M.Dancer Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 dancer as a mod? I'd leave he's been on my ignore list for some time now... That's okay, you have been on my laugh at list even longer... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Shwa Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 I disagree. Forums full of posters insulting people are the equivalent of a dirty neighbourhood. Likewise, for pointless or pedestrian arguments. We have built something valuable here in the body of posters that remain, and are able to argue points well - why should we do nothing when the Lictors of the world show up with their bouquets of crap ? Or the David Mabeuses or Mobiuses or whatever the hell the guy is called. However, most of it is merely heckling and mocking and if someone can't deal with it, in this day and age, they need to get off the stage of the World Wide Web and perhaps take up knitting or something more serenity inducing. Candle making perhaps. No insults (or outsults) in the status updates. We were told, we obeyed. With some good natured mocking and heckling, which I don't think anyone was banned for. Further to that, I will make a point of calling out posters regardless of their political bent. No, you get bent! Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 That's okay, you have been on my laugh at list even longer... I guess we have a bug in that feature then... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) I believe good moderation falls somewhere in between total anarchy and strict approval of each postings (which would be closer to fascism). Not to be polical, Greg, but strict approval of posts based on the required behaviour of the site is not facism. It's not like you're approving based on political content, ideas of philosophy, but based on the fairly easily understood rules and regulations. And all those rules and regulations essentially require is that you not be disrespectful to the person you're debating. Now I KNOW that I am OFTEN less than respectful to the person I'm debating. All I can say it's not in my nature to turn the other cheek, and if someone say something I consider to be insulting or disrespectful I'm going to be insulting and disrespectful right back. The problem with the site today as opposed to several years back is that the majority of the political debates contain a lot of disrespectful attitudes and words, if not open insults. That really leaves you with few alternatives but joining in or being a saint and refusing to respond - and I think August is about the only one here who succeeds at that. As in life, the majority of offenses go unpunished - it is simply unrealistic to monitor every post or private message of every single contributor. PMs, no, though I have no idea how many are made. It shouldn't be hard to skim the new messages, especially the ones on the worst boards, ie, the federal and us politics, and "the rest of the world" boards. You don't even have to read closely, just look for insults. I don't have the time nor the patience to undertake such a task and I don't think anyone would want to contribute to a forum where their behavior is constantly watched and critiqued. I don't know about that, Greg. Anyone who posts anything here has to know that their every word is going to be watched and critiqued, rudely, roughly, by other posters. I think that the rough and tumble and insults more likely discourages more people than more stringent moderation does. How many good, quality, thoughtful posters have drifted away in the last couple of years? And how many adolescent jerks have drifted in and found a place they can call home? On the other hand, it's important that someone (Charles and I, in this case) keep an eye out for negative trends (repeated offenses, etc) and severe rule breaking. Well, I think the negative trend I've noticed is that conversations have gotten ruder, nastier, and more insulting, and that we seem to have fewer contributers. It's actually rare now to see someone posting who I'm not already well-familiar with. As I've stated in the past, this forum is what you make of it. I can't force peace (or intelligent discussion, for that matter) upon anyone.Well, you can force manners on people. Or Charles can, or Scott. I've contributed to moderated sites before where my posts were rejected if they contained anything which might be considered insulting to another poster. It is everyone's responsibility to take the high road when attacked or insulted and the strength of the community (and the discussion is produces) depends on the majority of the participants treating each other with respect. I would say that the majority of the posters don't. And taking the high road is not something everyone can do, especially all the time, when someone is taunting you. Edited January 4, 2011 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 I agree that we need another moderator, the insults etc. are becoming more frequent, at one time this was a great place with very few insults and personal attacks. The moderator would have to be completely unbiased of course. The moderator doesn't have to be unbiased. He just has to care enough about the site to keep the insults down. Does ANYONE here think I'm unbiased? But I can certainly tell when someone is being disrespectful and say, delete the post. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 Or the David Mabeuses or Mobiuses or whatever the hell the guy is called. However, most of it is merely heckling and mocking and if someone can't deal with it, in this day and age, they need to get off the stage of the World Wide Web and perhaps take up knitting Except that heckling and mocking is against the rules. So what you're saying is that people shouldn't be expected to have to follow the rules because only weenies expect people to follow rules and you want to feel free to insult others. Which is exactly the attitude people are complaining about. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 No, but you might pull someone's shorts down figuratively with a witty rejoinder, after you had spoken with them for a bit... or in our case... for thousands of posts over several years. Only if you were friends. He's right in that people here often talk in ways which would lead to fisticuffs in real life. Even among friends, actually. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 There is of course, the third option. I would do very little. I think the ideal moderator does bugger all aside from sweeping the halls of dust and emptying the bins. For me, the only thing that crosses the line are commercial spammers and threats. You ever been to usenet? That seems to be what you're calling for. Try can.politics sometime, if it's still in operation. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
M.Dancer Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 You ever been to usenet? That seems to be what you're calling for. Try can.politics sometime, if it's still in operation. Oh Gosh...not since the advent of the GUI Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Argus Posted January 4, 2011 Report Posted January 4, 2011 Oh Gosh...not since the advent of the GUI At one point it was actually a good place to discuss politics. Oh it was nasty at times, with frequent insults, but a lot of thoughtful posts too. It got taken over by people who were essentially trolls, though, then single-subject crazies who'd post repeatedly on abortion or Israel or a variety of foreign causes. Then the spammers added their noise to the point I stopped bothering. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Moonlight Graham Posted January 5, 2011 Report Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) When i first came here i was warned twice about some insults or rude posts. Wasn't used to such a "civil" board code, but i think it was a good thing. I straightened up. There's a lot of bashing going on, and it makes the atmosphere around here less than friendly. This is a place for debate & discussion, not a place to get your angst out on others after a tough work/school day. I'd be in favour of stricter moderation, whether by a new moderator or whatever. Edited January 5, 2011 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
M.Dancer Posted January 5, 2011 Report Posted January 5, 2011 I too have cleaned up my act. I no longer use potty words. Even to addled brained tinfoil eaters.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Scotty Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Posted January 5, 2011 How would you know how it was before ? Didn't you just show up here ? No, I have been here a while, but mostly lurking. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Posted January 5, 2011 I too joined this board some time ago but visit infrequently and never bother to post much. Seems the same old same old to me. Frankly I find your contempt for the various personalities on this board insulting. And nanny mods are always annoying. What is annoying is trying to have an intelligent conversation and continually encountering people who act like juvenile fools. If that is the wish of the board then so be it. However, the rules and regulations should be changed to warn people that everything aside from direct obscene insults is acceptable. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Posted January 5, 2011 I too have cleaned up my act. I no longer use potty words. Even to addled brained tinfoil eaters.... But you make it clear you think they are addle brained tinfoil eaters. That is the whole point. Rather than attack them, even if they ARE addle brained tinfoil eaters, you ought to be attacking the argument instead. I suppose it's expecting far too much to suggest gentlemanly politeness on a web site, but if people didn't do their best to make absolutely clear what an absolute moron they think the other person is by their tone and language, then there'd be less fights and more people would post. If what you really want are the fights there are plenty of places to find them. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
M.Dancer Posted January 5, 2011 Report Posted January 5, 2011 But you make it clear you think they are addle brained tinfoil eaters. Well, I suppose I could lie and pretend that tinfoil is gold... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Scotty Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Posted January 5, 2011 Have said that, I'm open to the suggestion that another moderator be added to the mix. I am going to speak with Charles and I will be posting a request in this section of the forum shortly. Feel free to add your two cents to the discussion below. Thanks, I hate the idea of sending a message to the moderator every time someone is rude or petty, and I doubt they would act on it anyway. You never know if anything happened when you send a complaint either. And I think that is one of the essential problems. Imagine if you called the police because your neighbour punched you, but they never showed up. They never said if they made an arrest, if there was a trial, and if so what sentence your neighbor got. As far as you can see nothing was done. Then your neighbor punches you again, and the same thing happens. So how long are you going to keep bothering to call the police? So people wind up not bothering to contact the moderator even for direct, nasty insults. And they certainly don't contact the moderator just because someone is being rude and disrespectful. Again, if that's the way you want it, that's fine, but your rules say otherwise. I would report every violation of the rules I encountered if I thought the moderators were actually interested in doing anything about them. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Posted January 5, 2011 Well, I suppose I could lie and pretend that tinfoil is gold... I will grant you that it can be a fine line between tearing apart an argument and being disrespectful towards the person who posted it. But I've read your posts enough to know you're quite intelligent and quite good with words. I know you know the difference. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
M.Dancer Posted January 5, 2011 Report Posted January 5, 2011 I know you know the difference. I'm here for entertainment, not to earn a B+ Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Shwa Posted January 5, 2011 Report Posted January 5, 2011 unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Except that heckling and mocking is against the rules. So what you're saying is that people shouldn't be expected to have to follow the rules because only weenies expect people to follow rules and you want to feel free to insult others. Which is exactly the attitude people are complaining about. Says he who is one of the worse offenders of them all. If you can't take it Argie, then don't dish it out right? And don't bother to blame others for your own poor behaviour either, that is simply bad form. As for any heckling or mocking I give or receive, there is no seriousness to it - which is also in the rules btw, if you actually took the time ot read them. What are you going to do, insult my username on the Internet and expect me to feel bad or something? Really, you take yourself far more seriously than anyone else does and that is the attitude that causes the problems. Maybe you should lighten up a bit. Quote
Charles Anthony Posted January 5, 2011 Report Posted January 5, 2011 What is annoying is trying to have an intelligent conversation and continually encountering people who act like juvenile fools. If that is the wish of the board then so be it. However, the rules and regulations should be changed to warn people that everything aside from direct obscene insults is acceptable. That is categorically NOT the wish of the board. I hate the idea of sending a message to the moderator every time someone is rude or petty, and I doubt they would act on it anyway. You never know if anything happened when you send a complaint either. Some members are shy about reporting posts. You should not be shy. You have more power to effect change RIGHT NOW than you realize. Like Greg mentioned, this board is what you make of it and we do not have the time to read every single post. If you read a bad post, report it. If you encounter somebody acting like an ass, report the post and ignore that member. Following that strategy is an efficient method of eliminating the nonsense. And I think that is one of the essential problems. Imagine if you called the police because your neighbour punched you, but they never showed up. They never said if they made an arrest, if there was a trial, and if so what sentence your neighbor got. As far as you can see nothing was done. Then your neighbor punches you again, and the same thing happens. So how long are you going to keep bothering to call the police? So people wind up not bothering to contact the moderator even for direct, nasty insults. And they certainly don't contact the moderator just because someone is being rude and disrespectful. I understand exactly what you mean. After you report a post, it seems like nothing happens. In the past, we would send a reply to the person reporting the post. We can no longer do that effectively now. I can assure you that every report is treated seriously. You just have no idea what happens behind the scenes. We communicate with offenders in a manner which may seem lenient but the intent is genuinely to foster diverse civilized discussion. I would report every violation of the rules I encountered if I thought the moderators were actually interested in doing anything about them. Please feel free to do so.Keep in mind that the nature of our moderation is to err on the side of fostering better discussion as opposed to risking the stifling of diverse discussion. From your vantage point, it may seem like nothing is done. However, the offender may actually be taking a time-out of a week or two without you realizing it. We will warn a member before suspending that member. We will warn again before banning that member. We will ban if there is no convincing intent to smarten up. I hope that helps encourage you to continue participating both in the discussions and in the moderation. If not, go find a better forum in Canada. Quote We do not have time for a meeting of the flat earth society. << Où sont mes amis ? Ils sont ici, ils sont ici... >>
Scotty Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Posted January 5, 2011 I'm here for entertainment, not to earn a B+ I think all of us are here for entertainment. However, I find intelligent discussion entertaining, not mockery, sarcastic insults and open displays of contempt thrown back and forth. I don't mean to say that an argument can't be taken apart with a degree of wit, but contempt is rarely amusing. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Argus Posted January 5, 2011 Report Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) Says he who is one of the worse offenders of them all. If you can't take it Argie, then don't dish it out right? And don't bother to blame others for your own poor behaviour either, that is simply bad form. I think provocation is a pretty settled and accepted cultural explanation for why I would treat an unpleasant braying ass in the way it deserves. As for any heckling or mocking I give or receive, there is no seriousness to it Right. Which is why almost every time you open your mouth you piss people off. Really, you take yourself far more seriously than anyone else does and that is the attitude that causes the problems. Maybe you should lighten up a bit. Attitude causes problems, all right, and you have it. Some are here to discuss things relatively seriously. And then there's you - here to heckle and mock. And then you whine when people treat you badly. I think, though, I will take Charles' advice, to the extent that those who have absolutely no value, who contribute absolutely nothing to this site should simply be ignored. I only have three people on my ignore list. I think I will increase it by one more. Bush Cheney, Oleg, Bjr, meet Shwa. Edited January 5, 2011 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
M.Dancer Posted January 5, 2011 Report Posted January 5, 2011 I think all of us are here for entertainment. However, I find intelligent discussion entertaining, not mockery, sarcastic insults and open displays of contempt thrown back and forth. I don't mean to say that an argument can't be taken apart with a degree of wit, but contempt is rarely amusing. Some people like Danny Kay, some people like Bob Newhart and some like Don Rickles. What you like is your own business, but mockery is hugely popular...see Air Farce, THH22M or the RMR. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Shwa Posted January 5, 2011 Report Posted January 5, 2011 I think provocation is a pretty settled and accepted cultural explanation for why I would treat an unpleasant braying ass in the way it deserves. Right. Which is why almost every time you open your mouth you piss people off. Attitude causes problems, all right, and you have it. Some are here to discuss things relatively seriously. And then there's you - here to heckle and mock. And then you whine when people treat you badly. I think, though, I will take Charles' advice, to the extent that those who have absolutely no value, who contribute absolutely nothing to this site should simply be ignored. I only have three people on my ignore list. I think I will increase it by one more. Bush Cheney, Oleg, Bjr, meet Shwa. Like I said Argie, hands down, you're one of the worst offenders of the very thing you complain about. Quote
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