Civilization v. Savagery - From Middle East to Europe and Back Again

[Jack Weber]

T'was intentional.

Perhaps we need a Reichstag Fire False Flag incident to make it all the more nostalgic?

Edited November 18, 2010 by Jack Weber

[DogOnPorch]

Perhaps we need a Reichstag Fire False Flag incident to make it all the more nostalgic?

---

Interesting dates...

July 27th, 1914

Aug 31st, 1939

Dec 6th, 1941

Sept 10th, 2001

Who knows? Might have already happened. The best thing about war is the day before it breaks out. Ahhhh....bliss.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Islam is peace.

Islam is a very large and divided religion.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam is a very large and divided religion.

Islam = Submission

[Guest TrueMetis]

Islam = Submission

I'm beginning to think you are a troll.

[DogOnPorch]

I'm beginning to think you are a troll.

OK...what does Islam mean in translation?

[Melanie_]

Unique interpretation.

G-d stopped the infanticide from happening.

I don't think most Jewish or Christian women are subject to the threat of honor killing, deprived of any right to drive, to vote etc.

How did I forget about this thread?

Yes, it is a unique interpretation. What do you have to say about it? What is Abraham's connection to Sodom and Gommorah? What do you have to say about Lot offering his virgin daughters to the crowd of rapists, and then violating them himself? Do you agree with god that this qualifies him as a righteous man?

Yes, God stopped the infanticide from happening, but that isn't the point. Abraham believed that was what was expected of him, and was prepared to carry it out, in the name of his god. So his child wasn't seen as a person in his own right, just a pawn in the relationship of Abraham with his god. Is this your view of children?

I'll save the question about women's rights for later, after you have dealt with the first two questions.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Melanie_

[Melanie_]

Of course, your point obviously raises the rejoinder that is legal abortion.

Nope. Abortion involves a fetus, not a child.

[Guest TrueMetis]

G-d stopped the infanticide from happening.

What about all the infanticide he caused, not the stuff he indirectly caused the stuff he directly did?

[Oleg Bach]

Islam = Peace

The term Islam means submission - to GOD - which is not a bad idea - problem these days is that Muslims submit NOT to God but to religious leaders that are in them selves NOT submissive or subordinate to God...

Now - as for civilization - a lawyer told me outside a court house one afternoon that "the courts have only a veneer of civilization" - that they are barbaric and oppressive - corrupt institutions...when my younger brother and I prodded through the sytem like old knights for our five year battle with supposed civility..we used to drink on the way home and dream..."if were were in the time where we truely belonged - we would sharpen our swords - mount our horses and simply chop of the evil bastards heads and put an end to the affair" But - we could not do that because evil is fully protected under the law...so..

Perhaps swords and good horses were MORE civlized and MORE honest and better than a group of weasil lawyers and sexually frustrated male and female judicary?

[GostHacked]

I'm beginning to think you are a troll.

Beginning to think?

And all religions require you to submit in some fashion.

[Oleg Bach]

Beginning to think?

And all religions require you to submit in some fashion.

DON'T YOU JUST HATE IT - WHEN THEY SAY ..."TROLL" - OR "BETTER TAKE YOUR MEDS" ---------------YES RELIGIOUS - ECONOMIC OR SOCIAL SUBMISSION IS A NECCESITY TO ORDER.....

But I as a man who thinks of himself as king as all men should do - should never SUBMIT TO AN INFERIOUR KING>>> of a king is greater than I - I bow..to him - and if it is a great Queen - I bow and kiss her feet - then work my way up her leg.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Beginning to think?

And all religions require you to submit in some fashion.

Perhaps I gave him the benefit of the doubt to long.

[GostHacked]

Perhaps I gave him the benefit of the doubt to long.

I hate to use this but ..... obvious troll is obvious.

[DogOnPorch]

Beginning to think?

And all religions require you to submit in some fashion.

Islam does mean "submission"...look it up.

[DogOnPorch]

I hate to use this but ..... obvious troll is obvious.

Fighting the same ol' battle over and over can be tedious. But here's a question for you: why do you give an ounce of respect to Islam? Forget some relative excuse about how Christians and Jews are just as bad...why is Islam worth even a glimmer of your respect?

[jbg]

As supported by Presidents of the United States.

No, not THAT one. THIS ONE.

This is one reason why he was a better president than many realize.

Bush was correctly seeking to ensure domestic tranquility. He did not want hate or revenge attacks against Muslims. That kind of activity is not what either of our countries are about.

[Shwa]

Fighting the same ol' battle over and over can be tedious. But here's a question for you: why do you give an ounce of respect to Islam? Forget some relative excuse about how Christians and Jews are just as bad...why is Islam worth even a glimmer of your respect?

Because they control the pita industry and pitas are awesome! Pitas are worth submitting to. In fact, I am getting one from Pita pit tonight for supper. Mmmmmm, falafel....

[GostHacked]

Fighting the same ol' battle over and over can be tedious.

What battle? Try to be specific, if you can.

But here's a question for you: why do you give an ounce of respect to Islam? Forget some relative excuse about how Christians and Jews are just as bad...why is Islam worth even a glimmer of your respect?

I don't. I just find it funny that you like me do not care for any religion, but you really love to single out one particular one. No religion is worth a glimmer of my respect, wait that is not entirely true. Live and let live. If a certain religion works for someone , who really am I to say otherwise. However, to me they are all delusional in believing in a fairy tale instead of themselves.

But damn dude, all you do for Islam (on the whole instead of focusing on the radical element that is needed) so all Muslims get painted. But yet you have problems with painting all Christians or Jews with a certain brush regardless of the whack jobs among those religions.

I just don't think you are doing yourself a favour in continuing with Islam=bad. I get it you hate Islam and muslims, but you stop short of saying just that. If you really want to say what is on your mind then do so. OR are you afraid of some retaliation from the group you are calling bad?

I am not scared of Islam, or any other religion. I am scared of some of the nutjobs who hijack a religion for nefarious purposes. So why don't we help the victims instead of simply calling the followers evil or idiots. It is counter productive and actually facilitates more of the same from people like you and that have your view.

All religions are about sumbission. Maybe Islam is not shy about it and says it is so. While Christians, Catholics and Jews don't openly say you have to submit ... oh wait they do. You must surrender yourself to Jesus or whatever god or son of god people are following. They ALL require submission. This is how ALL religions work, and this is how all relgions have worked since their inceptions.

Kind of doing yourself a disservice in buying into the rhetoric.

[DogOnPorch]

What battle? Try to be specific, if you can.

This battle...that Islam is the same as every other religion when at least myself and a few others are willing to say it isn't...like Winston Churchill.

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.

---Churchill: 1899

...

DOP:....But here's a question for you: why do you give an ounce of respect to Islam? Forget some relative excuse about how Christians and Jews are just as bad...why is Islam worth even a glimmer of your respect?

GH: I don't. I just find it funny that you like me do not care for any religion, but you really love to single out one particular one. No religion is worth a glimmer of my respect, wait that is not entirely true. Live and let live. If a certain religion works for someone , who really am I to say otherwise. However, to me they are all delusional in believing in a fairy tale instead of themselves.

Will Islam let you live and let live? Of course not. Islam as an ideology has no interest in becoming part of a rich tapestry of beliefs in any culture. Its mandate is that of the final word on the subject.

But damn dude, all you do for Islam (on the whole instead of focusing on the radical element that is needed) so all Muslims get painted. But yet you have problems with painting all Christians or Jews with a certain brush regardless of the whack jobs among those religions.

Oddly, we don't get a lot of threads started about Judeaism and Christianity the religions/ideologies. Maybe you'll start one.

I just don't think you are doing yourself a favour in continuing with Islam=bad. I get it you hate Islam and muslims, but you stop short of saying just that. If you really want to say what is on your mind then do so. OR are you afraid of some retaliation from the group you are calling bad?

Strawman. Nowhere do I state I hate all Muslims. They should all drop this backwards dark-age cult and join the 21st century.

I am not scared of Islam, or any other religion.

Sure you are. Publish a cartoon with the Big M--- on it and make sure to give your name and address. Many folks of any influence that dare take a poke @ Islam are in for a rude surprise...even here in "safe" old Canada.

I am scared of some of the nutjobs who hijack a religion for nefarious purposes.

When was it hijacked? I hear this term all the time yet Islamic terrorism has been around as long as I've been alive...and apparently as long as ol' Winston was alive, too. So when?

So why don't we help the victims instead of simply calling the followers evil or idiots. It is counter productive and actually facilitates more of the same from people like you and that have your view.

Isn't Canada doing just that in Afghanistan? Helping the 'victims' of so-called radical Islam? I think we even plan a cut n' run in order to help these 'victims' better.

All religions are about sumbission.

Disagree. Christianity is about loving your enemy, for example.

Maybe Islam is not shy about it and says it is so. While Christians, Catholics and Jews don't openly say you have to submit ... oh wait they do. You must surrender yourself to Jesus or whatever god or son of god people are following. They ALL require submission. This is how ALL religions work, and this is how all relgions have worked since their inceptions.

While I asked you to avoid relativism, multiculturalism has served you well. The mosque in my city practices open segregation between men and women. Explain in your own words how allowing women to become 2nd class citizens in Canada is a good thing...avoid relativism if your brain will allow it.

Kind of doing yourself a disservice in buying into the rhetoric.

What rhetoric?

Edited November 19, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[dre]

Fighting the same ol' battle over and over can be tedious. But here's a question for you: why do you give an ounce of respect to Islam? Forget some relative excuse about how Christians and Jews are just as bad...why is Islam worth even a glimmer of your respect?

As a set of beliefs I DONT respect Islam. But Im an individualist as opposed to a collectivist like you. I dont look at muslims as some big monolothic group, and I dont hold any muslim to account for anything except their own actions.

Also... to be honest I really dont know very many of them. They just arent a big factor at all in my life.

[DogOnPorch]

As a set of beliefs I DONT respect Islam. But Im an individualist as opposed to a collectivist like you. I dont look at muslims as some big monolothic group, and I dont hold any muslim to account for anything except their own actions.

Many Muslims do view themselves as a big monolithic group. The term is called "Ummah". The Muslim Nation. Muslim first...nationality second (if that). 1.57 billion people, etc. This is despite any differences between this or that strain of Islam. Individual Muslims can be trotted out to contest this, but the bombs still explode. See the Hirsi Ali video I posted for a better description. I agree with her....sensible.

Re: accountabilty. A dude wants to burn a Koran...the Muslim World has a chicken. Some poor cartoonist in Seattle has thousands of death threats leveled at her for 'Draw Muhammed Day' and the Muslim World is silent. Oh well...that's what you get...that's what you deserve.

Also... to be honest I really dont know very many of them. They just arent a big factor at all in my life.

Enjoy.

[Argus]

There have been violent riots all over the world sparked by those types of stand-offs. Never mind the middle east, theres been worse riots in Vancouver, Montreal and Newyork.

Don't be any sillier than you have to in your desperate quest at making sense of cultural relativity.

A riot in Montreal, Vancouver or New York involves a few busted windows. A riot in much of the barbarian world involves morgues filled with the dead.

[Argus]

who cares if you did.

most muslim women, just like jewish or christian women are not "subject to the threat of honor killing, deprived of any right to drive, to vote etc."

you are spreading lies and trying to defame muslims again, jbg.

Muslims defame themselves. Do you know that the UAE, that paragon of moderate Islam in the middle east recently codified in law how men should beat their wives and children? Yes, they took the old loan shark behaviour of beating someone without leaving marks as the will of God and said that's how it should be done.

Women in Muslim nations, particularly in the Middle East, are largely chattel at the mercy of a culture which sees their only purpose in life as baby breeders.

[Argus]

So? Why should they have to denounce it? I don't have to denounce people every time a Canadian commits a violent act why should Muslims when all they share with the guy committing the violent act is their religion? And of course odds are they share completely different denominations of that religion.

If Canadians were travelling around the world murdering people in the name of Canada I think I might feel a little bit of value in denouncing such behaviour and making sure the world knew it didn't represent me. And I wouldn't be much surprised that the world would grow increasingly suspicious of Canadians if I didn't, and if the violence continued.