Scotty Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Still, the article indicated a high support for immigration as well as a high rate of immigration, as well as immigrant-friendliness as you point out. All in all, it seems to point towards a good system. From the perspective of the immigrant? Sure. I'm not so sure it's doing well by the people already here, though. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Michael Hardner Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 But it could still be better... I'll drink to that. Canada can be the best in all categories if we stop acting so Canadian and start confronting our weaknesses. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 From the perspective of the immigrant? Sure. I'm not so sure it's doing well by the people already here, though. The article indicated a high degree of support for immigration as I said. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 The two countries above us really don't have integration problems at all. We haven't had many problems either, and we have the highest immigration rate on the planet. You're a good fellow Smallc...but, we'll have to disagree. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Smallc Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 No, it shows that you have to not just read the headline. I read the whole story. You don't like the methodology, fine. That doesn't mean the study doesn't make very important points in terms of Canada's success with immigration. Quote
Smallc Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 You're a good fellow Smallc...but, we'll have to disagree. That's fine. I'm not always right, so I would expect people to disagree with me. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Those sources look suspicious to me. Can you please provide a link on those stats ? The Wiki on crime in Sweden indicates a 58% rise in 10 years - making a 3X increase over past 20 years reported in these sources is suspicious, and sources that link here. Scotty - to point out again, there are some stats that you posted that indicate blame on a certain group in Sweden for crimes. As I'm sure you're aware, such data are highly charged as they provide a clear attribution for crime, and usually spark a strong reaction. As you may not be aware, such statistics are often misused and misreported by groups who are trying to drum up support for nationalistic agendas. At the worst, there are hate groups who simply make such things up, post them on the web and wait for them to be cited and repeated. As such, it's important to use valid statistics in this regard, not anecdotal information or information from dubious sources - if you use them at all. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Evening Star Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Yeah, this sounds especially dubious: Although it is not stated, most of the immigrant perpetrators are Muslims. Quote
jbg Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Scotty - to point out again, there are some stats that you posted that indicate blame on a certain group in Sweden for crimes. As I'm sure you're aware, such data are highly charged as they provide a clear attribution for crime, and usually spark a strong reaction.Is it not a fact that the particular group has turned Malmo into a hellhole similar to the countries they left behind? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Michael Hardner Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Is it not a fact that the particular group has turned Malmo into a hellhole similar to the countries they left behind? Is it not ? Let's see some evidence and discuss what went wrong, if that's true. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Scotty Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 I read the whole story. You don't like the methodology, fine. That doesn't mean the study doesn't make very important points in terms of Canada's success with immigration. It makes NO such points. If you think it does I would suggest you name them. The study says absolutely NOTHING about Canada's success or failure in integrating newcomers. It studies policies and laws only and then gives a score based on its assessment of those policies and laws. It does not study success or failure at anything. It marks Sweden as the most successful, despite the fact Sweden clearly has an awful lot more problems with integrating newcomers than Canada or the United States. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) Those sources look suspicious to me. Can you please provide a link on those stats ? The Wiki on crime in Sweden indicates a 58% rise in 10 years - making a 3X increase over past 20 years reported in these sources is suspicious, and sources that link here. I don't know what Wicky is claiming, but these claims are for specific types of crimes, ie, rape. as in The study, which is financed by the Brussels-based EU fund Daphne II, compared how the respective judicial systems managed rape cases across eleven EU countries. Sweden is shown in an unfavourable light, according to the study. The high figures in Sweden can not it seems be explained purely by an increased tendency to report rapes and other more minor sexual offences. Rape simply appears to be a more common occurrence in Sweden than in the other EU countries studied, the researchers argue. Over 5,000 rapes are reported in Sweden per annum while reports in other countries of a comparable size amounted to only a few hundred. sweden rape Most sexual assaults in Oslo by non western immigrants The number of rape charges per capita in Malmö is 5 to 6 times that of Copenhagen, Denmark. Copenhagen is a larger city, but the percentage of immigrants is much lower. And it’s not just the rape statistics that reveal a scary increase in Malmö or Sweden. Virtually every kind of violent crime is on the rise. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004. Threats against witnesses in Swedish court cases have quadrupled between 2000 and 2003. During the past few decades, massive immigration has changed the face of Sweden’s major cities, as well as challenged the viability of the welfare state. In 1970 Sweden had the fourth highest GDP per capita among developed countries with income about 6% above the OECD average. By 1997 it was at fifteenth place with an average GDP per capita 14% below average. Malmö has a heavy concentration of Muslim immigrants in particular. According to some estimates, it will be a Muslim majority city in no more then 10 years. Crime is rampant in the growing ghettos: Rape and violence rising across Scandinavia Alarmed at last week’s police statistics, which revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed this year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority, leading Muslim organisations have now formed an alliance to fight the ever-growing problem of young second and third-generation immigrants involved in rape cases against young Danish girls. Edited March 2, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Smallc Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) It marks Sweden as the most successful, despite the fact Sweden clearly has an awful lot more problems with integrating newcomers than Canada or the United States. Based on what, exactly? Crime rate data that you've presented is far from definitive. Edited March 2, 2011 by Smallc Quote
Scotty Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Is it not ? Let's see some evidence and discuss what went wrong, if that's true. The number of rape charges per capita in Malmö is 5 to 6 times that of Copenhagen, Denmark. Copenhagen is a larger city, but the percentage of immigrants is much lower. And it’s not just the rape statistics that reveal a scary increase in Malmö or Sweden. Virtually every kind of violent crime is on the rise. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004. Threats against witnesses in Swedish court cases have quadrupled between 2000 and 2003. During the past few decades, massive immigration has changed the face of Sweden’s major cities, as well as challenged the viability of the welfare state. In 1970 Sweden had the fourth highest GDP per capita among developed countries with income about 6% above the OECD average. By 1997 it was at fifteenth place with an average GDP per capita 14% below average. Malmö has a heavy concentration of Muslim immigrants in particular. According to some estimates, it will be a Muslim majority city in no more then 10 years. Crime is rampant in the growing ghettos: Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) Is it not ? Let's see some evidence and discuss what went wrong, if that's true. Immigration transforming Sweden Edited March 2, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Michael Hardner Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Immigration transforming Sweden That article doesn't source its stats, and includes anecdotal information, hearsay... "The German journalist Udo Ulfkotte told in a recent interview that in Holland, you can now see examples of young, unveiled Moroccan women with a so-called “smiley”. " I think I explained why it's important to use well sourced information for such an incendiary topic. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 The number of rape charges per capita in Malmö is 5 to 6 times that of Copenhagen, Denmark. Copenhagen is a larger city, but the percentage of immigrants is much lower. And it’s not just the rape statistics that reveal a scary increase in Malmö or Sweden. Virtually every kind of violent crime is on the rise. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004. Threats against witnesses in Swedish court cases have quadrupled between 2000 and 2003. During the past few decades, massive immigration has changed the face of Sweden’s major cities, as well as challenged the viability of the welfare state. In 1970 Sweden had the fourth highest GDP per capita among developed countries with income about 6% above the OECD average. By 1997 it was at fifteenth place with an average GDP per capita 14% below average. Malmö has a heavy concentration of Muslim immigrants in particular. According to some estimates, it will be a Muslim majority city in no more then 10 years. Crime is rampant in the growing ghettos: Here you used information from elsewhere without sourcing it. That's against the rules on MLW. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Scotty, why don't you start with Wikipedia. They source their data. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Scotty Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Here you used information from elsewhere without sourcing it. That's against the rules on MLW. I actually did source it in the post above. I at first thought, due to the specific mention of Malmo, to cut that quote and its source and past them in the other post, but only got the quote. Then I found a different source and posted that, but it turend out to be in a different post... Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Michael Hardner Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 I actually did source it in the post above. I at first thought, due to the specific mention of Malmo, to cut that quote and its source and past them in the other post, but only got the quote. Then I found a different source and posted that, but it turend out to be in a different post... That's a common mistake, actually. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Scotty Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) Scotty, why don't you start with Wikipedia. They source their data. Why? The only thing you've mentioned from Wikipedia is a general crime rate increase which does not contradict any of the claims with regard to specific types of crime or crime in certain cities, such as Malmo. In any event, without getting into the specifics of why rape in Sweden is many times what it is elsewhere, I think, based upon the wide variety of postings talking about immigrant crimes and rape in Sweden, and violence and riots, etc, that Sweden is not handling its integration better than Canada. You don't see such postings about Toronto, do you? edited to add. This is what Wiki had to say about Sweden and rape. In 2009 there were 15,700[4] reported sexual offenses in Sweden, a rise of 8% compared to 2008, of which 5,940 were rape and sexual harassment (including exhibitionism) accounted for 7,590 reports.[1] In April 2009, it was reported that sex crimes had increased by 58% over the previous ten years.[5] According to a 2009 European Union study, Sweden has one of the highest rates of reported rape in Europe.[6] There is debate about why this number is so high (almost 168 sexual offences per 100,000 inhabitants). An opinion is that this is not because sexual violence is more common in Sweden, but due to other factors, such as the practice of counting multiple crimes against a single victim (such as from long time domestic abuse) according to Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (BRÅ) [1], much higher reporting of sex crimes by the victims than in other cultures, and a much broader definition of criminal sexual behavior and more progressive attitudes towards what constitutes sexual victimization (Sweden has been a pioneer in its approach to rape - for instance it was one of the first countries in the world to outlaw marital rape in 1965,[7] much earlier than other Western countries - e.g. Germany outlawed it only in 1997[8]). However, a different view maintains that Sweden has indeed a serious problem with sexual crimes: in 2009, in a European Union study, the researcher stated that Sweden's high rape rate cannot be explained purely by a greater tendency to report rapes but reflected that rape was more common in Sweden.[6] Amnesty International blamed Sweden's "deeply rooted patriarchal gender norms",[5] (however in 2006 Sweden was ranked as the number one country in gender equality[9]). Immigrants were five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes.[3] Edited March 2, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Michael Hardner Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Why? The only thing you've mentioned from Wikipedia is a general crime rate increase which does not contradict any of the claims with regard to specific types of crime or crime in certain cities, such as Malmo. It's not up to me to prove your point, it's up to you to prove it. In any event, without getting into the specifics of why rape in Sweden is many times what it is elsewhere, I think, based upon the wide variety of postings talking about immigrant crimes and rape in Sweden, and violence and riots, etc, that Sweden is not handling its integration better than Canada. You don't see such postings about Toronto, do you? Uh, no... but you just posted a slew of links that blame an identifiable group for crime rates - are you taking that back now ? This is what Wiki had to say about Sweden and rape. In 2009 there were 15,700[4] reported sexual offenses in Sweden, a rise of 8% compared to 2008, of which 5,940 were rape and sexual harassment (including exhibitionism) accounted for 7,590 reports.[1] In April 2009, it was reported that sex crimes had increased by 58% over the previous ten years.[5] According to a 2009 European Union study, Sweden has one of the highest rates of reported rape in Europe.[6] There is debate about why this number is so high (almost 168 sexual offences per 100,000 inhabitants). An opinion is that this is not because sexual violence is more common in Sweden, but due to other factors, such as the practice of counting multiple crimes against a single victim (such as from long time domestic abuse) according to Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (BRÅ) [1], much higher reporting of sex crimes by the victims than in other cultures, and a much broader definition of criminal sexual behavior and more progressive attitudes towards what constitutes sexual victimization (Sweden has been a pioneer in its approach to rape - for instance it was one of the first countries in the world to outlaw marital rape in 1965,[7] much earlier than other Western countries - e.g. Germany outlawed it only in 1997[8]). However, a different view maintains that Sweden has indeed a serious problem with sexual crimes: in 2009, in a European Union study, the researcher stated that Sweden's high rape rate cannot be explained purely by a greater tendency to report rapes but reflected that rape was more common in Sweden.[6] Amnesty International blamed Sweden's "deeply rooted patriarchal gender norms",[5] (however in 2006 Sweden was ranked as the number one country in gender equality[9]). Immigrants were five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes.[3] Keep looking then. If you can't find credible evidence for the claim that immigrants are behind this, then maybe they're not. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Saipan Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 Sweden has been suffering under exploding crime waves since the beginning of the mass immigration era from Muslim countries. http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/sweden-soaring-crime-rates-directly-related-to-rampant-muslim-immigration/ Crime in Sweden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden France overun by Moslems of low education and qualification. Crime up. http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/FranceCrimeEscalates.htm http://www.economist.com/node/15913046?story_id=15913046 http://www.economist.com/node/999074 Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 http://www.economist.com/node/15913046?story_id=15913046 http://www.economist.com/node/999074 My eyebrows went up when I saw those legitimate sources, but there isn't a specific mention of any religion in there, just about immigrants in general in the French suburbs. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
jbg Posted March 2, 2011 Report Posted March 2, 2011 My eyebrows went up when I saw those legitimate sources, but there isn't a specific mention of any religion in there, just about immigrants in general in the French suburbs. The identity of the immigrants in the French suburbs is well known. I don't know why every post must be laden with URL's to make an obvious, common-sense point. Unless people want to dodge the obvious by making the simple complex. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
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