Martin vs. Harper - Good vs. Evil

[Hawk]

I am getting a little tired of the baby boomers aging and overloading the system nonsense. The younger people today go running to the doctor every time they sneeze. I am 62; In the last 20 years; I have probably gone to the doctor 3 times and then walked out once for being ignored and left to rot. Prescriptions; last one was around 1980. Most of you younger ones have probably visited a doctor more in the last year than I have in 20 years.

The politicians are not the problem with Health Care; we are. Running to the doctor for nothing.

ceasar, you and I agree on something at last xD

Our health-care is in trouble not only because of lack of funding (heaven knows we throw so much cash its amazing how quickly it dissapears) but because of the population abusing it and inefficiency in the system itself.

That is why I support privatization, stop forcing the government to support ALL our healthcare and end up with a crippled and incompetent system... allow some healthy competition, end up with more jobs, and also better service

[playfullfellow]

am getting a little tired of the baby boomers aging and overloading the system nonsense. The younger people today go running to the doctor every time they sneeze. I am 62; In the last 20 years; I have probably gone to the doctor 3 times and then walked out once for being ignored and left to rot. Prescriptions; last one was around 1980. Most of you younger ones have probably visited a doctor more in the last year than I have in 20 years.

Fianally I find something I can agree with you on caesar. I must admit, I go to the doctor every 5 years but that is because the government says I have to keep my class 1 license. Guess they dont want any ill health truckers out there on the roads. Been in a couple of times to get sewn back together due to work related injuries but aside from that, nadda. You are the same age as my folks and they have the same attitude as you, they despise doctors and their pills. Keep healthy caesar and cheers to you.

[noelandmero]

am getting a little tired of the baby boomers aging and overloading the system nonsense. The younger people today go running to the doctor every time they sneeze. I am 62; In the last 20 years; I have probably gone to the doctor 3 times and then walked out once for being ignored and left to rot. Prescriptions; last one was around 1980. Most of you younger ones have probably visited a doctor more in the last year than I have in 20 years.

If it were not for all of these people running in every time there temp. was up by one degree or they have a cold or there legs were cramping I would be hard pressed to make any money and not only that I would have to work for my money too. God I love the new generation of hypocondriacs. But I agree with this statement 100% 60% of the people in my office have no good reason to be there. Good for me not so good if the tax payer is paying rhe bill.

[playfullfellow]

at least you are honest noel, guessing you are a doc from your post. Just wondering, from a doctors point of view and wages aside, why did you leave Canada to go to the US and work? Just curious if it has anything to do with the current state of healthcare and might you have some insights as to how to fix it?

[Argus]

I am getting a little tired of the baby boomers aging and overloading the system nonsense.  The younger people today go running to the doctor every time they sneeze.  I am 62; In the last 20 years; I have probably gone to the doctor 3 times and then walked out once for being ignored and left to rot.  Prescriptions; last one was around 1980.  Most of you younger ones have probably visited a doctor more in the last year than I have in 20 years.

The politicians are not the problem with Health Care; we are.  Running to the doctor for nothing.

Don't extrapolate system usage from your personal experience. Statistically speaking as people get older they need more and more use of the health care system, and more and more drugs. Every senior I know is on multiple prescriptions, all of which are paid for by the provincial government. Go to any hospital and you'll find most of the people in the beds are seniors, or very close to being seniors.

Just like anything else, the human body tends to break down more as it ages.

[noelandmero]

I left Canada almost entierly because I wanted to run my buisness my way and if it worked be rewarded for it. In Canada this is very difficult as the government tells you how you are going to do things and what you are going to get paid. Then of course Alberta although a wonderful place has shit weather. The best thing canada could do to help keep healthcare professionals I feel is to alow some privatization of non-essential services and add co-pays. An example would be an orthopedist doing knee replacement surgery he must do 80% for the public system and is then allowed to charge 20% of people who want to jump the line. Ie. for every 8 done in the public system he can do to privately. Also I would send out quarterly reports to everyone letting them know how much of there tax money went to healthcare. Health care in Canada is not free and Canadians need to understand that. Overall the Canadian system is better for society than the US system but people do not become doctors only to benifit society. I am willing to admit there is also a huge finacial component that induce people to become doctors. The government needs to recognize this and allow some entrepenurial spirit into the field otherwise more and more doctors will leave. After all if I wanted to be a wage slave there are much easier paths than this one.

[Michael Hardner]

The government needs to recognize this and allow some entrepenurial spirit into the field otherwise more and more doctors will leave. After all if I wanted to be a wage slave there are much easier paths than this one.

Why is reform needed again ? Because doctors don't make enough money ? Why isn't $150 K enough ? Because they can make more in the US ?

This is obviously a market-driven problem. There's a shortage of doctors in the US, which is driving up their salaries.

Why don't we just open up medical schools to anyone who applies ?

Why isn't the market working ?!?

[noelandmero]

Doctors run a buisness they do not have jobs with salaries in the US or Canada. Would you ever open a buisness risk youre capital if I told you there was no gurantee you would make 150k but the most you could ever make was 150K. Why invest time and money into something that is capped I could potentially make more money collecting cans. If I showed up at CIBC tomorrow and asked for a 500K loan to setup this kind of buisness they would say get bent. This argument is all about potential would you go to work and work hard if you were going to get the same no matter what.

[Sully]

Sully; Everytime you Harperites .......

Firstly, I am a C-O-N-S-E-R-V-A-T-I-V-E, I do not know why you are calling me a "Harperite"? Anyways let us get back to reality for a minute Caesar, if we can. I am not the one who openly supports a liar, a crook and a hypocrite, Bravo!!!

Let us have a closer look at Paul Martin for a minute:

Health Care

What he preaches:

Everyone is equal, no queue jumping, NO PRIVITIZATION (remember how he had Pettigrew recant his remarks), maintaining the ailing health care system we have and the one he directly contributed too.

What he practices:

Uses private for profit MRI clinic to service his own personal health needs.

Being a transparent govt., honest and erasing democratic deficit:

What he preaches:

He will eliminate the democratic deficit, would get to the bottom of the sponsorship scandal BEFORE the election, has he satisfied the public on that account, hmmmm thats a big NOPE

What he practices:

Tells Klein to come clean with his Alberta health care agenda, before the day of the election. Challenges Klein to be open and transparent.

More democratic deficit elimination

What he preaches:

He will de-centralize the power of the PMO and allow free votes for MPs (give backbenchers more of a say)

What he practices:

Appoints candidates left, right and centre regardless that these "star" candidates are placed there over Liberals who were nominated through a DEMOCRATIC process in those areas. Now says MPs should vote along party lines.

Military

What he preaches:

Says he is glad he did not support the Americans and send troops, yet he has troops in Iraq and will not support them. WOW, what a leader!!!

What he practices:

Jumps on Harper saying he would have sent Canadian troops to Iraq, which remains unproven!!!! Accuses Cons of buying equipment that they are not going to buy.

Notwithstanding Clause

What he preaches:

He would use the clause to protect the right of Church's to perform marriages as they saw fit.

What he practices:

Would not say whether or not he would ever use the Notwithstanding Clause when asked during the debate.

Child Porn

What he preaches:

It was such a priority for him personally and the Liberal party to address this issue

What he practices:

It was such a priority that Martin called an election before the child porn bill that was before parliament passed and now will be delayed and put on the back burner for who knows how long.

Now for you Caesar!!!

you Harperites try to change the subject regarding the danger that Harper will destroy our medical system; I will reply.

How will Harper destroy our already failing health care system? Provide facts and logical points as opposed to your emotional points!!!

When you approve of Harper going to Bush; hat in hand, apologizing for Canada not joining the Iraq invasion;

He can apologize if he wants, he is Canadian with his own views and the same rights that allow you and me to criticize a govt. actions.

When Harper makes libelous remarks such as the Liberals and NDP being in support of child porn; I will remind you that we do not need a Prime Minister who cannot THINK before he speaks.

I agree the remarks made by the party, not personally by Mr. Harper were silly and were quickly quickly retracted. I will remind you to see the above point on Martin and child porn and how his actions do not mesh with his words.

Canada has been bilingual from the start; to suggest that being changed will only create more tensions and divisions in Canada.

Canada is bilingual and is in no way threatened. Again provide facts and logical points as to the threat.

My posts are nowhere near as long as your fellow Harperite buddies posts nor as frequent.

Yes thats quite right, but let me also add a few points. Your posts are no where near as relevant to the topic at hand, as my fellow Harperite buddies posts are. Your posts never address the questions asked of you, like my fellow Harperite buddies do. You rant, rather than provide logical, reasonable and well thought out posts like my fellow Harperite buddies do.

[caesar]

Sully, but I thought you supported Harper????? The one who now claims to have supported Chretien keeping us out of Iraq???????

You have no valid proof of Martin having done anything crooked; If you have proof or evidence; insist he be charged.

Harper hasn't had the chance to dip into anything YET

[Michael Hardner]

Doctors run a buisness they do not have jobs with salaries in the US or Canada. Would you ever open a buisness risk youre capital if I told you there was no gurantee you would make 150k but the most you could ever make was 150K. Why invest time and money into something that is capped I could potentially make more money collecting cans. If I showed up at CIBC tomorrow and asked for a 500K loan to setup this kind of buisness they would say get bent. This argument is all about potential would you go to work and work hard if you were going to get the same no matter what.

It all depends on how much you invest to get that $150K. A few years of hard work ? Sure, that's worth it. It's not like you can get into medical schools with Cs is it ?

And who wouldn't invest $500K to get back $150K per year ? That's 30% return per annum !

I go to work and work hard. There's no raise in my immediate future. The cab drivers and waitresses I know are the same.

I don't know that underpaid doctors should be such a priority for our government. Wages are going down everywhere.

[August1991]

I left Canada almost entierly because I wanted to run my buisness my way and if it worked be rewarded for it. In Canada this is very difficult as the government tells you how you are going to do things and what you are going to get paid. Then of course Alberta although a wonderful place has shit weather.

Noel, I'm no nationalist, but don't sell Canada short. If you do, you'll lose on your investment. On Canada, all things considered, I go long.

The best thing canada could do to help keep healthcare professionals I feel is to alow some privatization of non-essential services and add co-pays.

I basically disagree. I'd go much further.

Health care in Canada is not free and Canadians need to understand that.

We do.

Overall the Canadian system is better for society than the US system but people do not become doctors only to benifit society.

Do you know why the Canadian system is better for society? Overall, all things considered, we get better health care at lower cost than Americans do. They spend about 13% of bigger GDP than our 9% of lower GDP for... what? Why?

Clinton, smart guy, was on to this. America works best when it is not ideological. Go figure, or at least explain.

[Sully]

Caesar you are missing the point. Martin is saying one thing and doing another. Since he has become PM, every issue is a priority. He is trying to be all things to all people and this is the guy you want in there. Read between the lines what this says of his character and what it means about his future promises. Words mean very little when you do not follow through.

Being conservative is more than being a Harper supporter, even tho he is who I want to be PM. If somehow else was the party leader they would have more support too.

Hahaha you say Harper has not had the chance to be corrupt, yet Martin has shown you he lies and you still support him, please tell me how that makes sense. Either Martin knew about the scandal or was incompetent at his job, if large sums of money can disappear under his watch. Hey I am not trying to convince you to change sides and support Harper, its just find some real ground to stand on when you defend the actions of PM PM. Oh ya you cannot, you can only launch attacks at Harper, sorry I forgot.

[caesar]

Argus; Seniors drugs are NOT paid by the government here in BC. My husband must pay the first 1100 then 25% of the next 600 before the government starts paying. Last year they started this new program in either April or May; they only had 6 months to meet this deductible before it was restarted in January. We pay higher premiums in BC than Alberta.

Basic Health Care should and need not be privatized.Doctors must stop over prescribing. People must stop running to the doctor with every little twinge and sneeze. There is needless inefficiency in medical care that should be addressed.

A Family doctor can no longer order a MRI; you must go to a specialist who cannot do anything until this MRI is done. Why is the government wasting patients and specialist time just to order a MRI. It is stupid government regulations.

The family doctors orders physiotherapy which we must pay ourselves 3 to 4 hundred a month; without a proper diagnosis. Meanwhile a MP gets diagnosed and treated for leukenia in days; while others wait month for diagnosis.

[Michael Hardner]

Either Martin knew about the scandal or was incompetent at his job, if large sums of money can disappear under his watch. Hey I am not trying to convince you to change sides and support Harper, its just find some real ground to stand on when you defend the actions of PM PM.

I think he probably looked the other way. But he wasn't the boss. He only had so much power. Chretien had the final say.

As he said in the debate, he could have swept it all under the rug. Chretien would have.

The question is would Harper be a better PM than Martin ? Does he have the experience to lead a nation, let alone to introduce a large package of radical reform on many levels ?

This is a country, we're talking about. Wasting a billion dollars is stupid, no doubt, but it's less than 1% of the budget. I'd rather see 1% of my tax dollars get wasted than have an unproven, untested individual the power to embark on radical change that might or might not work.

[caesar]

Where are doctors being capped at 150 thousand a year. I read that our doctors in BC got a 23% raise which averaged 50 thousand dollars a year. A good percentage of them have not even repaid their student loans.

Why do we no longer get a run down of our visits; catch those doctors who over bill. Let people see how much they are costing the system.

Seniors may need more prescription; if they can afford to pay for them but I still would like to see a breakdown of ages and how often each visits the doctors per year.

[takeanumber]

As he said in the debate, he could have swept it all under the rug. Chretien would have

He's right.

Martin is not Chretien.

But I still got a dirty taste in my mouth from my ample student debt, contributed to by Martin.

I benefited from the Millenium Scholarships, which was given out by Chretien, not Martin.

So, what has Martin done for me lately?

Meh. Waffles.

But I don't like Waffles much, unless they're those fluffy Dempster's Waffles. Hmmmmm. With real maple syrup.

But those have substance.

Martin doesn't.

So I'm screwed. I don't wanna vote on Monday, but I gotta.

So let's review, in my opinion:

Liberals: Liars. Pseudo-pro-human rights.

Cons: Liars. Anti-basic-human-rights, anti-social-mobility.

NDP: Union Liars. Policies will drive up the cost of living, drive down employment, bankrupt Canada. Bunch of kooks.

Bloc: No matter what, somebody is gonna be sucking Duceppe's Yule Log.

Greens: Looking better, but why I don't just compost my ballot? It would have greater value as fertilizer than one cast for them.

[Reverend Blair]

Paul Martin was on a CBC Town Hall last night. He stated unequivocally that he will not seek to form the government if he gets fewer seats than Harper. He could do so, but won't.

Assuming he means what he says (he also tried to tell us the missile defense would not lead to the weaponisation of space) it shows him to be a wiley old fella.

If he gets more seats than Harper(the polls are pointing that way, slightly) he gets the government, likely with support from the NDP. If he manages that right he can parlay it into a majority next time.

If he gets fewer seats, Harper has to form a minority government. He will not have the support of the NDP or, most likely, the Bloq. His government will fall quickly, possible even more quickly than Clark's.

Canadians will feel that the Liberals have been taught a lesson, Harper will have been shown to be unfit to govern, and we'll go back to the old ways.

No matter what happens or who you support/vote for it's time for proportional representation. The old ways don't work anymore and our two leading parties lack leadership.

[Michael Hardner]

If he gets fewer seats, Harper has to form a minority government. He will not have the support of the NDP or, most likely, the Bloq. His government will fall quickly, possible even more quickly than Clark's.

Canadians will feel that the Liberals have been taught a lesson, Harper will have been shown to be unfit to govern, and we'll go back to the old ways.

No matter what happens or who you support/vote for it's time for proportional representation. The old ways don't work anymore and our two leading parties lack leadership.

Ah.... now I get it. Finally some strategy from the Liberal camp.

As for PR, the NDP touts it as a fairer system and so forth, but of course it benefits them. I don't think PR will help much, except that it will prevent the NDP from losing official party status now and then.

[noelandmero]

Do you know why the Canadian system is better for society? Overall, all things considered, we get better health care at lower cost than Americans do. They spend about 13% of bigger GDP than our 9% of lower GDP for... what? Why?

Clinton, smart guy, was on to this. America works best when it is not ideological. Go figure, or at least explain.

Canadas system is better for society because of three reasons one doctors making health care decisions not insurance companies, two healthcar costs can be controled as you stated and three the free market can not be totally applied to the medical field. Eg if you are having a an MI how much is it worth to you at that time for me to save youre life well if I told you I had to have youre house, youre wife and youre first born you would probably agree. not exactly fair.

Noel, I'm no nationalist, but don't sell Canada short. If you do, you'll lose on your investment. On Canada, all things considered, I go long.

I am not selling Canada short just being realistic people who I graduated with and live in Canada and run similar buisness make no where near the money I do in the US.

But I agree go long on Canada hopefully some one like Harper gets in eventually and steers the country slightly to the right and makes it the best country in the world to live in.

[caesar]

noelandmero. With your poor grammar you best stay where you are and carry on the type of work that you are doing. Have you ever heard of a sentence?

[playfullfellow]

noelandmero. With your poor grammar you best stay where you are and carry on the type of work that you are doing. Have you ever heard of a sentence?

Give the guy a break, he is a doctor, have you ever seen the way they fill out a prescription form? Sorry noel, just lightening the humour a bit. I agree with a lot of your points and also know all about moving from one country to another at a chance of a better life.

Now back to business, if there was to be a two tier system in Canada, what sorts of services do you see being most beneficial as a privatized company? I feel that the essential services emergency room services, life saving techniques, post surgery treatments should stay as the public type system. I feel that things like MRI's and other sorts of testing should be private systems, if people can afford to pay, why shouldn't they get service right away? This could help off-set the cost to the public system. User fees for people over a certain income level shouldn't be a problem either.

[Reverend Blair]

As for PR, the NDP touts it as a fairer system and so forth, but of course it benefits them. I don't think PR will help much, except that it will prevent the NDP from losing official party status now and then.

PR has worked fairly well in many European countries, Michael. It forces the parties to work together and try to find solutions instead of playing silly games. It also tends to bring more people out to vote because they feel their vote matters. Even if they are voting for a small party that will not elect more than one or two members, those members will have some sort of a voice.

The NDP are not the only party championing it. The Alliance was behind it before they thought they had a shot at winning an election. The Greens support it too and they could well grow in size over the next few years if their European track record is any indication.

That's all a matter for a different thread though. This one is about Harper vs.Martin. I don't quite get the good and evil part because they are both evil, but I didn't start the thread.

Ah.... now I get it. Finally some strategy from the Liberal camp.

That's my take on it, the first thing I thought of when Martin said that he wouldn't seek government unless he won more seats than Harper was, "He wins either way." The next thing I thought was, "He's likely lying."

[Michael Hardner]

PR has worked fairly well in many European countries, Michael. It forces the parties to work together and try to find solutions instead of playing silly games. It also tends to bring more people out to vote because they feel their vote matters. Even if they are voting for a small party that will not elect more than one or two members, those members will have some sort of a voice.

What's to work or not to work ? In the end, it helps the minority problems that's all.

As an aside I find it funny when people use the "it works in Europe" rationale. The Alliance used it in 2000 when they were pushing for referrenda - "It works in Switzerland !".

[caesar]

Not so sure I believe in proportional representation. It really only makes us fund more fringe parties on taxpayers money. Any changes to government costs taxpayers money that can be used better elsewhere. Health Care and education. Education needs help if some of the grammar and spelling I have seen on these sites is really from Canadian educated adults. I can tell the difference between typing errors and spelling and grammar mistakes.