The end of the empire of Japan

[wyly]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html

Something I've been saying from the start. Underestimated and under reported. Watch for the likes of CBC, CNN FOX et al, start reporting this in a couple more days.

yet they still rate this as no worse than Three Mile Island which is absurd, this far far worse...TMI had no deaths, no injuries, no explosions, no major release of radiation, no one exposed to dangerous levels of radiation and only one reactor suffered a partial meltdown...compared to Japan- explosions, fires, buildings destroyed, release of dangerous amounts of radiation, deaths, injuries, multiple meltdowns, at least 20 people exposed to dangerous levels of radiation, containment shields suspected of being breached, the entire complex of 6 reactors are done and it goes on and on...this is at very least a level 6 incident one below Chernobyl, what we're seeing from the Japanese is the typical cultural "loss of face" attitude...

it reminds all of the Monty Python movie "the holy grail"...where the black knight gets his arm cut off and claims it just a flesh wound...

Edited March 18, 2011 by wyly

[wyly]

link?

sorry none... I saw it on a news channel...

[bush_cheney2004]

yet they still rate this as no worse than Three Mile Island which is absurd, this far far worse...

The assessed level from the INES scale is logarithmic, assigned provisionally at first, then adjusted as more facts are established.

This is not a score at some goddamn football game! (from the film Fail Safe (I always wanted to type that in a forum...hehe)

Edited March 18, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

This is not a score at some goddamn football game! (from the film Fail Safe (I always wanted to type that in a forum...hehe)

In a similar Cold War comment...

Sir, you can't let him in here. He'll see everything. He'll see the Big Board!

---General "Buck" Turgidson

Everyone is suddenly an expert in nukeleur radiations.

[guyser]

Everyone is suddenly an expert in nukeleur radiations.

thats nuculeeare thank you.

[DogOnPorch]

guyser: thats nuculeeare thank you.

Oh yeahs...right.

nuc-u-lee-are

Best spellz thangs korrectly.

Edited March 18, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[TimG]

Something I've been saying from the start. Underestimated and under reported. Watch for the likes of CBC, CNN FOX et al, start reporting this in a couple more days.

There was no serious radiation problem for the first few days. It is only after the water level decreased to the point where the spent fuel rods were exposed. Stop trying to twist his words to mean something they do not.

[TimG]

30 meters is about 90 feet. (3 feet per meter) and the Tsunami was reported at 8 feet, which is about 3 meters. If the Tsunami was 90 feet high, there would have been a lot more damage and the waves would have pushed farther inland. It reached about 10kms as it was.

Tell that to the people sheltering on the *3rd* floor of a hospital that were washed away. The tsunami was 10m high on average reaching 15m in places. The wave that hit fukushima was 7m high.

[TimG]

Just to add, none of the towers blew up at 3-mile Island - Fukushima had 4 towers blow.

Ever seen an oil well flare natural gas? That is what we are talking about here with these explosions. Nothing to get worked up over.

the spent fuel rods were not stored at 3-mile Island - Fukichima stored 40 years of spent fuel rods on top of the reactors which blew up.

They have about 12 months worth of fuel rods. The ponds are temporary storage. What made the ponds dangerous was the entire core was removed from #4 for maintenance in Nov. Edited March 18, 2011 by TimG

[guyser]

Read today there are 30 kids at a school waiting to be picked up. The teachers havent said anything

to them yet.

So very sad. Damn

[Post To The Left]

As a bunch of people were saying earlier the size of the tsunami depended on the how shallow/deep the shore was and the size of the harbour. If there is a tight harbour with a narrow entrance the wave will be higher. For example the small village of Taro was wiped out (for the third time in 100 years) even though they had a 10m (30ft) high seawall. Where as other areas the wave was "only" a few feet tall as shown in that video talked about earlier (The guy survived by staying in his car).

Image of a huge ship on top of an apartment building.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Post To The Left

[Post To The Left]

BBC is finally rolling back its alarmist reports and offering some interesting insights:

Because more than 70 million CT scans are carried out each year, the US National Cancer Institute has estimated that 29,000 Americans will get cancer as a result of the CT scans they received in 2007 alone..

The Daily Mail science editor, Michael Hanlon, has already boldly claimed that "what has happened in Japan should in fact be seen as a massive endorsement of nuclear power", given the success of most Japanese plants at withstanding a disaster they were never designed for.

Another thing that is conveniently ignored by the screaming alarmists is that throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s America did how many NUCLEAR BOMB TESTS. Not nuclear accidents, not run away reactions but deliberate tests, nuclear explosion tests that sent huge radiation plumes throughout western North America. What they did then makes the Japanese nuclear reactor non-crisis pall in comparison.

The American government even, in the ironically titled "Green Run" study, released radiation over the town of Hanford, Washington just a few hundred kilometers from Vancouver.

In the first few days as I saw Tokyo virtually untouched by the affects of the earthquake, and knowing Japan's extensive tsunami preparations and training I hoped that the causality numbers would be low. Unfortunately the numbers coming in just keep getting higher and higher. Yet there seems to be a deliberate attempt by people on this board to turn the focus away from people of Northern Japan who are cold, scared, and still waiting relief. The nuclear non-crisis as shown at the very worst it will be would be something like three mile island. During that incident "estimates of radiological exposure for the 2 million people in the area amounted to about one-sixth of what they might have received from a chest X-ray."

This false hysteria is harmful as in a few days when, as predicted by the nuclear experts NOT Michael Crichton, the progress at the nuclear reactors will make it impossible for alarmists to continue their fictional Chernobyl comparisons. Then people are going to be like "OK Crisis Averted," go back to their lives ignoring that Northern Japan are still in shelters without homes during a bitterly cold March.

[GostHacked]

There was no serious radiation problem for the first few days.

True, but I knew if those plants did not get power, or cooled in a couple days time span, then we'd be seeing exactly what the result ended up to be. I am not twisting anything. If anything the MSM have been twisting things and under reporting the whole nuclear aspect of this disaster.

It is only after the water level decreased to the point where the spent fuel rods were exposed. Stop trying to twist his words to mean something they do not.

Ahh ok, so we were only in a crisis once the rods were exposed .. which then give off large amounts of radiation? We are dealing with 40 year old nuclear facilities, and again to point out, 40 years worth of spent fuel rods were stored on site, in cooling pools near the top of these reactors that blew sending this crap all around the facility. Again not twisiting his words, the article states that people are dying from the radiation, which is really nothing to worry about .. right?

Also it seems that the power company that operated the facility has a history of covering up stuff.

From 2002.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20020903a1.html

Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Monday that President Nobuya Minami and Chairman Hiroshi Araki will resign over reported coverups of damage at the utility's nuclear power plants.

.....

Workers employed during the 1980s and 1990s at three nuclear plants at the center of the coverups have told internal investigators that they instructed contracted technicians to falsify reports to authorities.

.....

A former worker at the No. 1 Fukushima plant told investigators that he asked the outside contractor, General Electric International Inc., in 1986 to falsify records when it found cracks on the shroud of the No. 2 reactor. Nuclear reactors must be inspected periodically under the law.

Tepco outsourced its inspections to GEII, the Japanese unit of General Electric Co. of the United States.

A former worker at the No. 1 reactor of Fukushima No. 1 plant admitted a similar deception in inspection records on the reactor's steam drier in 1989.

In July 2000, a GEII employee notified the Ministry of International Trade and Industry, the predecessor of METI, about the 1989 case, prompting the nuclear safety agency to look into the case.

The earliest falsification occurred in 1986, and the coverups are suspected to have continued through the mid-1990s, the sources said.

Minami said, however, that judging from the circumstances and the sequence of various events, the falsification cases may have continued after 1995.

Edited March 19, 2011 by GostHacked

[TimG]

True, but I knew if those plants did not get power, or cooled in a couple days time span

You knew nothing. The cooling pools came out of left field. If it was not for them this would still be a level 4 accident and the media would have moved on.

Ahh ok, so we were only in a crisis once the rods were exposed .. which then give off large amounts of radiation?

It only became a menace to public health when the cooling pools were exposed.

We are dealing with 40 year old nuclear facilities, and again to point out, 40 years worth of spent fuel rods were stored on site

The site was 40 years old but there is *NOT* 40 years of spent fuel in those pools. They are temporary holding facilities where the fuel is cooled until it can be transported.

Again not twisiting his words, the article states that people are dying from the radiation, which is really nothing to worry about .. right?

Yes engineers being put at serious risk of harm. And yes we are in a critical situation until power gets re-established. But we are still talking about a localized disaster at this point. It may not even extend beyond the boundary of the plant once things have settled down.

I also have noticed that every disaster, everywhere in the world, leaves the public authorities looking incompetent. Is it possible that the problem here is our expectations are simple too high for any human to meet?

[TimG]

Here is the Onegawa nuclear power plant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onagawa_Nuclear_Power_Plant

Right on the sea because if the worst happens radiation blows out to the sea.

It was closer to the epicenter than Fukushima. It would have experienced waves at least as large as fukushima.

Everything worked. There was no crisis.

Here is Fukushima 2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FUKUSHMA2-NPP.JPG

It was hit by a tsunami but there was a level 3 incident that as since been resolved.

The newer design probably made the difference.

People forget the success stories. Fukushima 1 was the exception because of its old design. The fact that new designs survived should increase our confidence in nuclear power - not descrease it. Of course, this presumes that people reacted rationally.

[bush_cheney2004]

More success on Saturday....several diesel generators and cooling pump are confirmed to be serviceable.

The government says parts of the cooling systems at 2 of the 6 reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have been confirmed to be operable.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency told a news conference on Saturday that an emergency diesel generator at the No. 6 reactor has resumed operation.

The agency also said that a cooling pump, at the No. 5 reactor, has been confirmed to be usable, and that workers started cooling the spent fuel storage pool there at 5 AM on Saturday.

The agency said the radiation level at the west gate of the plant, located about 1.1 kilometers west of the No. 3 reactor, was relatively high at 830.8 microsieverts per hour at 8:10 AM. But it said the figure fell to 364.5 microsieverts at 9:00 AM.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/19_15.html

Edited March 19, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[WIP]

Chernobyl had HUGE radiation levels as well as a giant fire to spread the radiated material throught Europe. Japanese reactors never had a large fire, and the radiation was minimal. It peaked at what 900 mSv for a few hours. Staff that were present you'd assume were wearing protective clothing minimizing any radiation exposure. The New York Times today reported that US military planes confirmed what little radiation did escape has not spread from the localized area around the plant, although even with this good news they're being typically pessimistic about the plant. My understanding is there isn't much around the plant and those close enough to be affected were evacuated even before the hydrogen explosions. Wind has consistently been blowing out to sea. Unless there is some sort of secret rave you know about next to the nuclear plant I don't see all these people that are going to get radiation sickness.

I've been away for a few days, so I haven't had time to check all of the posts over the last 6 or 7 pages, but this looks like a good place to jump in because the timeline of information released by the Japanese Government, and the media coverage over here (except for Rachel Maddow) has consistently chosen the minimum estimates of present and future risks when making their assessments of the situation. Japan nuclear crisis: Timeline of official statements Your assessment of how much radiation has spread in the region around the plant is disputed by nuclear critics in Japan who point out the incestuous relationship between governments and mega-corporations...not much different than here I suppose...but the point is that there are no independent agencies allowed to monitor radiation or evaluate risk levels. Not much was said when the U.S. Navy rushed their carrier fleet away from the coast a few days ago, but obviously they were picking up radiation readings that were much more severe than the Japanese Government was claiming.

Also, the effects of radiation on people and the environment depend on radiation level X the length of exposure. The radiation levels in the area around the plant, and outside of the danger zone are going to increase since radiation will keep leaking from the damaged reactors and spent fuel containment ponds until the place can be entombed in sand and concrete - just like Chernobyl.

Once they start hooking up the plants primary cooling systems today the "crisis" will fade.

Yeah, will see about that! This is what they've been claiming all along, but as of the present time, it's still not known whether cooling systems can be re-established.

Update: At noon today NHK is reporting last night night the radiation was 292μSv this morning it is 271μSv. To convert the radiation you can do that at this site.

By comparison when Chernobyl blew its top in a giant explosion according to the site above there was a 10,189,730 μSv radiation reading.

From what I've read, these reactors at this plant are larger and contain more fuel rods than the Chernobyl reactor that exploded; and independent nuclear experts indicate that there is no way of knowing beforehand what the force of such an explosion will be. In other words, it was possible that Chernobyl could have been worse than it actually was.

[WIP]

When it's all said and done, the nuclear power industry is a government subsidized game of russian roulette! I don't know what the numbers are in Canada, but apparently in the U.S. nuclear power utilities are only required to carry 12 billion dollars worth of insurance against possible liabilities for damage. A U.S. nuclear plant located near an earthquake fault line such as Diablo Canyon in California, or the worst apparently - the Indian Point Nuclear Station close to the New York Metropolitan area would cause billions of dollars worth of damage if there was a meltdown.

The chance of a core damage from a quake at Indian Point 3 is estimated at 1 in 10,000 each year. Under NRC guidelines, that's right on the verge of requiring "immediate concern regarding adequate protection" of the public.

What are the odds? US nuke plants ranked by quake risk So much for San Andreas: Reactors in East, Midwest, South have highest chance of damage

So, what were the odds that Japan was going to get hit by a category 9.0 earthquake? I think the problem here is that we are seeing the same players motivated solely by greed, who act with careless and reckless disregard for risks that we saw in the deregulated financial meltdown on Wall Street two years ago, and the rush to war in Iraq with carefree abandon. This notion that the only alternative to coal and oil is to go nuclear, is a false choice provided by large corporate players who want to make sure that any post-oil economy has to depend on large institutional sources of power. The so called "nuclear revival" that has been claimed in recent years wouldn't even exist without government-backed loans and guarantees of limited liability before construction can start on a new nuclear facility.

[bush_cheney2004]

When it's all said and done, the nuclear power industry is a government subsidized game of russian roulette! I don't know what the numbers are in Canada, but apparently in the U.S. .....

Why not? Is such information not avaialable for Canada? If not, why not?

....The so called "nuclear revival" that has been claimed in recent years wouldn't even exist without government-backed loans and guarantees of limited liability before construction can start on a new nuclear facility.

The US government itself has operated many more nuclear power plants in naval vessels subject to even greater risks....in and out of port.

Edited March 19, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[TimG]

So, what were the odds that Japan was going to get hit by a category 9.0 earthquake? I think the problem here is that we are seeing the same players motivated solely by greed

And I suspose you want to claim the people selling windmills are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts? The fact is greed makes our society function and using it to condemn anyone you don't like is pathetic.

In the case fo Japan, they adopted nuclear power because it is the ONLY baseload power that does not leave them beholden to foreign suppliers. For that reason they were more than willing to take some calculated risks. These calculated risks paid off for the 3 other plants in the impact zone. They may still pay off forthe Fukushima I plant once the crisis is past.

The problem with people like you is you too much time wetting you pants over unlikely outcomes.

[GostHacked]

And I suspose you want to claim the people selling windmills are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts? The fact is greed makes our society function and using it to condemn anyone you don't like is pathetic.

In the case fo Japan, they adopted nuclear power because it is the ONLY baseload power that does not leave them beholden to foreign suppliers. For that reason they were more than willing to take some calculated risks. These calculated risks paid off for the 3 other plants in the impact zone. They may still pay off forthe Fukushima I plant once the crisis is past.

The problem with people like you is you too much time wetting you pants over unlikely outcomes.

The Fukushima plant is a wright off. Once you make the decision to use sea water, you have to completely rebuild the facility or abandon it. And where do they get the fuel for the reactors? Japan has their own uranium and plutonium sources?

[eyeball]

Why not? Is such information not avaialable for Canada? If not, why not?

It's a great big state secret. There's no way to tell so it's perfectly appropriate to assume it is.

Secrecy with the intent to deceive, corruption that is, is the whole point of the little circle-jerk of nuclear industry and government regulators. An incestuous blend of political power and corporate wealth if there ever was one - fascism in a word.

The PR disaster this has become for the nuclear industry is entirely the fault of the fascists that are running it. Total public awareness and total transparency is the only cure for what ails them and us.

Power and wealth is like nuclear fuel, it needs to be contained and treated as toxic right from the get go.

[jbg]

Oh yeahs...right.

nuc-u-lee-are

Best spellz thangs korrectly.

Yes, but you make such spelling errors as labour (should be labor) and harbour (should be harbor)

[GostHacked]

Yes, but you make such spelling errors as labour (should be labor) and harbour (should be harbor)

No, that is the difference between the US spelling and the Canadian spelling of those words.

[TimG]

The Fukushima plant is a wright off. Once you make the decision to use sea water, you have to completely rebuild the facility or abandon it.

It was a 40 year old facility. #1 was due to close in a month. The rest would follow in a few years.

And where do they get the fuel for the reactors? Japan has their own uranium and plutonium sources?

They have enough stock piles on had to last for years. They could never do that with coal or gas. Edited March 20, 2011 by TimG