The Nature of Evil

[Bonam]

So, contrary to what you implied in previous post, it is safe to conclude then that for you, life has no value?

I was talking about the historical origins of the assertion that a fetus is a person, so not sure where you got that from.

It must be tough to be in a position where in.... damn if you do, damn if you don't.

So, we're back to psychoanalysis - you are similar to a psychopath?

Back to throwing insults? I guess that must be a Christian teaching or something. Whosoever doth disagree with thou in a debate, thou shalt insulteth.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Bonam

[Jonsa]

a belief is having absurd blind faith...atheists don't have belief we have knowledge, nothing equals zero you cannot believe in something that doesn't exist... a difficult if not impossible concept for a deist to comprehend...

No, belief is not having absurd blind faith.

Definition of BELIEF

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Please note definition #3

[Jonsa]

Which nation had states or provinces with legal access to abortion first? 1988 is way too late in the game. Morgantaler has already been discussed here numerous times.

That would be Canada - decriminalized in 1969 then struck down 1988 and since then we've had no abortion laws.

You are not your son. You are not as well informed as you may think. Go ask your son why some Canadians have to get abortions in the United States.

that isn't happening now, particularly since our healthcare pays for it.

[bush_cheney2004]

That would be Canada - decriminalized in 1969 then struck down 1988 and since then we've had no abortion laws.

Sorry...too late....Colorado legalized abortion for some cases in 1967. Many others followed suit. Roe v. Wade was in 1972...not 1988.

that isn't happening now, particularly since our healthcare pays for it.

Nope...you cannot all abortion services in all provinces, and in Quebec, third term abortions not for the health of the mother are sent to the USA because doctors will not perform them.

[WIP]

Then your understanding on the issue is very limited...abortion is flat out illegal or restricted in many other nations. Abortion law in Canada actually lagged behind the United States, and even to this day, Canadians seek abortion services in the US for a variety of reasons and restrictions back home.

How's that for "extreme"?

And the countries that live out this anti-abortion, anti-birth control bullshit are paying for it now....Egypt for example! Right wing religious nuts care nothing about life; their goal is to bring back patriarchy and take away reproductive freedom from women...which proves that rightwing fundamentalist women are the biggest fools of all....since they're like freed prisoners trying to put their chains and ankle bracelets back on!

[bush_cheney2004]

...which proves that rightwing fundamentalist women are the biggest fools of all....since they're like freed prisoners trying to put their chains and ankle bracelets back on!

You mean they have the nerve to actually be mothers and not kill their babies? How shocking!

[bloodyminded]

If you think life has some value, then you're not an atheist.

Well, to be fair, I can finally understand your antipathy towards atheists.

Fortunately, you're wrong about us.

[WIP]

You mean they have the nerve to actually be mothers and not kill their babies? How shocking!

Why is this important to you? You're the one who advocates the overfed and the underfed fight to the death for dwindling food supplies in poor countries. Why should you care whether or not women there have abortions?

[bloodyminded]

So, contrary to what you implied in previous post, it is safe to conclude then that for you, life has no value?

Bonam never said life has no value. He disagrees with you on where this value lays.

It must be tough to be in a position where in.... damn if you do, damn if you don't.

So, we're back to psychoanalysis - you are similar to a psychopath?

??

You're asking Bonam if he is a psychopath?

Let me ask you: is it a Christian "value" to attempt to drive people away from your message? To what end?

Same with your "baby-killers" theme. PErhaps you enjoy the fight itself more than wish for a change; else you'd want to change people's minds about abortion.

Calling pro-choicers "baby-killers" is a guaranteed method for driving them away. So you don't wish to change their minds about abortion?

[bloodyminded]

Why is this important to you? You're the one who advocates the overfed and the underfed fight to the death for dwindling food supplies in poor countries. Why should you care whether or not women there have abortions?

He also likes to say that "morality" has no place in debates.

Unless it's abortion, American patriotism, Reagan, or "the troops." Then the tantrums begin.

[Jonsa]

Sorry...too late....Colorado legalized abortion for some cases in 1967. Many others followed suit. Roe v. Wade was in 1972...not 1988.

Good for colo. I

Not sure about the 1988 ref to rvw. Morgentaler case got the 69 law struck down.

Nope...you cannot all abortion services in all provinces, and in Quebec, third term abortions not for the health of the mother are sent to the USA because doctors will not perform them.

Really? do you have a reference for this? Of course the number of late term abortions in Quebec would be miniscule, but why wouldn't they send them to Ontario? It'd be way way cheaper.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Jonsa

[WIP]

He also likes to say that "morality" has no place in debates.

Unless it's abortion, American patriotism, Reagan, or "the troops." Then the tantrums begin.

This is how you can be sure that the crusade against abortion has nothing to do with morality or concern for life. Best unattributed quote is "their concern for life ends when it comes out of the womb."

[pinko]

Which nation had states or provinces with legal access to abortion first? 1988 is way too late in the game. Morgantaler has already been discussed here numerous times.

You are not your son. You are not as well informed as you may think. Go ask your son why some Canadians have to get abortions in the United States.

Yes...I am from the United States.

With respect to your quiz I will allow you to provide the answer to your first question. I will expect you to provide proof for your alegations.

I have no need to ask my son about the abortions you infer are done in the USA. By the way would you provide the specifics for these abortions conducted in the USA on Canadian citizens.

Do you have any statitstics? If so produce them.

In most urban centres abortion services are readily available at hospitals and clinics.

Finally it may very well be American citizens visit Canada as result of retrictions in your country. The USSC, with its overabundance of Catholic Republican justices, has been eroding Roe v Wade for some time now.

Edited February 18, 2011 by pinko

[cybercoma]

I don't need to back that up.

Surprise!

[cybercoma]

No, belief is not having absurd blind faith.

Definition of BELIEF

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Please note definition #3

As opposed to #1 which has nothing to do with the examination of evidence at all and is the type of belief that religious zealots like betsy have.

[bush_cheney2004]

As opposed to #1 which has nothing to do with the examination of evidence at all and is the type of belief that religious zealots like betsy have.

Quite to the contrary, FAITH is the expressed belief in such things absent any evidence. It is the foundation for many religious belief systems, not just "zealots".

[bush_cheney2004]

With respect to your quiz I will allow you to provide the answer to your first question. I will expect you to provide proof for your alegations.

Proof is readily available in State of Colorado statutes. America has provided you with the tools to confirm this yourself (Internet, Browser, and Google!)

I have no need to ask my son about the abortions you infer are done in the USA. By the way would you provide the specifics for these abortions conducted in the USA on Canadian citizens.

Do you have any statitstics? If so produce them.

We have already covered this topic many times before, but since you are a newbie:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Abortion_in_Canada#Obstacles_to_access

Not only do several regions not have the facilities and staff to conduct abortions, but some doctors refuse to do certain procedures unless the life of the mother is at risk.

In most urban centres abortion services are readily available at hospitals and clinics.

Why not all? Why are there such barriers to abortion on demand?

Finally it may very well be American citizens visit Canada as result of retrictions in your country. The USSC, with its overabundance of Catholic Republican justices, has been eroding Roe v Wade for some time now.

Then, playing your game, prove it.

[pinko]

Proof is readily available in State of Colorado statutes. America has provided you with the tools to confirm this yourself (Internet, Browser, and Google!)

We have already covered this topic many times before, but since you are a newbie:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Abortion_in_Canada#Obstacles_to_access

Not only do several regions not have the facilities and staff to conduct abortions, but some doctors refuse to do certain procedures unless the life of the mother is at risk.

Why not all? Why are there such barriers to abortion on demand?

Then, playing your game, prove it.

It is not a game, chump. If I feel the need to use the search engines referred to I will.

Nothing in your link of any import.

You need to refine your reading and comprehension skills.

Edited February 18, 2011 by pinko

[bush_cheney2004]

It is not a game, chump. If I feel the need to use the search engines referred to I will.

Nothing in your link of any import.

You need to refine your reading and comprehension skills.

So what's your problem, chump? Do you always slink away when confronted by information that exposes your position as false or unfounded? My reading skills are fine....thank you very much.

[pinko]

So what's your problem, chump? Do you always slink away when confronted by information that exposes your position as false or unfounded? My reading skills are fine....thank you very much.

Don't give up your day job. Your stupidity shines through.

[betsy]

As I recall Betsy indicated she was brought up as a Catholic and has embarked on a journey of immersion in biblical text. When one reads her views on abortion it is not difficult to conclude that the hatred portrayed in her commentary places her in the camp of the extremist. In this world a woman's right to choose is ignored and the providers of healthcare are demonized.

Besty is just another warped Catholic and the evidence of that is in her posts.

And as I recall Pinko was a Unitarian who later became a Catholic. Why he ended up an atheist remains a very intriguing mystery...there-in lies the answer I bet for his relentless ad hominem posts without anything to add to the discussion. Reminds me of someone who used to chain-smoke, then becomes the most judgemental enemy of the cigarette. Nothing can be more zealous than that!

So I don't really take him seriously. He proved himself to be another sample of the kind of atheists I was referring to in God vs Science.

And as I recall Pinko became quite emotional about pedophiles (not that I blame him for that), and insisted on calling them "evil." If he considers pedophiles evil, one would think that he would consider the pro-choice advocates to be the very devil incarnate. Well, not only didn't he just keep his opinion to himself, instead he comes out in full throttle to support mass-baby killing! Go figure.

Edited February 19, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Anyway, all these yada-yada-yada from the pro-choice, atheist faction....deflection galore. They throw everything BUT.

So typical that everyone neatly side-stepped, or overlooked the evil being presented by the main argument:

It is necessary to de-humanize the fetus so these women need not be inconvenienced for 9 months - and can have their offsprings butchered without any guilt.

That's the main reason for this so-called Woman's autonomous right - to do what she wants with her body! The ultimate EMPOWERMENT, the right to kill.

Gee, the way you guys are so adept at this, I'm inclined to believe you're related to the ostrich!

Edited February 19, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Anyway, just something to chew on:

In the mid-to-late 19th century, during the fight for women's suffrage in the U.S., many first-wave feminists, such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton opposed abortion.[69][70] In the newspaper she operated with Susan B. Anthony, The Revolution, an anonymous contributor signing "A" wrote in 1869 about the subject, arguing that instead of merely attempting to pass a law against abortion, the root cause must also be addressed. Simply passing an anti-abortion law would, the writer stated, "be only mowing off the top of the noxious weed, while the root remains. [...] No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh! thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime."[70][71][72][73]

Around 1970, during second-wave feminism, abortion and reproductive rights were unifying issues among various women's rights groups in Canada, the United States, the Netherlands, Britain, Norway, France, Germany, and Italy.[74]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

--------------------

Edited February 19, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

The evil continues...

Since 1973, George Tiller�or "Dr. Tiller", as he likes to call himself�has performed thousands upon thousands of late-term abortions. He is renowned among the pro-choice community for his impeccable record of safety: unlike some abortionists, he has yet to kill a woman in the process of terminating a pregnancy. His apparent skill as an abortion practitioner has won him numerous awards, including the National Abortion Federation's highest honor, the Christopher Tietze Humanitarian Award.

Among pro-life advocates, he is famous for the cruelty with which he treats the unborn. No case illustrates the extent of this cruelty better than the tragedy of Baby Sarah Brown, one of his many victims. In 1993, a pregnant teenager and her parents traveled 900 miles to Tiller's office in Kansas to receive an elective late-term abortion. Tiller began the abortion by injecting a poisonous syringe through the pregnant teenager's uterus and into the upper left side of the unborn baby's face. He then instructed the teenager to return the next day for the completion of the abortion.

To everyone's dismay, the baby did not die during the intervening hours. After the teenager began to complain of serious abdominal pains, her parents rushed her to a local hospital where the baby was eventually born�alive. The delivery room staff felt that life-support would be futile, so they wrapped the baby in a bassinet without attendance. The teenager and her parents quickly left the scene.

Even without medical care, the baby remained alive. After many hours had passed, the delivery room staff decided to give her treatment. Miraculously, she managed to survive through the entire ordeal.

"Sarah", as her adoptive parents later named her, lived until the age of 5, when she succumbed to the developmental harm done to her body during the abortion. The KCl solution that had been injected into the side of her face had left her permanently blind and brain damaged.

Prior to the abortion, Sarah was a perfectly normal baby. The relevant medical records indicate that she had no disabilities or deformities. If Tiller hadn't attempted to poison her, she would be a healthy 9 year old girl with an entire life ahead of her. Instead, she is in a grave.

One would think that Tiller's experience with Sarah would be sufficient to turn his heart away from the evil of abortion. But the experience hasn't changed him in the slightest. To this day, he continues his lucrative career as a late-term practitioner.

When confronted with stories like the story of Sarah Brown, pro-choice advocates usually insist that late-term abortions only occur in extreme, life-threatening circumstances. Until recently, this claim was an easy claim to make. For the most part, objective data on late-term abortion have been hard to come by. The abortion industry consistently refuses to disclose statistical information on the topic.

In the middle of 1998, the state of Kansas instituted a mandatory reporting policy that required Tiller to submit information about the abortions that he performs. The Kansas Department of Health and Environmental Statistics has recently published this information.

The information sends a clear message: the majority of late-term abortions are purely elective. They typically involve healthy babies and healthy mothers. If you are inclined to disagree, or if you have a hard time believing that mainstream abortion practitioners would be willing to kill babies that are months from being born, then I ask that you continue reading. You will be amazed�and hopefully outraged�when you see the data for yourself.

Before evaluating the data, let me first provide some background information on Kansas Law and on other topics that are pertinent to Tiller's practices.

http://www.abortiontv.com/Methods/GeorgeTiller.htm

Edited February 19, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

PHILADELPHIA - A West Philadelphia abortion doctor today was charged with eight counts of homicide, including the death of a patient as well as several fetuses, authorities said.

District Attorney Seth Williams announced charges against Dr. Kermit P. Gosnell at a press conference this morning.

Williams, his wife and several assistants all were taken into custody earlier today and all face charges.

Williams alleged the female patient died during a botched abortion, and that the fetuses died during late-term procedures done in Gosnell's office.

Williams alleged that seven babies were born alive and then killed with scissors. The D.A. also indicated that women patients were subjected to squalid and barbaric conditions at Gosnell's Women's Medical Society, which was shut down last year.

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/2011/01/19/news/doc4d370f3ede2b5822015772.txt

According to the newly released grand jury report, Gosnell accepted abortion patients without regard to gestational age. "Gosnell catered to the women who couldn't get abortions elsewhere—because they were too pregnant," the report explains. "More and more of his patients came from out of state and were late second-trimester patients. Many of them were well beyond 24 weeks. Gosnell was known as a doctor who would perform abortions at any stage, without regard for legal limits."

This meant killing viable babies. "We were able to document seven specific incidents in which Gosnell or one of his employees severed the spine of a viable baby born alive," the grand jury concludes. One victim was killed at 26 weeks. Another was killed at 28. A third was killed at 32. Some of the dead were 12 to 18 inches long. One had been moving and breathing outside the womb for 20 minutes. The report alleges hundreds of such atrocities. One employee admitted to severing the spinal cords of 100 babies, each one beyond 24 weeks.

http://www.slate.com/id/2281812/