Idea on senior care

[Argus]

So we have all these seniors who are having a hard time taking care of themselves. But it's far cheaper for the state, and better for the seniors - if they can be taken care of in their own homes.

Then we have all these people on welfare not doing much in life. Hmmm.

So how about this. We set up an agency to which these people on welfare can report, and it will transport them to the homes of seniors to do some basic housework and care. The welfare people will get $10hr for their work, which will NOT be deducted from welfare. The senior will pay half, the province the other half.

[madmax]

So we have all these seniors who are having a hard time taking care of themselves. But it's far cheaper for the state, and better for the seniors - if they can be taken care of in their own homes.

It can be. Each situation is different, but there is a need for homecare.

Then we have all these people on welfare not doing much in life. Hmmm.

Very Interesting comment.

So how about this. We set up an agency to which these people on welfare can report,

It already exists.

and it will transport them to the homes of seniors to do some basic housework and care.

Each Municipality decides whether they will cover travel costs for someone on OW involved in work or training.

The welfare people will get $10hr for their work, which will NOT be deducted from welfare. The senior will pay half, the province the other half.

1)If there was a volunteer sheet. That would be good.

2) Can the Senior afford to pay half, and how many hours?

3) Can the gov afford transportation

4) You as anyone else should know that any monies earned while on Ontario Works is deducted and will continue to be deducted. You are suggesting that the government pays in an Xtra $5/hour on top of what the Current $585.

5)In effect You are encouraging an Ad Hoc Guaranteed Income for a select group.

6) Welfare pays $585 per month for a single individual living in Toronto.

7) The reason your idea is unlikely to fly is...

Regardless of all the clawbacks and quicksand that keep people caught in the welfare quagmire, there are training programs available (AT TIMES) that allow a prospective client to take on a train for a position such as PSW.

If you are working part-time and would need more training to move into a full-time job, you or your employer may be eligible to receive a subsidy to offset the cost of training. We can refer you to an Employment Placement Consultant to help you apply for this benefit.

They then leave the Welfare system and work for Agencies for the minimum wage and roughly $10.25/per hour.

Then there is the trips to the food bank if they are unable to locate a Full 40 hours of work as many psw employment in homecare is under 20hours and it is often the same 20 hours that the families require support for their elderly. THere is no more available funding for more hours of health care service.

Bottom line Argus.

If the money isn't there, any program is going to struggle.

Being as your are a Bean Counter.

1) Do the math to generate the revenue.

2) Do the cost analysis of the program.

Demonstrate the net benefit and the service provided.

My guess is that your program,

$10.00/hour and no clawback, will cost the government ALOT more money.

However, I am only skimming the surface of this just as your post is blue skying.

At the same time, I wouldn't want someone unqualified taking care of a member of my family.

Something which your proposal doesn't address.

Edited December 13, 2010 by madmax

[Michael Hardner]

'taking care of' is sometimes as basic as going to the store for someone or cleaning up their yard...

I think this is an excellent suggestion and Ontario Works could conceivably facilitate this.

[Oleg Bach]

'taking care of' is sometimes as basic as going to the store for someone or cleaning up their yard...

I think this is an excellent suggestion and Ontario Works could conceivably facilitate this.

Watching some nasty immigrant types tossing around a woman of 90 as if she were a piece of wood - as they took her back to the "home" after her hospital stay - to ride in a rusted out ambulace with the word "diginty" stamped on the side...I just came to a conclution - Most of our aged who need real care are the fading anglo saxons...most of the younger people who are Ontario Works are anglos....It makes sense that we send in OUR own young tribe members to take care of the elders...

Now don't tell me that someone from the Pacific rim or failed African state who took a six weak course as a PSW...is really going to care for Martha Smith...Martha Smith represents the aging weakinging WHITE oppressors ---and old Martha will get a smack in the face for pooping in her diapers to often.

[Michael Hardner]

Well, it's a job so presumably the objects of care would have some say. At least, that would make SENSE wouldn't it ?

That would give them plenty of room to express their concerns - racist or otherwise.

[Shwa]

Well, it's a job so presumably the objects of care would have some say. At least, that would make SENSE wouldn't it ?

That would give them plenty of room to express their concerns - racist or otherwise.

Ah the Alvin Toffler world comes into it's own. Whatever happened to families looking after their elderly and then, if no family can, why not the community? Not by some job or workfare program, but as an ethic.

It seems to me that the overall value of workfare could have gone to better use educating folks to look after their family members instead of dumping them off on the state because of convenience.

[Sir Bandelot]

Yeah but who wants to allow unbonded strangers into their home?

How about this, families should take care of their own seniors. To encourage it, the government gives a tax break similar to child tax credit, like a seniors tax credit. There would have to be some mechanism of proof that the senior is being cared for by the person claiming the credit.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[Bonam]

Yeah but who wants to allow unbonded strangers into their home?

Indeed. I dunno about you guys, but I wouldn't want some welfare bum barely off the street anywhere near my grandparents, let alone supposedly taking care of them.

How about this, families should take care of their own seniors. To encourage it, the government gives a tax break similar to child tax credit, like a seniors tax credit. There would have to be some mechanism of proof that the senior is being cared for by the person claiming the credit.

I like this idea.

[Michael Hardner]

Ah the Alvin Toffler world comes into it's own. Whatever happened to families looking after their elderly and then, if no family can, why not the community? Not by some job or workfare program, but as an ethic.

Whatever happened to it ? Are you serious ? The government is your mother now, that's what happened.

It seems to me that the overall value of workfare could have gone to better use educating folks to look after their family members instead of dumping them off on the state because of convenience.

Specializing now means there are experts in everything, including those who are experts in caring about people. Maybe specializing will start to go away soon - that sure seems to be the trend.

[guyser]

Watching some nasty immigrant types tossing around a woman of 90 as if she were a piece of wood -

Why watch, pitch in and help the beating...

.I just came to a conclution ...

Uh oh, this cant end well.

...most of the younger people who are Ontario Works are anglos....It makes sense that we send in OUR own young tribe members to take care of the elders...

Sure, why let the immigrants beat them, we have our on born and bred that can do it well....right?

Now don't tell me that someone from the Pacific rim or failed African state who took a six weak course as a PSW...is really going to care for Martha Smith...Martha Smith represents the aging weakinging WHITE oppressors ---and old Martha will get a smack in the face for pooping in her diapers to often.

Not sure, but some brain addled old russian emigre could sure use a smack to the head every now and then.

Edited December 13, 2010 by guyser

[Shwa]

Whatever happened to it ? Are you serious ? The government is your mother now, that's what happened.

Specializing now means there are experts in everything, including those who are experts in caring about people. Maybe specializing will start to go away soon - that sure seems to be the trend.

I kind of wonder what the post-aging-boomer world will be like. (after they have, uh, moved on) How will it affect areas such health care and senior care? Will it revert to the same sort of ethic that we have been taught about -'what it was like in my day?'

Now I see this as the current ethic for a large portion of immigrants - the family taking care of their elderly. Not sure how widespread it is, but we could learn a lesson from them.

Plus tax credits - great idea!

[Michael Hardner]

It's important to realize the effect that major events of the 20th century had on our ideas of government: the depression, the war, the post-war military-industrial complex, consumerism and so on.

[Shwa]

It's important to realize the effect that major events of the 20th century had on our ideas of government: the depression, the war, the post-war military-industrial complex, consumerism and so on.

Absolutely, but how has the postwar baby-boom affected our ideas? For example, without the baby boomers, would Trudeau have gotten in? Nevermind the cultural implications, sex, drugs and rock and roll.

[Michael Hardner]

Absolutely, but how has the postwar baby-boom affected our ideas? For example, without the baby boomers, would Trudeau have gotten in? Nevermind the cultural implications, sex, drugs and rock and roll.

Hmmmm.... I think you're asking why the baby boomers were hippies aren't you ?

If that's what you're asking, then my answer is 'television'.

[Shwa]

Hmmmm.... I think you're asking why the baby boomers were hippies aren't you ?

If that's what you're asking, then my answer is 'television'.

touché

No, not why they were what they were, but what influence do their numbers have the on the various social systems - many developed by their demands - and what the affect on those system will be post-boomers. Are the systems elastic enough to bounce back into some more idealized form?

[Michael Hardner]

touché

No, not why they were what they were,

I can't come up with a better reason...

but what influence do their numbers have the on the various social systems - many developed by their demands - and what the affect on those system will be post-boomers. Are the systems elastic enough to bounce back into some more idealized form?

Bureaucratic entropy is reaching a critical point, I would say. Fixing that should just require the will to reorganize. Maybe if one entity does it, the others will follow.

[Argus]

Bottom line Argus.

If the money isn't there, any program is going to struggle.

Being as your are a Bean Counter.

1) Do the math to generate the revenue.

2) Do the cost analysis of the program.

Demonstrate the net benefit and the service provided.

My guess is that your program,

$10.00/hour and no clawback, will cost the government ALOT more money.

Of course, I don't have the necessary information to do a cost/benefit analyses. You'd need to study how many seniors would otherwise have to go into government subsidized senior care and at what price, as well as how many seniors would become more ill, requiring much more expensive treatment, if someone couldn't remind them of their meds, say, once a day. How much their hospital stays cost, etc.

What I DO know is that there isn't enough senior care now, and that because of that ill seniors are clogging the health care system, staying in extremely expensive hospital beds because the hospitals have nowhere to send them. I also know that absent minded seniors who aren't properly looking after themselves wind up in hospital much more, at great expense.

And then we have this big pool of labour more than capable of doing minor chores, reminding them of their meds, doing a little cleaning, taking out the garbage, going to the store, etc. Why shouldn't we have them doing it? Obviously an incentive is needed, thus the money. They're not going to do it if the money is clawed back.

It just seems a bloody waste of both money and manpower, and there needs to be a way to reconcile this.

[Argus]

Yeah but who wants to allow unbonded strangers into their home?

Do you think most seniors have a lot of valuable electronics and jewelery lying around to be pilfered? We're talking about poorer seniors, after all, or they could afford the home care services offered by private companies.

How about this, families should take care of their own seniors.

Nice to say, not so easy when, presuming they have kids, they're in another city. Or maybe mom lives in Kanata and the kids are out in Russel.

[dre]

So we have all these seniors who are having a hard time taking care of themselves. But it's far cheaper for the state, and better for the seniors - if they can be taken care of in their own homes.

Then we have all these people on welfare not doing much in life. Hmmm.

So how about this. We set up an agency to which these people on welfare can report, and it will transport them to the homes of seniors to do some basic housework and care. The welfare people will get $10hr for their work, which will NOT be deducted from welfare. The senior will pay half, the province the other half.

The problem is that free marketers will decry this as "socialism", because the government will be compteting against private sector companies that provide these services, and costing that industry jobs.

[Argus]

The problem is that free marketers will decry this as "socialism", because the government will be compteting against private sector companies that provide these services, and costing that industry jobs.

I have nothing against socialism - or capitalism, as long as it works. Oftentimes socialist ideas don't work, for one reason or another. Sometimes capitalism doesn't either. Certainly in this case, capitalism is not working. We therefore need an alternative and I'm willing to try this out.

[dre]

I have nothing against socialism - or capitalism, as long as it works. Oftentimes socialist ideas don't work, for one reason or another. Sometimes capitalism doesn't either. Certainly in this case, capitalism is not working. We therefore need an alternative and I'm willing to try this out.

Yup I hear ya. I dont think your idea is bad, just pointing out who your opposition is going to be in terms of trying to get it implemented.

I think its worth a try!

One quick thing... youd have to screen people pretty well. Theres a lot of decent people on welfare who have just run into hard luck, but theres some scumbags as well, and youll want to avoid sending them to the homes of vulnerable old folks.

[Bonam]

Yup I hear ya. I dont think your idea is bad, just pointing out who your opposition is going to be in terms of trying to get it implemented.

I don't think he'd get as much opposition from that quarter as you might think. I'm probably one of those you'd consider as reflexively replying with "socialism is bad", but, given the choice of someone living off welfare or the government providing a program where they can get a job, the second is preferable, in that the person has to work to get money rather than getting it for nothing via welfare.

That being said, I've already mentioned my problem with such a program.

[M.Dancer]

So let me get this straight, people on welfare, whon for what ever reason can't take carfe of themselves and rely on the state to take care of them, would be given the responsibility to take carfe of seniors?

Now I don't know how it goes for all, but my f-in-l is in a long term care facility, and no swiss sanitarium this, and his monthly bill is near $3500 per month (and that's out of the family pocket, not the states). And how exactly am I and the family supposed to have confidence that his meds are taken, his meals eaten and his backside cleaned when the care is to be given by someone either incapable of work or either too stupid or too lazy to work?

[August1991]

Argus, let me echo Morris' point above.

IME, poor people in North America (people on welfare) are there because they consistently make bad decisions in life.

How do we teach such people to make good decisions? Dunno. But I think that sending them to homes with old, confused people is a recipe for disaster.

How about this, families should take care of their own seniors. To encourage it, the government gives a tax break similar to child tax credit, like a seniors tax credit.

I agree. The best way to help other people is through family. That's why families exist. Even friendship does not match family as a method to co-operate.

When prices exist, markets are wonderful for co-operation.

Without prices, to co-operate and have people work together and help one another, corporations may work and government is a last resort. Family and friendship work better though. There are so many pricing problems in helping older people manage that family (not government or markets) should do this.

Most of our aged who need real care are the fading anglo saxons...

This is a striking feature of modern Canada, but political correctness prohibits its mention. And trust Oleg to raise it.

I was recently in a senior residence/assisted living facility/old folks home. (What's the PC/official name now?) Mostly women, all white, all named Tremblay/Gauthier etc. The attendants were mostly black or Latino or Asian. Mostly women. (This was in Montreal.)

I sometimes stop for coffee in a Westmount food court. I typically see an older woman/man in a wheel chair/walker, either WASP or Jewish, and a Filipino attendant. No doubt the kids, perhaps in the US, have arranged care for their parent.

----

Argus, your thread is interesting because we are like people on a beach and the wave is just starting to arrive - the water has yet to crest.

I think that Warren Buffet said, in a different context, when the wave recedes and the water level falls, everyone sees who was naked.

Edited December 15, 2010 by August1991

[Topaz]

Could the answer to this being preventive medicine? At age 50, everyone should get a medical and correct any problems that they can so that when they get to age 65 and older they are not sent to nursing homes. We have information for good health from our regular doctors but also from natural doctors that can help keep people young and healthy longer. Just look at the Chinese, they have a very long life and I think we should also look into the way in North America food is processed and all the add-ins that are put into our foods. Also, exercise is also very important and mental health, like stress.