thread are objecting to the characterization of "honor killing" as barbaric on the basis that it's culturally insensitive.

I'm just asking: to what culture? Is that an unreasonable question? I have yet to hear those who argue it's culturally insensitive offer any example of what culture it's actually insensitive to.

-k

It may very well be insulting to a number of Central Asian cultures, where it has been a fixture since before the advent of Islam. But that seems beside the point to me, and the worst aspect of multiculturalism as it is currently formulated, the underlying notion that insult should not be given to any cultural group even where we view their practices as barbaric. I doubt Justin Trudeau would have said anything so stupid if somebody had said lopping off young girls' clitorises was barbaric, but that's because it's so much more immediately heinous. And yet, to some cultural groups, it might very well be viewed as insulting.

Edited March 16, 2011 by ToadBrother

[nicky10013]

Most murder is not considered a cultural practice but rather an abhorrent act that is outside the realm of acceptable behavior.

Some in this thread are objecting to the characterization of "honor killing" as barbaric on the basis that it's culturally insensitive.

I'm just asking: to what culture? Is that an unreasonable question? I have yet to hear those who argue it's culturally insensitive offer any example of what culture it's actually insensitive to.

-k

I personally don't know if I'd say it's cultural. Like I said, people here kill their spouses all the time for infedelity real or imagined. Why not call that an honour killing?

[nicky10013]

It may very well be insulting to a number of Central Asian cultures, where it has been a fixture since before the advent of Islam. But that seems beside the point to me, and the worst aspect of multiculturalism as it is currently formulated, the underlying notion that insult should not be given to any cultural group even where we view their practices as barbaric. I doubt Justin Trudeau would have said anything so stupid if somebody had said lopping off young girls' clitorises was barbaric, but that's because it's so much more immediately heinous. And yet, to some cultural groups, it might very well be viewed as insulting.

I think we should be critical but I also think we should be fair. Communities within Canada should be criticised for not speaking up on the issue, but lets be frank, this doesn't just happen in only one community, in this example the muslim community, and to pretend like it does I personally do find offensive.

[ToadBrother]

I personally don't know if I'd say it's cultural. Like I said, people here kill their spouses all the time for infedelity real or imagined. Why not call that an honour killing?

Mainly, I think, because it extends beyond spouses to other kin; sisters, aunts, cousins, and so on. I don't think a lot of spousal murders happen out of some sense of honor, more likely as the result of jealousy or out of revenge. A father killing his daughter because she doesn't want to live in a traditional way or marry an appropriate and approved husband is born out of a long tradition of women being the center of a family or tribe's honor, and that perceived shameful acts she commits shaming the entire family or tribe, and requiring her death to restore that honor. This has been observed in many cultures, but is very prevalent in Central Asia and Indian culture, both Muslim and non-Muslim.

I doubt you will see very many of what I might call spousal homicides that were committed to assuage the shame and dishonor of the victim's kin.

[kimmy]

It may very well be insulting to a number of Central Asian cultures, where it has been a fixture since before the advent of Islam.

...in nations whose governments are now condemning the practice as antiquated and barbaric, yes?

But that seems beside the point to me, and the worst aspect of multiculturalism as it is currently formulated, the underlying notion that insult should not be given to any cultural group even where we view their practices as barbaric. I doubt Justin Trudeau would have said anything so stupid if somebody had said lopping off young girls' clitorises was barbaric, but that's because it's so much more immediately heinous. And yet, to some cultural groups, it might very well be viewed as insulting.

I agree that not causing offense was at the heart of Trudeau's comments. But we had a thread not too long ago where some academic was arguing for more tolerant discussion of female genital cutting precisely for reasons of cultural sensitivity, so I'm not convinced about the latter part.

I personally don't know if I'd say it's cultural. Like I said, people here kill their spouses all the time for infedelity real or imagined. Why not call that an honour killing?

If you kill your wife because you're unable to control your anger or jealousy, you're an animal.

If you kill your wife to collect insurance money, you're inhuman.

If you kill your wife because your culture says it's an appropriate thing to do, it means you come from a barbaric culture.

Whatever the reason, you're a murderer. Maybe the motive will have some effect on the sentence.

-k

[Keepitsimple]

I didn't dispute the fact that we make distinctions and to be fair I disagree with Trudeau, I merely asked why in this case honour killing is more barbaric?

When we boil it down, an honour killing is a father or brother killing a woman in the family for showing independence in one form or another. Is that truly worse than a husband killing a wife for insurance money - or a better example yet - a husband or wife killing their spouse because of an affair?

Yes....it IS worse. The insurance money example or many others are one-off crimes. Honour murders are worse because they are deemed acceptable - or at least tolerated - inside certain cultures. A vile action that has the ability to perpetuate itself through some form of acceptance or tolerance is more dangerous than a one-off crime of greed or passion.....so yes, it's worse.

[kimmy]

Yes....it IS worse. The insurance money example or many others are one-off crimes. Honour murders are worse because they are deemed acceptable - or at least tolerated - inside certain cultures. A vile action that has the ability to perpetuate itself through some form of acceptance or tolerance is more dangerous than a one-off crime of greed or passion.....so yes, it's worse.

Indeed, this is the reason that hatred of certain groups is considered an aggravating factor in sentencing of violent crimes.

-k

[betsy]

And what is the notion of a "crime of passion", but a nicer way of putting it?

A murder that happens in the heat of the moment is a crime of passion. Such as if a spouse is killed in rage of anger (such as in an adulterous relationship) as an example. Such is not the case for honor killings. I've read cases where-in the killings were actually planned (one was featured in W5 or 5th Estate).

Some brides in India are burned to death if their families did not come up with the dowry.

Edited March 17, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Actually, doctors who perform the operation usually use the extra material to make wallets.

Rubber bands and silly bands!