Pliny Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Take your pick. Mandatory carrying and mandatory access are not the same thing. Mandatory access leaves you the choice to carry. In other words, you don't trust yourselves. You don't believe you can function in a democratic fashion without the ability to take your assault weapon to Washington and tell your elected representatives they have it wrong. Which buy the way is the antithesis of democracy. it's might makes right and mob rule. I don't trust myself? You do not understand the purpose of owning or at least having access to firearms. You are stating the purpose to be "getting your own way" or forcing others to do your bidding. Might makes right. Saying I would take my assualt rifle to Washington to get my way is idiotic! But if you would do that then I understand your concern and lack of trust in yourself and everyone else. I'm not you and your concern is about me and others and what we would do. Your imagination runs away and you think that no weapons regulations means everyone would have a nuclear arsenal in their back yard and if your neighbour doesn't keep his lawn in shape he's in big trouble for devaluing your property. Edited January 13, 2011 by Pliny Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
Pliny Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) I don't suppose there will be any apologies forthcoming over the rhetoric and incorrect assumptions, in particular the New York Times. In particular - WIP. Edited January 13, 2011 by Pliny Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
Wilber Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 18 in Quebec. I got my FAC at 13. There you go, 18 in Quebec. Bet your FAC wasn't for a handgun or fully automatic rifle. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
M.Dancer Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 There you go, 18 in Quebec. Bet your FAC wasn't for a handgun or fully automatic rifle. No...but back in 1973 it could have been for a M1 carbine with a 30 round clip... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Wilber Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 Mandatory carrying and mandatory access are not the same thing. Mandatory access leaves you the choice to carry. I don't trust myself? You do not understand the purpose of owning or at least having access to firearms. You are stating the purpose to be "getting your own way" or forcing others to do your bidding. Might makes right. Saying I would take my assault rifle to Washington to get my way is idiotic! But if you would do that then I understand your concern and lack of trust in yourself and everyone else. Access can mean many things. It can mean weapons held in government armouries for use by civilian militias that have had proper military training operating under the control of legally appointed authorities. That is what it means in most countries. Yes,taking our assault rifle to Washington is idiotic so why maintain you need the same weapons as your military to protect yourself from your military. It's more afraid of other forms of government supplanting their form of government. What do you think the big partisan divide is about? The American people...or the majority of them are American, and do not wish the US to move any further down the socialist road than they already have. Your words. Who is going to supplant your present form of government other than heavily armed citizens of your own country? You have a military to protect you from other countries and citizens who would try to overthrow your present system. Or if a government is legally elected that is too far left for your tastes, are you just going to shoot them? I'm not you and your concern is about me and others and what we would do. Your imagination runs away and you think that no weapons regulations means everyone would have a nuclear arsenal in their back yard and if your neighbour doesn't keep his lawn in shape he's in big trouble for devaluing your property. I'm not concerned about you or what you do as long as it doesn't spread across the border. I'm just not buying what you're selling. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 No...but back in 1973 it could have been for a M1 carbine with a 30 round clip... Not sure but I guess it could still be for a M1 but not the big clip. Some sanity at least. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
M.Dancer Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 Not sure but I guess it could still be for a M1 but not the big clip. Some sanity at least. It would need to be modified. The barrel is too short as is the over all length. They were effectively banned in the mid 70s because they were being used as bar brooms by biker gangs. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
WIP Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 In particular - WIP. Well, you got one thing right for a change! The right wing extremists and gun nuts deserve no apologies, and shall receive none here. Spineless leftists, and so called moderates are free to speak for themselves however. Does Jesse Kelly, the Republican gun nut, and rival to Gabrielle Giffords deserve an apology? No, he still needs to explain why he would host a campaign event that invited attendees to shoot at a target with a picture of Rep. Giffords on it. Does Sarah Palin deserve an apology, after spouting stupid statements like "don't retreat, instead reload," and posting gunsight targets on her campaign website deserve an apology? No. After all of the stupid things she's said since she became a national celebrity, this stupid, selfish bitch may have played the victim card at the wrong time by going on the attack using "blood libel" as an analogy for her persecution. No doubt she'll be firing whoever wrote her latest speech, now that most of her loyal pentecostal voting base seems to be moving more and more to Huckabee. Does Glenn Beck, who's said so many stupid things - too numerous itemize, deserve an apology? No. And in Beck's case, his idiocy can be connected to a highway cop-killer, named Byron Williams, who was apparently inspired by Beck's "expose" of the Tides Foundation, and was on his way to shoot up their HQ, and then on to the headquarters of the ACLU. He already has blood on his hands, just like FN leader Bill O'Reilly, for fomenting the eventual murder of Dr. George Tiller, with his "Tiller the baby killer" rants. Jared Loughner's favourite books and obscure rightwing influences are mostly from the right wing, and the violent rhetoric and extreme lunatic gun rights advocacy is an exclusive right wing domain. The right is trying to blur the lines of distinction between angry rhetoric and violent rhetoric, because they are incubating a fascist movement inside the broader conservative/libertarian base, and refuse for whatever reasons to criticize or remove their extremists. Instead, they try to co-opt them in support of their business agenda. So, who influenced Jared Loughner? From his own writings, his rambling attacks follow common themes of the far right: Most wind up concluding that Loughner suffered from mental problems. But experts said that several oft-repeated phrases and concepts — his fixation on grammar conspiracies, currency and the "second United States Constitution" — seem derived from concepts explored with regularity among elements of the far right. "What you can see across the board in his writings is the idea that you can't trust the government — that the government engages in mind control against its citizens," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which has long monitored the radical right. Loughner's assertion that he would not "pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver" is a running theme among right-wing opponents of the Federal Reserve system. "The people who talk about the manipulation of currency follow it backward from the IRS to the Federal Reserve … that it's run by either secret, powerful elites or secret, powerful Jewish elites," said Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a nonprofit group that also monitors right-wing extremism. Berlet wrote an article this week noting that similarly disjointed talk of government currency and money manipulation plots was found in the case of antiabortionist John C. Salvi III, convicted in the 1994 clinic shootings in Massachusetts that left two women dead and several people injured. Potok said it appeared that Loughner's frequent references to government control of the public through grammar ("The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar," Loughner said in one video) were drawn from David Wynn Miller, a far-right activist in Milwaukee. Miller has argued to a small but avid following that the government launched a control program by writing citizens' names in capital letters on their birth certificates, and that if colons and hyphens are added to people's names in a certain way, they become a "prepositional phrase" no longer subject to taxation. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/12/nation/la-na-arizona-shooting-extremism-20110112 And, where would Loughner have gotten the idea that if you're mad, you can just go in and shoot up the place? TPM has a page of links that look like a laundry list of calls to take violent action right from Republican candidates + one Bluedog Democrat: Before Shooting, A Campaign Season Rife With Gun Rhetoric Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 ...So, who influenced Jared Loughner? From his own writings, his rambling attacks follow common themes of the far right: ...or President Barack Obama, who you conveniently left out of your rant: “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia... http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/obama-we-bring-a-gun/ Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
M.Dancer Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 the board in his writings is the idea that you can't trust the government — that the government engages in mind control against its citizens," There are a few here who say the same thing....but they ain't rightwingers Loughner's assertion that he would not "pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver" is a running theme among right-wing opponents of the Federal Reserve system. Sound Like Maple_Leaf Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
WIP Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 ...or President Barack Obama, who you conveniently left out of your rant: “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia... http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/obama-we-bring-a-gun/ Which your link identifies was said at a fundraiser, not during a public campaign speech. 'Don't bring a knife to a gunfight' is an old expression that's been around longer than I have. Now does that expression, which can be interpreted into many different contexts compare with "The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants," attributed to Thomas Jefferson....someone the teaparty nevers go to for quotes when it comes to concepts like church/state separation for example. Jefferson considered the new republic to be a test project, and not something destined and consecrated by God, as Glenn Beck and present day teapartiers seem to think. Jefferson was a revolutionary, and was not averse to another violent revolution if the democratic experiment didn't work right. Are today's tea party activists considering themselves to be revolutionaries? If so, can they be charged with sedition and treason? Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
bud Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 there is no question that the usual republicans and tea party member engages in aggressive and irresponsible rhetoric, but to blame the shooting on them is weak. the man is certainly ill to have done this but it was his decision to kill. people say a lot of shit out there and we are responsible for how we interpret and react to them. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 ... Now does that expression, which can be interpreted into many different contexts compare with "The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants," attributed to Thomas Jefferson....someone the teaparty nevers go to for quotes... Irrelevant...Obama was specifically invoking Chicago style politics and methods for resolving problems. Are today's tea party activists considering themselves to be revolutionaries? If so, can they be charged with sedition and treason? No....and no. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
WIP Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 the board in his writings is the idea that you can't trust the government — that the government engages in mind control against its citizens," He's pretty off the wall, but most of his conspiracies are right wing anarchist material that are regular features on the Alex Jones Show, and similar places. There are a few here who say the same thing....but they ain't rightwingersSound Like Maple_Leaf There is a lot more civility here than most discussion forums these days. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
WIP Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 Irrelevant...Obama was specifically invoking Chicago style politics and methods for resolving problems. No....and no. Irrelevant....the right has been gleaning the web to find anything and everything that liberals, moderates or leftists have said that can be considered dangerous. The mountain of quotes coming from the right looks like an avalanche in comparison; and that's what really pissed me off when network newsreaders on CNN and elsewhere immediately went into false equivalency mode, after Sheriff Dupnick condemned the violent rhetoric that has poisoned most debates in Arizona. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
GostHacked Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 He's pretty off the wall, but most of his conspiracies are right wing anarchist material that are regular features on the Alex Jones Show, and similar places. I've not seen any right wing anarchist material on any of Alex Jones' sites/forums. Not sure if I can consider Alex Jones as right wing, or left wing, he does not subscribe you the left/right ideology. What is talked about on Jones' site for this incident is that this is a Manchurian Candidate type operation. Quote
WIP Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 there is no question that the usual republicans and tea party member engages in aggressive and irresponsible rhetoric, but to blame the shooting on them is weak. the man is certainly ill to have done this but it was his decision to kill. people say a lot of shit out there and we are responsible for how we interpret and react to them. There have been other shootings, murders, and violent attacks that have been politically motivated. They deserve some attention also. After the murder of Dr. George Tiller a couple of years ago, I noticed that some pro-choice advocates say that the occasional murders of doctors and staff members at abortion clinics seemed to take on the character of exclamation points to reinforce the thousands of death threats and acts of vandalism that they have to put up with. By hyping the hysteria, the anti-abortion groups are able to create a climate where the occasional nutcase will grab his gun and take action. And in those cases, Operation Rescue and similar groups will wash their hands of the assailant and say they do not advocate violence. I see a similar theme operating in the background, where rightwing movements use intimidation tactics to get their way, and have occasional violent acts to keep liberals in a state of fear. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
WIP Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 I've not seen any right wing anarchist material on any of Alex Jones' sites/forums. Not sure if I can consider Alex Jones as right wing, or left wing, he does not subscribe you the left/right ideology. What is talked about on Jones' site for this incident is that this is a Manchurian Candidate type operation. Sometimes he leaves the reservation, like he did when he went hard against the Bush Administration over the Iraq War and became the main hub of the 9-11 truther movement. But Jones's anti-government anarchism plays to a rightwing crowd. Since conservatives and libertarians identify government as the source of most problems, whereas liberals and leftists want to improve government services and use government to balance the gaps between rich and poor, most of what Alex Jones says is music to the ears of the rightwing.....except when he goes into looney conspiracy theory land. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
GostHacked Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 Sometimes he leaves the reservation, like he did when he went hard against the Bush Administration over the Iraq War Many of us went hard against Bush over the Iraq war. Even more so now after some of the facts have come about. and became the main hub of the 9-11 truther movement. I thought 9/11 was more or less of an inside job even before I was introduced to Alex Jones. But Jones's anti-government anarchism plays to a rightwing crowd. He is not anti-government, he is anti-corrupt government. He wants the US to pull out of entities like the UN, because he does not beleive it is a force of good in the world. He is not an anarchist, I've been listening to him for a few months straight now and there is nothing anti-government about him. Since conservatives and libertarians identify government as the source of most problems, whereas liberals and leftists want to improve government services and use government to balance the gaps between rich and poor, most of what Alex Jones says is music to the ears of the rightwing.....except when he goes into looney conspiracy theory land. There might be some right-wing items from posters on the forums, but from much of what I have read, no one is anti-government, but at least are doing what they can to protect themselves from the obvious corruption. In terms of the TSA fiasco with the pat downs and body scanners, he predicted it would be a big news item a couple months before it got on the likes of CNN, FOX, MSNBC ...... I don't want to make this thread about Jones, but I think people discount him way to easily. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 There have been other shootings, murders, and violent attacks that have been politically motivated. They deserve some attention also. As opposed to just regular garden variety murders? After the murder of Dr. George Tiller a couple of years ago, I noticed that some pro-choice advocates say that the occasional murders of doctors and staff members at abortion clinics seemed to take on the character of exclamation points to reinforce the thousands of death threats and acts of vandalism that they have to put up with. ...and it worked too. Fewer doctors will perform the procedure just because of sloppy contraception. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 Mandatory to carry or mandatory to have access? It's more afraid of other forms of government supplanting their form of government. What do you think the big partisan divide is about? The American people...or the majority of them are American, and do not wish the US to move any further down the socialist road than they already have. Until we can fully trust each other and there is no more insanity in the world can we drop our vigilance for freedom and liberty. The American people...or the majority of them are American, and do not wish the US to move any further down the socialist road than they already have. True in some cases maybe but not all. Americans prior to the last election polled favorably when asked if there should be public healthcare. This is a big part of why Obama won... he campaigned on a public option, insurance exchanges, etc. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) It would need to be modified. The barrel is too short as is the over all length. They were effectively banned in the mid 70s because they were being used as bar brooms by biker gangs. Got a buddy who was working seismic in the Arctic around 1970 and kept an old M1 for bear protection. He was playing with it in a Calgary hotel room one day and it went off. Bullet went through the wall and bathroom mirror of the room next door. Good thing the guy next door wasn't having a shave at the time. They were not impressed but he wasn't charged by the police, only for the damage. Different time maybe. Oh ya, it also went through the closet so the guy next door got a partial new wardrobe courtesy of my friend. Edited January 13, 2011 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
M.Dancer Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 Got a buddy who was working seismic in the Arctic around 1970 and kept an old M1 for bear protection. He was playing with it in a Calgary hotel room one day and it went off. Bullet went through the wall and bathroom mirror of the room next door. Good thing the guy next door wasn't having a shave at the time. They were not impressed but he wasn't charged by the police, only for the damage. Different time maybe. Oh ya, it also went through the closet so the guy next door got a partial new wardrobe courtesy of my friend. That was probably an M1 Garrand. The M1 Carbine (sometimes called the cooks rifle) would only make a bear angry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 That was probably an M1 Garrand.... ...another fine Canadian firearms contribution...in the USA! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted January 13, 2011 Report Posted January 13, 2011 That was probably an M1 Garrand. The M1 Carbine (sometimes called the cooks rifle) would only make a bear angry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand Guess so, I never saw it. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
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