nicky10013 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Only if we were debating prison terms..which we are not. No, we're not debating prison terms. We're debating sentences. Quote
nicky10013 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 No, really, you have. Explain it to me, then. Quote
Bob Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 No I don't believe I have. M. Dancer made an obvious point. He couldn't be clearer. Your replies illustrate you didn't understand what he was getting at. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
nicky10013 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 M. Dancer made an obvious point. He couldn't be clearer. Your replies illustrate you didn't understand what he was getting at. Yeah, he made a point that people don't volunteer for the death sentence. While that's all fine and good, how many people going through the criminal justice system want to be either imprisoned or executed, period? To say that they're not asking for life sentences is stupid because they're in no way asking for life sentences either. So please, tell me how I don't get it? Quote
Bob Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 They really have no other choice save for suicide. US prisoners cannot volunteer for state execution.....guilt and punishment phases are separate judicial proceedings. I understand that, but don't you think the actions of prisoners and their lawyers speak for themselves? I'd wager most prisoners sentenced to death do all they can to stay alive, starting from the moment they make their pleas. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
dre Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Certainly Milgaard and other wrongful convictions are red herrings given massive improvements in investigative methods over the years. Moreover, we could attach special conditions for the implementation of capital punishment ensuring its safety. Absolutely not. Our system is still FAR from perfect, and its based on how much money you have to mount a defense. Innocent people still get put away, and guilt people still go free. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
nicky10013 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 I understand that, but don't you think the actions of prisoners and their lawyers speak for themselves? I'd wager most prisoners sentenced to death do all they can to stay alive, starting from the moment they make their pleas. Yeah and they do that by pleading innocence, not by saying gee golly I did it so don't kill me. They do it to get out of prison. Quote
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 You like the idea of the the most reprehensible criminals being up for parole in 25 years (or less) after being sentenced to life imprisonment? Just because they are eligible doesn't mean they will be paroled. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Yeah and they do that by pleading innocence, not by saying gee golly I did it so don't kill me. They do it to get out of prison. So now you are claiming that everyone standing trial for murder pleads innocent? You might want to ask for a shovel... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
dre Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 You guys are spending to much time on the unimportant argument of whether or not a prisoner would choose life or death. That has no bearing on whether or not the death penalty is good public policy. Who cares what he wants? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 I understand that, but don't you think the actions of prisoners and their lawyers speak for themselves? I'd wager most prisoners sentenced to death do all they can to stay alive, starting from the moment they make their pleas. I agree that most surely do, but not all. A condemned man or woman has plenty of time to think about it. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
M.Dancer Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 They really have no other choice save for suicide. US prisoners cannot volunteer for state execution.....guilt and punishment phases are separate judicial proceedings. No but they on death row can demand that all proceedings regarding their appeals be stopped. A handful have done just that and I believe others have counter sued demanding that the appeals continue... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Bob Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Just because they are eligible doesn't mean they will be paroled. I didn't say that, did I? And you didn't answer the question... Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
nicky10013 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 So now you are claiming that everyone standing trial for murder pleads innocent? You might want to ask for a shovel... No of course not. Most do. You seem to like putting words in people's mouths rather than actually making an argument of your own. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 No but they on death row can demand that all proceedings regarding their appeals be stopped. A handful have done just that and I believe others have counter sued demanding that the appeals continue... Not much help when do-gooders like Amnesty International or Desmond Tutu are lobbying for more hearings or commuted sentences. Frankly, it is somewhat difficult to get the condemned executed on time, even in the US. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
nicky10013 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 You guys are spending to much time on the unimportant argument of whether or not a prisoner would choose life or death. That has no bearing on whether or not the death penalty is good public policy. Who cares what he wants? Pretty much exactly what I was getting at. Quote
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 I didn't say that, did I? And you didn't answer the question... Yes I think people deserve the chance to get out of prison after 25 years. Quote
dre Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Yes I think people deserve the chance to get out of prison after 25 years. I think theres some people that should never get out... but we already have special exceptions for those guys. The death penalty is a red herring and a non issue, and we would gain absolutely nothing from it. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Battletoads Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 I'm confused why people want it back. Its been shown to be expensive and a terrible deterrent in any country with a decent justice system. So someone please tell me what is the fucking point of dredging up this debate. and this isn't even addressing the possibilities innocent being convicted. Quote "You can lead a Conservative to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
M.Dancer Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 I'm confused why people want it back. Its been shown to be expensive and a terrible deterrent .... It wasn't expensive when we had it here...as far as a deterent, it is not supposed to be, it is a punishment, just because some are to callous to regard their own lives doesn't mean it should n ot be considered, and further more, as far as deterents go...show me one executed criminal who re-offended. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) It wasn't expensive when we had it here...as far as a deterent, it is not supposed to be, it is a punishment, just because some are to callous to regard their own lives doesn't mean it should n ot be considered, and further more, as far as deterents go...show me one executed criminal who re-offended. That's only part of deterrence though, the much more important part is whether it will stop others from doing it. Which it doesn't no punishment will because people either do it in the heat of the moment and don't think of the consequences or they think they've thought it through enough so they won't get caught. And of course they won't be able to re-offend in prison either so the death penalty is pointless. Edited January 27, 2011 by TrueMetis Quote
Esq Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) Canadians are very interested in torturing people socially a lot more than correcting them. They want people to submit to authority - that is the correction -and they have to engineer harm in order to create subservance. I think that is rather unfortunate that society can't be self managing on grounds of equality rather than subservience. I think people who have long sentences will just be a resource burden. Either they should earn their keep, or they should be offed - where possible. This is "efficiency" Far too much money goes into torture. I strongly support the system of voluntary work camp programs for prisoners, especially long term offenders. Of course chances are many would still rather sit on the dole, and that is potentially what they will do when they are out. But prisoners should be lined up with federal jobs (to pay for room and board in prison), otherwise it should be charged to them, and them not get any tax returns or otherwise until their tab is paid off, but they should be given the chance to earn behind bars. Wasted human resource is just stupid managment. And social punishment isn't really that nice, so I don't know what type of social moral it is attempting to establish. The system is horrible as far as I'm concerned though, but that is the twisted mindset of Canadians. Not nice people, ignorant, unethical and willing to ruin people for revenge. It is just the facts. It isn't about making things better, it is about venting on people. They cost a lot of money. Its not worth it. We need solutions not resource drains and tortured souls. God is free and I would hope a better judge. It is a highly inefficient system that I see only generating social damage rather than fixing it. Edited January 27, 2011 by Esq Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 And of course they won't be able to re-offend in prison either so the death penalty is pointless. Except prisoners are released and often reoffend in prison as well. Prison is not a violence or crime free environment. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Guest American Woman Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 .....there will never be anything "foolproof" before a court of law. Ever. Period. Tapes can be tampered, confessions extracted illegally, evidence mishandled and these are all things that can fall through the cracks. There are times when the evidence is foolproof. Sometimes there are several witnesses to the crime. I don't think there's any doubt that they got the right man in the Giffords shootings, for example. Or the Fort Hood shootings. Killing criminals to make ourselves feel better is not just a crime in it's own right, the fact that executing an innocent person wrongfully convicted is so high that it just isn't worth reintroducing. Actually, they are put to death to make other people safer. It's not a simple matter of "making ourselves feel better." Criminals can, and do, escape. Furthermore, if I testified against a murderer who threatened to kill me if I did so, I'd feel a lot safer if he weren't around to possibly carry out the threat. I don't support the death penalty, but I don't get this idea that it's done just to make ourselves feel better. It's done to make sure that the killer doesn't kill again as much as for any other reason. Quote
scribblet Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 The latest poll from Abacus and done by Abacus, it wasn't commissioned by anyone. http://abacusdata.ca/2011/01/26/a-majority-of-canadians-support-the-death-penalty-but-only-40-want-it-reinstated/ methodology, download the report here. http://abacusdata.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Death-Penalty-Release-Final.pdf Quote: “The Prime Minister’s comments on CBC are in line with a majority of Canadians,” said Dr. David Coletto, CEO of Abacus Data. “Although a majority personally support using the death penalty in certain circumstances, a majority also do not want to see it reinstated.” Harper will continue to uphold the charter and the wishes of Canadians, I don't see the death penalty coming up any time soon, even though the Liberals are trying to make it one. LOL Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
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