International Women's Day 2011

[WIP]

I wasn't even aware of this until I picked up this morning's newspaper, but according to the global organizing forum - International Women's Day 2011, there are event going on all over the world. Sure, most of it is going to be bland and boring compared with all the wars and bloodshed going on. I noticed a story about the Women's Day event at Tahrir Square in Cairo Egypt, which noted that numbers were far below expectations, and those women who attended, were confronted with insults from counter-demonstrators...why are there counter demonstrators? Likely the optimism from overthrowing Mubarak is starting to fade, and Egypt will be confronted by an ugly fight between progressives and Islamists over who charts the course for the nation.

But what about over here! When I was on my way home, I'm listening to P.O.S. Mike Bullard mocking Internation Women's Day, and trying to get a call from a strip club in Toronto.....his lame notion of humour no doubt. So, how does he get work every time he gets fired from a radio or TV gig?

When I get home from work, I'll take the time to read through some of the material on the site. This board usually looks like a sausage fest since there seems to always be a lot more guys than gals here. So what do you all feel about feminism in general? And has it been a big source of progress over the last century, and benefitted both men and women (my take), or are you an anti-feminist, like the crowd surrounding the small number of women who refused to be intimidated from celebrating International Women's Day in Tahrir Square?

[RB]

The feminist movement has come a long way from making women being able to vote to defining women as a person so that they can own property, opening doors for education and employment so YES very big progress for women. There are also many backlash that comes with trying to gain equality - look at a corporate woman at the top of her game adopts characteristics of the 90% nice successful gentlemen always at top. Women still are not earning equal pay for same job as their male counterparts.

In the political arena even though the population is 53:43 women:men there is sever under-representation of women in politics, the solution injection of quotas for Canada.

If we take a look at the Sweden politics representation women is 50:50 balance - and their social systems you can see a true representation of women involvement in policy changes - a very social system. So from this end, women are not represented in policy making and therefore cannot table things that are affecting their interest e.g. abortion - how about a bunch of old male judges, and politicians help decide what constitute whether women actually own their bodies. Well women also are under-represented in court system.

If there is one thing that should be accomplished from the feminist movement is "LIBERATION" from men, their power and their practice whether intentional of putting women into roles. Women should be the ones with those unearned privileges.

Edited March 8, 2011 by RB

[Shady]

Is Women's Day really necessary? They already have Mother's Day and Valentine's Day. How many more days dedicated to them do they need? Especially in North America.

[Oleg Bach]

Happy Human Day!

[WIP]

The feminist movement has come a long way from making women being able to vote to defining women as a person so that they can own property, opening doors for education and employment so YES very big progress for women. There are also many backlash that comes with trying to gain equality - look at a corporate woman at the top of her game adopts characteristics of the 90% nice successful gentlemen always at top. Women still are not earning equal pay for same job as their male counterparts.

Nice post!

Back when I was young, the fallback arguments by conservatives against the increasing role of women in the workplace was that patriarchy was the way things always have been and the natural model of society. From what I've read by anthropologists who study the few remaining hunter/gatherers that are left, these societies, which constituted most of human history, are not patriarchal, as so many conservatives presume to be the norm.

What we call "normal," having men exclusively in leadership and women mostly relegated to home and childrearing, is something that has only been with us since the agricultural revolution began, and rewarded the most aggressive and violent members of growing social organizations. So, the arguments that feminism is tinkering or interfering with the "natural" order of things is not a valid argument to begin with. We may be venturing into unknown territory in trying to redress the discrepencies between men and women in modern society; but as you have pointed out, the societies that do the most to achieve gender equality perform better than those who only go part way or no way along this path.

In the political arena even though the population is 53:43 women:men there is sever under-representation of women in politics, the solution injection of quotas for Canada.

If we take a look at the Sweden politics representation women is 50:50 balance - and their social systems you can see a true representation of women involvement in policy changes - a very social system. So from this end, women are not represented in policy making and therefore cannot table things that are affecting their interest e.g. abortion - how about a bunch of old male judges, and politicians help decide what constitute whether women actually own their bodies. Well women also are under-represented in court system.

I imagine a lot of the opposition to efforts to bring more women into politics is related to the fear that conservatives have that they will lose control of policy-making. The first time I noticed some on the right raise alarm about women in politics was a few years ago, when I used to be mostly libertarian in my thinking; I was listening to an interview of someone long forgotten on the Cato Institute website...the point of the guest was that the size of government in modern times rose and fell depending on whether or not nations were at war. So, during the prelude to war, and during the war, spending would obviously increase; but after the war, war debts would be payed off and government spending would return to prewar levels. This economist (I presume) tied the introduction of the welfare state, and domestic spending programs to the Suffragette Movement and women achieving the right to vote. As I recall, he didn't go so far as to advocate repealing women's right to vote...Cato is a libertarian organization after all, and has to at least pretend to be hands-off on social policy, but he did put the thought out there for all of the listeners, that the more women are active in the political process, the less money will be available for war, and the more will be spent domestically. So, is that a bad thing?

[WIP]

Is Women's Day really necessary? They already have Mother's Day and Valentine's Day. How many more days dedicated to them do they need? Especially in North America.

Thanks for patronizing!

[kimmy]

The feminist movement has come a long way from making women being able to vote to defining women as a person so that they can own property, opening doors for education and employment so YES very big progress for women.

Indeed!

There are also many backlash that comes with trying to gain equality - look at a corporate woman at the top of her game adopts characteristics of the 90% nice successful gentlemen always at top.

A woman at the top adopts the characteristics of the men at the top? What does that actually mean? Is saying that successful women are acting like men kind of like saying that successful black people are "acting white"? Isn't it pretty much a gigantic insult to everyone involved?

Women still are not earning equal pay for same job as their male counterparts.

I'm highly skeptical. I don't believe there are figures to support this. I believe that the feminists have adopted "equal pay for work of equal value" because the numbers no longer support the claim that women aren't being paid the same money for doing the same job.

In the political arena even though the population is 53:43 women:men there is sever under-representation of women in politics,

Lack of mathematical ability may be one factor holding some women back.

the solution injection of quotas for Canada.

I think a large number of Canadians oppose quotas on philosophical grounds. I also think that many would interpret quotas to mean that women can't succeed on their own merits.

If we take a look at the Sweden politics representation women is 50:50 balance - and their social systems you can see a true representation of women involvement in policy changes - a very social system. So from this end, women are not represented in policy making and therefore cannot table things that are affecting their interest e.g. abortion - how about a bunch of old male judges, and politicians help decide what constitute whether women actually own their bodies. Well women also are under-represented in court system.

But women's rights, including access to abortion, have been obtained and confirmed and protected in spite of male-dominated political and judicial systems. Perhaps women making up half the electorate gives them influence in the political process in spite of the relative scarcity of female politicians? Perhaps the male judges make decisions based on the intent of the law, rather than trying to stick it to women? (Wouldn't we hope that female judges likewise make decisions based on the law rather than on gender politics?)

If there is one thing that should be accomplished from the feminist movement is "LIBERATION" from men, their power and their practice whether intentional of putting women into roles. Women should be the ones with those unearned privileges.

Who really puts women into roles? And what unearned privileges would you have women granted?

-k

[Bonam]

Is Women's Day really necessary? They already have Mother's Day and Valentine's Day. How many more days dedicated to them do they need? Especially in North America.

Who are you kidding? As guys, we think about women every few seconds/minutes. From a hetero guy's perspective, every day is "women's day'.

In the political arena even though the population is 53:43 women:men there is sever under-representation of women in politics,

Lack of mathematical ability may be one factor holding some women back.

:lol:

Edited March 10, 2011 by Bonam

[M.Dancer]

the solution injection of quotas for Canada.

I agree quotas are the only solution because women simply could never get there based on their own merit....

[RB]

Lack of mathematical ability may be one factor holding some women back

-k

53:43 ratio, WTH

I had a good chuckle at this one - saying things fast you haven't thought of as yet. Don't write with those ipad thingy if you don't see too well either....so short reply

[RB]

Women still are not earning equal pay for same job as their male counterparts.

I will try to explain a reason why some folks say a man and woman are accessing equal job and there seem to be no gap in pay.

Say a man and woman applies for the same job, they have the same talent, and competencies. However there is a "sexist" boss hiring and prefers the male. There is probably no stats on this but women also prefer to hire the male, because they are plugged into the boy's network. The only way the woman can counter offer hiring over the male is to negotiate a lower pay.

The "sexist" hiring boss hires the women because he saves 30% on someone who can do the same job, a reason why women are found in high positions with lower salary. The hiring women hires the male for actual or more than their worth.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2001157-eng.pdf shows men still have a wage advantage over women.

[Bonam]

Women still are not earning equal pay for same job as their male counterparts.

I will try to explain a reason why some folks say a man and woman are accessing equal job and there seem to be no gap in pay.

Say a man and woman applies for the same job, they have the same talent, and competencies. However there is a "sexist" boss hiring and prefers the male. There is probably no stats on this but women also prefer to hire the male, because they are plugged into the boy's network. The only way the woman can counter offer hiring over the male is to negotiate a lower pay.

The "sexist" hiring boss hires the women because he saves 30% on someone who can do the same job, a reason why women are found in high positions with lower salary. The hiring women hires the male for actual or more than their worth.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2001157-eng.pdf shows men still have a wage advantage over women.

The first thing a "sexist" male boss would do is surround himself with beautiful women, if he could find any to hire that are even half qualified for the jobs in question. You honestly think a typical male manager would rather have a member of the "old boys network" as a coworker/employee than an attractive woman? And lets face it, to a bored dude sitting in an office, almost any woman is attractive.

[Jack Weber]

Women still are not earning equal pay for same job as their male counterparts.

I will try to explain a reason why some folks say a man and woman are accessing equal job and there seem to be no gap in pay.

Say a man and woman applies for the same job, they have the same talent, and competencies. However there is a "sexist" boss hiring and prefers the male. There is probably no stats on this but women also prefer to hire the male, because they are plugged into the boy's network. The only way the woman can counter offer hiring over the male is to negotiate a lower pay.

The "sexist" hiring boss hires the women because he saves 30% on someone who can do the same job, a reason why women are found in high positions with lower salary. The hiring women hires the male for actual or more than their worth.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2001157-eng.pdf shows men still have a wage advantage over women.

Wait a minute...

Two things...

Choices and biology..

1.Choices...As a tradesperson,I find very few women enter the "trades".That's not to say I have not run into women that would do that type of work,but comparitively few seem to willingly go into that line of work.That might have to do with some fear of entering a male dominated area of the workforce,however,this has been my observation...I find many women simply choose to work in areas that might be more personally fulfilling,but don't necessarily pay that great.I'm thinking of the service sector and things like social work...

Anecdotally,I can remember an add for Ontario Hydro specifically asking for women applicants(we can discuss the politically correct sexism of that ad later) back about 15 years ago in the Hamilton Spectator for linesmen...I remember my Mom asking my sister to apply for that job because it said they were willing to train and no experience was necessary...She said she was'nt really interested in doing that because it did'nt interest her,and besides,she might scratch some of her nail polish!!!..She was working as a manager at the Sheraton Hotel in downtown Hamilton at the time,and this entry level position would have paid at least as much as she was making at the hotel!!!

Simply put,a bad financial decision as it relates to a potential career move...

Choices...

2.Biology...I'm afraid that no matter what,women will always have to deal with the financial loss that child bearing brings.

That's a simple fact of biology...I realize that men have the option of taking time out of thier working lives to take care of newborn infants,however,I have found that women choose this route more than often...

The "Mommy Gap" cannot be breached....

[Oleg Bach]

Everyday is Christmas - and in my world everyday is womans' day...I understand that females are the most important thing in the world...only thing above a woman is God...I just love them....and when you truely love females - they will also love you. If you do NOT love woman....the world will do a slow spiral into hell....The greatest myth that generated woman hate was that stupid Adam and Eve story....It may have been Eve's suggestion but it was Adams decision....to blame a woman for your own mistakes is what rots the world. Male kind committed the first breach into sinisterism - it was NOT the woman...this great lie that a woman is responsible for sinisterism....is what has ruined this heaven.

[Oleg Bach]

It is the slandering of woman historically that has pissed them off..no one likes to be lied about---slander and lible create an atmosphere of suffering..that is not deserved - That is why there are laws regarding the wrecking of someones reputation.....Human deception - both male and female...used to gain an advatage always creates a disadvantage...all my old wife asks of me is kindness and fairness...How hard can that be..in turn she is kind and good to me.

[M.Dancer]

I was at a board of trade thingy this week where one of the discussions surrounded gender diversity in the board room.

No one argues that the current ratio is good or desirable and no one is arguing that a legislative solution will improve the quality of directors or enhance or global competitiveness...

A couple of things to note from the discussion.

• Currently in Canada women make up just under 14% of the membership of listed, crown and non profit boards.
  
• New directors are appointed from senior executive management where women make up only 16%
  
• Last year, 50% of board positions that opened up were filled by women
  

There is a systemic problem being there are more positions available than qualified women to fill them, but that is changing as more and more women complete Executive MBAa and ICD.D programmes....even so, because of attrition, a sizable portion of women who may be qualified (and for that matter, most men wouldn't want to make the sacrifices that directors make) simply do not want to devote their lives to a board and give up things like a child rearing and being a mother...

So that goal of 50% of the boards being women is probably not realistic...but 30-40% is.

[WIP]

Wait a minute...

Two things...

Choices and biology..

1.Choices...As a tradesperson,I find very few women enter the "trades".That's not to say I have not run into women that would do that type of work,but comparitively few seem to willingly go into that line of work.That might have to do with some fear of entering a male dominated area of the workforce,however,this has been my observation...I find many women simply choose to work in areas that might be more personally fulfilling,but don't necessarily pay that great.I'm thinking of the service sector and things like social work...

Anecdotally,I can remember an add for Ontario Hydro specifically asking for women applicants(we can discuss the politically correct sexism of that ad later) back about 15 years ago in the Hamilton Spectator for linesmen...I remember my Mom asking my sister to apply for that job because it said they were willing to train and no experience was necessary...She said she was'nt really interested in doing that because it did'nt interest her,and besides,she might scratch some of her nail polish!!!..She was working as a manager at the Sheraton Hotel in downtown Hamilton at the time,and this entry level position would have paid at least as much as she was making at the hotel!!!

Simply put,a bad financial decision as it relates to a potential career move...

Choices...

2.Biology...I'm afraid that no matter what,women will always have to deal with the financial loss that child bearing brings.

That's a simple fact of biology...I realize that men have the option of taking time out of thier working lives to take care of newborn infants,however,I have found that women choose this route more than often...

The "Mommy Gap" cannot be breached....

These "choices" may explain part of the reason for wage gaps, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I can see no.1 being a factor to some extent; but since my workplace went co-ed about 20 years ago, there seem to be plenty of young women who will take a dirty job that pays better than the usual female occupations. But no.2 - biology - is exactly why a decent system of childcare is necessary. If something as basic as the fact that women have the babies...isn't part of the calculus, then that's as far as progress will go towards becoming an equal society.

I noticed from a quick look around link link that some basic factors that are hard to quantify - like the tendency for men to be more aggressive than women - are likely a big part of the reason why young female university graduates are working for 20% less money than men with the same education. If men tend to be more assertive, and more aggressive in their demands, they may either get fired, or actually get what they want...squeaky wheel gets the grease etc.. Of course this sort of dynamic can play out during times of low unemployment; in the last couple of years it's hard to see relatively inexperienced 20 somethings barging into the boss's office demanding more money!

[WIP]

Indeed!

But women's rights, including access to abortion, have been obtained and confirmed and protected in spite of male-dominated political and judicial systems. Perhaps women making up half the electorate gives them influence in the political process in spite of the relative scarcity of female politicians?

How secure are those rights such as access to abortion in Canada...if you've been watching what conservatives have done in the U.S. by any chance? Women may make up half the electorate in theory, but women do not turn out to vote as often as men, even among the under 30's, where voter turnout is falling off the cliff -- Examining Declining Voter Turnout Among Canada's Youth Yesterday, when I listened to a podcast edition of The Current episode, one of the points a CBC executive made was that CBC's main political discussion show - Power and Politics, only has a 20% female audience. So, the anecdotal experiences that many men feel...that women aren't interested in politics...seems to have some basis in fact. If there are relatively few female political office holders, politics is seen as a male thing at a subconscious level, if not an actual belief. So, one way to remedy the gap would be to force the backroom players in politics to go out there and get more women as candidates for elected office.

When it comes to the youth gap...that's a whole nother problem entirely. Even a lot of us who are older, are disillusioned and frustrated with the political process, so I can't blame the under 30's for seeing it as a waste of an afternoon or evening to go the polls.

A woman at the top adopts the characteristics of the men at the top? What does that actually mean? Is saying that successful women are acting like men kind of like saying that successful black people are "acting white"? Isn't it pretty much a gigantic insult to everyone involved?

Women in management are expected to act like men, so it should come as no surprise that ambitious Carly Fiorina - types decide that they have to be twice as ruthless as men to rise to the ranks of CEO.

Edited March 10, 2011 by WIP

[Scotty]

Women still are not earning equal pay for same job as their male counterparts.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2001157-eng.pdf shows men still have a wage advantage over women.

Female strippers earn a lot more than male strippers...

[M.Dancer]

The hiring women hires the male for actual or more than their worth.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2001157-eng.pdf shows men still have a wage advantage over women.

That is over 10 years old...

[RB]

That is over 10 years old...

Well, not much has changed from 10 years – slow crawl for women

Below find very recent up to date information – echo from the journal of 10 years ago

CBC News March 3, 2011. Executive gender gap remains. Growth in the number of women who advance to the executive ranks at Canada's largest companies has slowed to a crawl in the past two years, a major study has found.

Executive gender gap remains.

Why the executive suite is the final frontier for women - “I was so fed up being told there were no capable women. I had to stand up and tell them that I thought they were stupid,” Ms. Yaffe, chief operating officer of Alliance Atlantis Communications

Why the executive suite is the final frontier for women

Representation of women in the Canadian and U.S. work forces

Representation of women in the Canadian and U.S. work forces

[Moonlight Graham]

Women sure get the short end of the stick in terms of equality, both in opportunity and wages.

It's slowly been improving in Canada. In developing countries, the situation of women compared to men is ridiculously bad. Where most people are poor, women and children are the poorest. Women are also treated inhumanely in many regards, including abuse, rape, human trafficking etc.

I'm glad their are awareness campaigns for these issues. I would consider myself a feminist and hope equality and rights for women continues to improve.

[M.Dancer]

Well, not much has changed from 10 years – slow crawl for women

Below find very recent up to date information – echo from the journal of 10 years ago

CBC News March 3, 2011. Executive gender gap remains. Growth in the number of women who advance to the executive ranks at Canada's largest companies has slowed to a crawl in the past two years, a major study has found.

Executive gender gap remains.

That survey is correct but it is not indicative across the board. The are huge differences between the TSX 500 and the remaining 2700 off companies on the TSX. Companies like BMO, who have 17 directors, do not choose rookie directors. So if you want to measure the rise of women in corporate ranks the last place you will look are at large cap companies. Large cap companies require their boards tro be effective, and to carry with them a diversity of experiences...you will find tomorrows large cap board member on a small cap board today.

The other thing is, on large cap boards tend to be older...the average age of the director is 60...very few women in that age group have executive MBAs, ICD.Ds or have had executive management experience...in other words, the talent pool is quite small.

23% of BMOs board are women.

You want to measure the growth of women in the C-suite...you have to look at the juniors...where they are cutting their teeth, where the average age is 15 years younger and where the large cap leaders of tomorrow are being nurtured.

[RB]

That survey is correct but it is not indicative across the board. The are huge differences between the TSX 500 and the remaining 2700 off companies on the TSX. Companies like BMO, who have 17 directors, do not choose rookie directors....

The other thing is, on large cap boards tend to be older...the average age of the director is 60...very few women in that age group have executive MBAs, ICD.Ds or have had executive management experience...in other words, the talent pool is quite small.

Hello Dancer

Well, I can see that I can take you seriously now. You are correct in the your analysis. However it is the large cap companies that give the opening to diversity inclusive of women and for other companies to follow. Deloitte, Home Depot were faced with class action lawsuits by women and are examples of changes to include women. Their recruiting practices have changed, and the promotion strategy have change. It includes mentoring just to mention one good among many.

As a woman accessing higher opportunity Deloitte would be the very top of my list.

Citigroup’s Smith Barney, Merrill Lynch, and Morgan Stanley denied systemic discrimination against women, however paid millions to settle. I suggest other financial institution follow similar culture of denial. Women are sold short even with the MBA, even when performance should be as objective - there is an actual person with embedded unconscious who can be subjective on the take of the issue of performance and portrayed objective - with expected results.

I see the cutting teeth, and I remain optimistic.

Thanks for the reply.

[kimmy]

Wait a minute...

Two things...

Choices and biology..

1.Choices...As a tradesperson,I find very few women enter the "trades".That's not to say I have not run into women that would do that type of work,but comparitively few seem to willingly go into that line of work.That might have to do with some fear of entering a male dominated area of the workforce,however,this has been my observation...I find many women simply choose to work in areas that might be more personally fulfilling,but don't necessarily pay that great.I'm thinking of the service sector and things like social work...

Anecdotally,I can remember an add for Ontario Hydro specifically asking for women applicants(we can discuss the politically correct sexism of that ad later) back about 15 years ago in the Hamilton Spectator for linesmen...I remember my Mom asking my sister to apply for that job because it said they were willing to train and no experience was necessary...She said she was'nt really interested in doing that because it did'nt interest her,and besides,she might scratch some of her nail polish!!!..She was working as a manager at the Sheraton Hotel in downtown Hamilton at the time,and this entry level position would have paid at least as much as she was making at the hotel!!!

Simply put,a bad financial decision as it relates to a potential career move...

Choices...

I strongly believe this is the primary factor.

In school we had guests from an organisation that was dedicated to promoting science, engineering, and technology as fields for women. We met a female engineer one week. A female computer programmer another time. A female PhD candidate who was doing research on plant DNA or something.

It is really disheartening to think back and recall how my peers reacted after those sessions. "How LAME!" "What a nerd!" "LOL! As IF!" And most sadly, I was one of them, because peer pressure is pretty powerful.

Not sure where it starts, but it seems like these ideas are pretty engraved before highschool. Then again, this was before Catherine Willows was on TV, so maybe the idea of women in lab coats is cooler now.

How secure are those rights such as access to abortion in Canada...if you've been watching what conservatives have done in the U.S. by any chance? Women may make up half the electorate in theory, but women do not turn out to vote as often as men, even among the under 30's, where voter turnout is falling off the cliff -- Examining Declining Voter Turnout Among Canada's Youth Yesterday, when I listened to a podcast edition of The Current episode, one of the points a CBC executive made was that CBC's main political discussion show - Power and Politics, only has a 20% female audience. So, the anecdotal experiences that many men feel...that women aren't interested in politics...seems to have some basis in fact. If there are relatively few female political office holders, politics is seen as a male thing at a subconscious level, if not an actual belief. So, one way to remedy the gap would be to force the backroom players in politics to go out there and get more women as candidates for elected office. (...)

I don't see womens' own apathy as a compelling reason for some sort of legislated intervention on their behalf. It seems to me that given the general state of voter apathy in Canada, a candidate or a platform that energized female voters would be the political equivalent of Thor's Hammer, and the failure of any party to find such a platform kind of suggests to me that most women aren't actually too upset about any particular issues.

Women in management are expected to act like men, so it should come as no surprise that ambitious Carly Fiorina - types decide that they have to be twice as ruthless as men to rise to the ranks of CEO.

"Act like men" means to be ruthless? I don't think the values and priorities and attitudes of male CEOs are reflective of the male gender as a whole. I don't think that most men would make the kinds of decisions CEOs make or choose the priorities that CEOs have chosen.

I think the men who rise to the rank of CEO have gotten their based on their ability to act like CEOs (for better or worse.)

I think those rare women who achieve the rank of CEO are there because they act like CEOs.

Again, I think the idea that women who succeed in business are "acting like men" is a big insult to everybody involved. I think they're acting like business-people, which is probably just insulting to business-people.

-k