lukin Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Gehenna definitely sounds like the more interesting place to be - and it sounds there'll be more company. I recall Pat Robertson or someone describing Heaven as being like Sunday School that goes on forever and ever and ever. I don't know about anyone else but that sounds about as hellish an existence as any I've ever heard or read about. The thought of even 15 minutes of that gives me the screaming meemies. Eyeball, the New Earth will be nothing like what you have described...nothing. Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Gehenna definitely sounds like the more interesting place to be - and it sounds there'll be more company. I recall Pat Robertson or someone describing Heaven as being like Sunday School that goes on forever and ever and ever. I don't know about anyone else but that sounds about as hellish an existence as any I've ever heard or read about. The thought of even 15 minutes of that gives me the screaming meemies. Gehenna will make Auschwitz look like Sunday school... If you think a NAZI death camp is going to be slap happy times,then go for it! By the way,I was never a huge fan of Sunday school either... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Sir Bandelot Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 I recall Pat Robertson or someone describing Heaven as being like Sunday School that goes on forever and ever and ever. I don't know about anyone else but that sounds about as hellish an existence as any I've ever heard or read about. Sounds great to me. How many virgins are they offering? Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) Jack, you are a very knowledgeable Christian. I know this is a vague question, but how are Christians properly supposed to relate to the Old Testament? Well,I'm no theologian,but The most impotant thing about the Old Testament is the giving of the Law in Exodus.That is the basis for all biblical morality and everything in that vein is derived from it. The next thing I would say is that alot of the things we read in the Book of Revelation were forshadowed in many of the books of the Old Testament.For example,the Book of Daniel tells about the coming world empires through Nebuchadnezzar's dream.It looks forward in Daniel and backwards in Revelation.The Book of Isaiah is equally helpful in End Time Prophecy.In fact it foreshadows Christ's crucifixion... There are others... It is also instructive to see how God can be an angry and vengeful God,but tied in with the New Testament,shows us that he is also the loving and compassionate God,who allowed Himself to take an earthly form to better understand the human condition.And,in fact,die a horrible earthly death to save us from the forces of darkness and ourselves... Edited February 10, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Sounds great to me. How many virgins are they offering? Not many.. Unless you include yourself... Pink Torpedo time for all eternity!!! Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
lukin Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Well,I'm no theologian,but The most impotant thing about the Old Testament is the giving of the Law in Exodus.That is the basis for all biblical morality and everything in that vein is derived from it. The next thing I would say is that alot of the things we read in the Book of Revelation were forshadowed in many of the books of the Old Testament.For example,the Book of Daniel tells about the coming world empires through Nebuchadnezzar's dream.It looks forward in Daniel and backwards in Revelation.The Book of Isaiah is equally helpful in End Time Prophecy.In fact it foreshadows Christ's crucifixion... There are others... It is also instructive to see how God can be an angry and vengeful God,but tied in with the New Testament,shows us that he is also the loving and compassionate God,who allowed Himself to take an earthly form to better understand the human condition.And,in fact,die a horrible earthly death to save us from the forces of darkness and ourselves... Jack, are there other books that you recommend, besides the Bible, that would help me understand? For instance, do you believe Bill Wiese really did spend 23 Minutes in hell? Does Randy Alcorn paint an accurate picture of heaven and the New Earth? Are Lee Strobel's books worth reading? Quote
Bonam Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Gehenna will make Auschwitz look like Sunday school... If you think a NAZI death camp is going to be slap happy times,then go for it! By the way,I was never a huge fan of Sunday school either... A death camp? You can't die if you're already dead and supposed to exist there forever. Quote
Bonam Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 It is also instructive to see how God can be an angry and vengeful God,but tied in with the New Testament,shows us that he is also the loving and compassionate God,who allowed Himself to take an earthly form to better understand the human condition. Being all powerful, should god not simply have been able to know what he wanted to know and understand what he wanted to understand of the human condition automatically, without having to go through all that trouble? Quote
Bonam Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Jack, are there other books that you recommend, besides the Bible, that would help me understand? The Silmarillion explains the nature of evil from a theological standpoint pretty well. I would highly recommend it. Quote
betsy Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) Well,I'm no theologian,but The most impotant thing about the Old Testament is the giving of the Law in Exodus.That is the basis for all biblical morality and everything in that vein is derived from it. The next thing I would say is that alot of the things we read in the Book of Revelation were forshadowed in many of the books of the Old Testament.For example,the Book of Daniel tells about the coming world empires through Nebuchadnezzar's dream.It looks forward in Daniel and backwards in Revelation.The Book of Isaiah is equally helpful in End Time Prophecy.In fact it foreshadows Christ's crucifixion... There are others... It is also instructive to see how God can be an angry and vengeful God,but tied in with the New Testament,shows us that he is also the loving and compassionate God,who allowed Himself to take an earthly form to better understand the human condition.And,in fact,die a horrible earthly death to save us from the forces of darkness and ourselves... And Jesus said in the New testament that He (Jesus) did not come to replace or erase laws of the Old Testament. He'd come to emphasize them....(not verbatim.) Actually, Jesus did expand on the Laws or the Commandments of God. Edited February 10, 2011 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 I am not much interested in what labels media gives to pedophiles. Okay. I guess a better question would be.....do atheists in this modern world use the word "evil" to describe something abhorrent? Quote
betsy Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) for many many years I have been on a personal intellectual quest to understand and perhaps even acquire "faith". I am no closer to acquistion but know a lot more about the objects and sources of the abrahamic faiths. I would agree that the bible isn't for me, but knowledge of it is imperative in attempting to understand the actions, motivations, morals and political beliefs of the religious and their organizations. Maybe there is some merit to the notion of a God gene in which case, I can categorically state I don't have it. I was born and raised a Catholic but never really took religion seriously. I strayed away actually. At a later stage in life, I felt this void deep inside. Something was terribly missing and I knew I had trouble with my faith. I stumbled on to Pastor Charles Price (Living Truth Ministry) while he was talking about Abraham: The Rocky Road to Faith. The way he read and explained passages from the Bible seemed so easy and simple that I began reading the Bible. If I want to fear, love and obey my Lord, I have to know what He wants. I don't want to be misled. By that I mean by preachers or religion who inject their own rules and man-made laws and rituals to the doctrine. I find Pastor Price to be credible, and stays true to the Word of God. Maybe because I was born and raised a Christian that's why somehow faith is already in me...the spark already there, and it just needed some working on. I don't know about atheists, especially if you've been an atheist all your life. The next day after I wrote this reply, a man was being interviewed in a Christian radio station. I don't know who he is, or what he do (I think he might be a writer of Christian books)....but he said something that made me think of you. He grew up in an atheist family. When he was young (he didn't say how young), he found Billy Graham on tv. He said he accepted Christ in that living room, and became a convert. He kept this quiet from his family because they were very hostile to religion. He's married now to a Christian wife. He said the longing he'd had all these years was finally filled by Christ. He used the word "longing." Edited February 10, 2011 by betsy Quote
lukin Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 The next day after I wrote this reply, a man was being interviewed in a Christian radio station. I don't know who he is, or what he do (I think he might be a writer of Christian books)....but he said something that made me think of you. He grew up in an atheist family. When he was young (he didn't say how young), he found Billy Graham on tv. He said he accepted Christ in that living room, and became a convert. He kept this quiet from his family because they were very hostile to religion. He's married now to a Christian wife. He said the longing he'd had all these years was finally filled by Christ. He used the word "longing." Betsy,have you heard of Lee Strobel, Bill Wiese, and Randy Alcorn? I read Wiese's book titled "Hell". He claims he had a vision that he was sent to hell for 23 minutes. The book is very scary, but I wonder if it really happened. Betsy, I am trying very hard to understand the word of the Lord. However, if I buy a book, I am skeptical because I don't know if the author is a true Christian, or is someone who is trying to make a buck. I am currently reading 'Heaven" by Randy Alcorn. He goes to great lengths to describe what heaven and the New Earth will be like by using scripture. It is a good buck. I was thinking of buying Lee Strobel's books, but I'd like to know if they are worthwhile. Do you have any opinion on these? Quote
pinko Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) Don't get me wrong. I believe you when you say you've abandoned Christianity. I'm just pointing out that the usage of the term "evil" that you'd associated with an abhorrent crime clearly shows relevance of Christianity even now in 2011. You also seem to feel so strongly about it given the way you'd made a point of begging to disagree with the other poster. If I am mistaken, can you explain why you'd chosen that word. There are a variety of words (http://thesaurus.com/browse/evil) that could be used. The connection made to the bible is purely coincidental to the issue at hand. Consider the following analysis. Evil as a personality disorder Illness and disease could be defined as any defect in the structure of our bodies or our personalities that prevents us from fulfilling our potential as human beings. A good definition of such potential can be found in Abraham Maslow's description of "self-actualized" persons in his book, Motivation and Personality. He believes that the phenomenon of evil can and should be subjected to scientific scrutiny. Of course, if evil an illness, it is not only a disease; it is the ultimate disease. The existing broad psychiatric category of "personality disorders" currently covers those psychiatric conditions in which the denial of personal responsibility is the prominent feature. By virtue of their unwillingness to tolerate the sense of personal sin and the denial of their imperfection, the evil easily fit into this broad diagnostic category. There is even within this class a subcategory entitled "narcissistic personality disorder." It might be quite appropriate to classify evil people as constituting a specific variant of the narcissistic personality disorder. Many of the evil people seen by psychiatrists are diagnosed as having "ambulatory schizophrenia." And those who are personally exposed to those who have been designated as "ambulatory schizophrenics" most often define them as evil people. Peck believed that the time is right for psychiatry to recognize a distinct new type of personality disorder to encompass those which he defined as evil. http://samredman.com/peopleofthelie/ Edited February 10, 2011 by pinko Quote
pinko Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) Okay. I guess a better question would be.....do atheists in this modern world use the word "evil" to describe something abhorrent? I don't speak for all atheists but I think I recognize evil when I see it. Are you suggesting this term (evil) is solely within the purview of Christianity? Here is another excerpt from the article I refereneced earlier. Familial evil -- the genesis of narcissism Evil seems to run in families. But the familial pattern, if accurate, does nothing to resolve the old "nature versus nurture" controversy. Does evil run in families because it is genetic and inherited? Or because it is learned by the child in imitation of its parents: Or even as a defense against its parents? And how are we to explain the fact that many of the children of evil parents, although usually scarred, are not evil? We do not know, and we will not know until an enormous amount of painstaking scientific work has been accomplished. Nonetheless, a leading theory of the genesis of pathological narcissism is that it is a defensive phenomenon. Since almost all young children demonstrate a formidable array of narcissistic characteristics, it is assumed that narcissism is something we generally "grow out of" in the course of normal development, through a stable childhood, under the care of loving and understanding parents. If the parents are cruel and unloving, however, or the childhood otherwise traumatic (such as the enduring the experiences of sexual abuse), it is believed that the infantile narcissism will be preserved as a kind of psychological fortress to protect the child against the vicissitudes of its intolerable life. This theory might well apply to the genesis of human evil. The builders of the medieval cathedrals placed upon their buttresses the figures of gargoyles -- themselves symbols of evil -- in order to ward off the spirits of greater evil. Thus children may become evil in order to defend themselves against the onslaught of parents who are evil. It is possible, therefore, to think of human evil -- or some of it -- as a kind of psychological gargoylism. http://samredman.com/peopleofthelie/ Edited February 10, 2011 by pinko Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 The next day after I wrote this reply, a man was being interviewed in a Christian radio station. I don't know who he is, or what he do (I think he might be a writer of Christian books)....but he said something that made me think of you. He grew up in an atheist family. When he was young (he didn't say how young), he found Billy Graham on tv. He said he accepted Christ in that living room, and became a convert. He kept this quiet from his family because they were very hostile to religion. He's married now to a Christian wife. He said the longing he'd had all these years was finally filled by Christ. He used the word "longing." Betsy, one can't deny that many people have a deep longing for some answers. What has that got to do with how true some of those answers are? You may have seen where I posted this before: "Show them a light and they'll follow it anywhere!"---Firesign Theater No matter how desperately you want to see that light doesn't mean it may not be a false one. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
The_Squid Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 And Jesus said in the New testament that He (Jesus) did not come to replace or erase laws of the Old Testament. He'd come to emphasize them....(not verbatim.) Actually, Jesus did expand on the Laws or the Commandments of God. So the Old Testament still stands? I take it you avoid shellfish then? You would encourage the stoning of adulterers?? The Year of Living Biblically Quote
wyly Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 So the Old Testament still stands? I take it you avoid shellfish then? You would encourage the stoning of adulterers?? The Year of Living Biblically old testament must stand according to this quote...rape, stoning, genocide, infantcide, slavery everything is a go... Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true. Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away - not until the end of all things. So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches other to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven. -Matthew 5:17-20 GNB Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
GostHacked Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Basic morals... whatever that means... sure. Well it's even basic morals atheists like as well. Don't kill people, don't steal, don't be an ass, ect ect ..... those are basic tenants no matter what faith people follow, or if they follow a religion at all. Quote
wyly Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Well it's even basic morals atheists like as well. Don't kill people, don't steal, don't be an ass, ect ect ..... those are basic tenants no matter what faith people follow, or if they follow a religion at all. correct... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Oleg Bach Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Originally the mythical Satan character was God's most beautiful angel - He was a musical entity - prince of the air because he used air to send vibrations to glorify...creation....In other words he needs an atmosphere to function in...He is an earthling as for power...Later - he became the "accuser" - Kind of like a devine crown attorney..His job was to point out those that were going against devine and natural law...and then he would attempt to convict the accused...Later - he became after getting overly ambitious..the SLANDERER...He began to lie in order to get points from convictions ...He in other words began to persecute the innocent in a search for MORE power and domination - So he was now offically an angel gone bad. This entity does still exist - but it is contained in human belief..It is belief that keeps this thing alive and functioning in on going mischief. Those that use the term "evil genius" are in error - no evil thing or persons has lived a life that ended well...so my premise is that evil and stupidity are the same thing...The Satan figure made a blunder - but I believe that God the all mighty has forgiven this old angel a long time ago - but humanity keep him alive and functioning as an excuse and justification for bad behaviour -------"the devil made me do it" - which is a lie - YOU did it. Quote
pinko Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 "-------"the devil made me do it" - So said Flip Wilson. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 "-------"the devil made me do it" - So said Flip Wilson. Flip Wilson was a classic liar. Humanity keep the devil myth alive so they can do great mischief and tell the poor superstitious natives that..the devil came and took their resourses..when in truth...some conspiring humans did it. People fail to realize there is no war between good and evil - between God and his meger creation Satan..that would be like a strong father waging war with an infant son...the father could easily stomp on the devilish child....It's a strange game - this good verses evil...people have free will - and we really don't need evil...BUT some ungrateful bastards who have been given a heaven on earth - get bored and want to wage war for fun...all war is recreational and the price is simply not worth the thrill of the kill. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Flip Wilson was a classic liar. Humanity keep the devil myth alive so they can do great mischief and tell the poor superstitious natives that..the devil came and took their resourses..when in truth...some conspiring humans did it. People fail to realize there is no war between good and evil - between God and his meger creation Satan..that would be like a strong father waging war with an infant son...the father could easily stomp on the devilish child....It's a strange game - this good verses evil...people have free will - and we really don't need evil...BUT some ungrateful bastards who have been given a heaven on earth - get bored and want to wage war for fun...all war is recreational and the price is simply not worth the thrill of the kill. While I am at it there is a great line in scripture....actually two lines..that I find enlightening - First..."Thee are violent MEN that try to take heaven by force" - What - there are men in heaven? This leads me to believe that earth is a heaven and bastards attempt to control it and it's enhabitants...Secondly..."Young men you are strong because you have mastered evil" - It does not mean that you are to practice evil - It means you are to understand it fully - and have full control over it and do not let fear of it control you - It is your duty to have power and mastery over evil...don't give it any respect. Quote
pinko Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 "Flip Wilson was a classic liar" I think you are confused. Flip Wilson was a comedian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_Wilson Quote
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