Crack down on illegal smokes: Hudak

charter.rights · February 7, 2011

http://www.markdalestandard.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2965204

Hudak should get a clue. In the article he complains that Ontario should work with the federal government and First Nation leaders to shut down illegal smoke shops.

The Problem: There are NO "illegal smoke shops". FN smoke shops are fully legal and protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Even the sale of tobacco products to non-natives off their traditional reserves is a legal and protected practice since all of southern Ontario constitutes "a reserve" under the Charter, as it was recognized that all land not surrendered to the Crown was "reserved for them". Southern Ontario remains the sovereign territory of Six Nations and there has never been a surrender as required under the Royal Proclamation 1763. Tobacco is a traditional native product and the trade in tobacco precedes even the Proclamation. Finally, the Supreme Court of Canad in Mitchell v. MNR established as precedent that Mohawks have a constitutionally protected right to trade with all First Nations in Canada in an east-west trade route.

So not only are smoke shops legal but the sale of tobacco to non-natives is also perfectly legal. However, I know for a fact that smoke shops do not sell to under-age smokers. Those kids that have tobacco are obtaining it in the same manner as they have always obtained it - by asking older kids to purchase the smokes for them.

So a man that engages in propaganda to sooth the button heads out there and then promotes ignoring the Charter rights of aboriginal people to do it is not suitable material for premier. Gawd if he is willing to sacrifice natives for his election, how is he ever going to look after our rights?

And so he follows Harris in aboriginal policy - get those f'n Indians out of the smoke shops. Sound really familiar.

Topaz · February 7, 2011

First, I do agree with you Hudak shouldn't be premier but since voters don't want the Libs or the NDP, that only leaves the Tories. If McGuinty had a twin brother as the leader of the Tories, who would be premier? As to the cigarettes, with all the added toxics to non native smokes, then the Feds should push either to not allow tobacco sold in Canada. That won't happen with a 9 BILLION taxes being collected and that is sad that people will die of cancer or other diseases caused by toxics in tobacco. I've heard that FN smoke are toxics-free and so if people have to smoke the FN smoke are healthier, if that is possible.

Shady · February 7, 2011

Sorry, but natives have to obey the law too. Just like the rest of us.

charter.rights · February 7, 2011

Sorry, but natives have to obey the law too. Just like the rest of us.

The law is on their side. They are constitutionally allowed to sell smokes to anyone they want. So no they do not have to obey tax law or tobacco licensing laws. That's just the way it is.

Now if we can only get the government to abide by the law.

Mr.Canada · February 8, 2011

I long for a day when the government stops being afraid of the natives and arrests them for the thugs that they are. Most of them couldn't make bail anyways so that'll keep them out of our hair for a while. I don't care if some obscure treaty from 1789 will free them or not, that doesn't stop them from getting arrested in the meantime.

Arrest them all and let them try to make bail. More then half won't be able to make bail or will have no one to either sign them out of put up the money.

Arrest them for anything that a normal Canadian would get arrested for. Keep doing it. Sooner or later they'll run out of money or judges will stop granting bail.

We need to clean up our country.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Mr.Canada

Molly · February 8, 2011

Hah! Prohibition, working as well as ever...

I'd likely support almost any party that offered to devote every dime of provincial tax collected from cigarettes to stop-smoking treatments and aids- not ads, not enforcement, not research, not punishment, not prizes or lecturers or 'no smoking' signs', but directly covering the entire cost of nicorettes and Champix and lazer treatments, herbal remedies and hypnotists and whatever the heck else anyone needs to get that monkey off their back.

Tobacco taxes are largely a special burden reserved for the poor.

Funny thing... if everyone who didn't want to be a smoker managed to quit, there wouldn't be a smoke shop in Ontario making a profit. That'd sure save anyone fussing or wondering whether any given smoke shop is operating legally or not.

And meanwhile... Conservatives stressing punishment,enforcement and blame (even when standing on very doubtful legal grounds) over actually helping people... no surprise. (That's what makes it hard to vote Conservative, even though Canadians, on the whole are a very conservative lot...)

Edited February 8, 2011 by Molly

charter.rights · February 8, 2011

We need to clean up our country.

I agree. Let's get rid of the Nazis and the religious zealots first.

When are you emigrating?

eyeball · February 8, 2011

I long for a day when the government stops being afraid of the natives and arrests them for the thugs that they are. Most of them couldn't make bail anyways so that'll keep them out of our hair for a while. I don't care if some obscure treaty from 1789 will free them or not, that doesn't stop them from getting arrested in the meantime.

Arrest them all and let them try to make bail. More then half won't be able to make bail or will have no one to either sign them out of put up the money.

Arrest them for anything that a normal Canadian would get arrested for. Keep doing it. Sooner or later they'll run out of money or judges will stop granting bail.

We need to clean up our country.

No thanks, I'd rather go the native way myself.

Wild Bill · February 8, 2011

Hah! Prohibition, working as well as ever...

Funny thing... if everyone who didn't want to be a smoker managed to quit, there wouldn't be a smoke shop in Ontario making a profit. That'd sure save anyone fussing or wondering whether any given smoke shop is operating legally or not.

I've said many times before Molly, I'm NOT a smoker. Still, back when it was allowed in bars and clubs I always sat with the smokers. I found that too many non-smokers are a preachy, cheerless lot!

If you get bored and find yourself with some free time you might try to google up a study done by two McGill med students about a decade ago about the true cost of smoking to the taxpayer. They had noticed that in the MSM they constantly saw and heard 'experts' making the claim that smokers cost more in medical costs than the taxes collected on cigarettes.

Like true scientists they were offended by the fact that this claim was NEVER substantiated! It was just dropped like the Ten Commandments on Moses' stone tablets. No one ever challenged the claim.

So they decided to make it a project! The results were quite interesting. Apparently, governments at all levels earned a net profit of several billion dollars per year on nicotine! I don't have the exact figures since I'm going by memory here.

The reason why seemed quite obvious. Smokers tend to die younger! Also the time between the symptoms of lung cancer showing up and the inevitable death (lung cancer recovery rates are sadly still extremely poor) tends to be rather short, a matter of months and not years.

Meanwhile, non-smokers tend to go on for years and years, getting knee and hip replacements and gobbling up mega-dollars worth of drugs to keep them fit and healthy. In many cases they live more than 30 years longer than a smoker who got cancer!

It doesn't matter how one feels about smoking. Math is math and money is money. That's a huge pile of money, that would have to come from some other source if nicotine was made illegal.

To further roil the waters, I can't help but wonder what the contraband cigarettes from the native reserves are doing to the equation. The OFFICIAL figure admitted by the government is that at least 50% of cigarettes smoked in Ontario are contraband!

That's ZILLIONS of tax dollars that will never be pumped into the medicare budget!

Molly · February 9, 2011

I hear you, Bill,. I hear you.

Not just cheerless, but downright dishonest, too-- that 'cost to the taxpayer' thing being exhibit A.

The more recent stuff - laws against smoking outdoors, and/or in ones own space, vehicle or workshop; laws advancing even futher into folks' lives by threatening that simple freedom in rented spaces.. just un-freaking-believeably intrusive!

Obesity is at least as costly to the public. Would folks tolerate similarly intrusive rules with respect to poor food choices? No soft-drinks in a vehicle/ doughnuts must be hidden behind a curtain/ produce ID to buy a chocolate bar/ no street meat on public streets and no greasy burgers in public places/ no microwave food in rented apartments; taxes on these things, of course, should inflate their retail value by a factor of at least 10 ...

That's a serious digression, though.

I'm in nearly categorical agreement with Charter. rights on this one: that if it's posturing (likely), then it's a race to the lowest common motive, an appeal to uninformed, thoughtless, knee-jerk prejudices which would suggest that Mr. Hudak would not be a great choice for premier; and if it's honest intention/belief/policy, then it's thoughtless knee-jerk prejudice, which ]would suggest that Mr. Hudak would be a poor choice etc.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Molly

Sir Bandelot · February 9, 2011

I'm in nearly categorical agreement with Charter. rights on this one: that if it's posturing (likely), then it's a race to the lowest common motive, an appeal to uninformed, thoughtless, knee-jerk prejudices which would suggest that Mr. Hudak would not be a great choice for premier; and if it's honest intention/belief/policy, then it's thoughtless knee-jerk prejudice, which ]would suggest that Mr. Hudak would be a poor choice etc.

Au contraire, I think that he would. He really would...

Mr.Canada · February 9, 2011

Hardly knee jerk politics Molly. This situation has been going on for years. If it is knee jerk it's the slowest knee jerk I've ever seen.

GostHacked · February 9, 2011

I long for a day when the government stops being afraid of the natives and arrests them for the thugs that they are. Most of them couldn't make bail anyways so that'll keep them out of our hair for a while. I don't care if some obscure treaty from 1789 will free them or not, that doesn't stop them from getting arrested in the meantime.

Arrest them all and let them try to make bail. More then half won't be able to make bail or will have no one to either sign them out of put up the money.

Arrest them for anything that a normal Canadian would get arrested for. Keep doing it. Sooner or later they'll run out of money or judges will stop granting bail.

We need to clean up our country.

Are you willing to pay to incarcerate the whole lot?

GostHacked · February 9, 2011

No thanks, I'd rather go the native way myself.

I've had some of those native smokes, and they taste really different. I guess that is what real tobacco tastes like, not like the chemical induced smokes you can buy.