Harper blames Israeli stance for UN snub

[Argus]

Well, historically it has been true that the Jewish vote has gone to Liberals, but that has changed under Harper.

Oh really? You have done your research and have a cite to back that up? Less than 1% of the population is Jewish, and they matter in only a handful of ridings, and only a couple of those ridings are in contention - ie, are up for grabs between the tories and liberals.

A fairly horrible and bigoted statement to suggest that most Muslims despise Israel and Jews.

Why? Have you met a lot who are admirers of Israel? I don't think many here even on the left would argue that most Muslims actively dislike Israel. You might find an argument they don't hate Jews, but in my experience, the Muslim population here is as unsophisticated socially and culturally as the nations they came from, and tend to reflect the anti-semitism which is so widespread in those cultures.

Certainly it has been the experience in other nations that as the number of Muslim immigrants rises so too does anti-semitism and hate crimes. There are places in Europe now where Jews are not safe to walk the streets, and are fleeing - places like France and Sweden - because of Muslim violence directed against them.

"There are now twice as many Muslims in Canada as there are Jews."

Yes, but they don't participate in the political process nearly as much as Jews.

That's irrelevant. They are a natural group for Harper to want to court and organize if he was of a mind. They tend to be extremely conservative on social issues, and lack much sympathy for spendthrift ways by government. Why then do most still vote Liberal?

Because of Israel.

[Argus]

Nice try Argus, but you can't have it both ways.

Either Israel and Jews are intertwined or they are not.

Harper, the CJC, and B'Nai Brith have all been suggesting that an attack on Israel, is an attack on Jews.

You know, it's funny, but I don't have a clue what the CJC or B'nai Brith have to say about Israel. I have to wonder why you do? Why are you obsessed with this one tiny country where you clearly have no particular interest in human rights anywhere else?

Let's put it this way. If all Israelis were Muslims, there would be no attacks on Israel. In fact, Israel would be courted and toasted as the most western oriented, most sophisticated, most open and moderate society in the Muslim world.

So, you can not now seperate the two, to suggest that a pro-Israel policy is not likely to win Jewish votes, and call it anti-semitism. It is intellectually dishonest,

Except there is no evidence that Jews in Canada are overly influenced by how a party behaves towards Israel. The Jews in Canada voted heavily for Trudeau and Chretien despite their "neutral" behaviour, and despite the fact the Conservatives were much more pro-Israel during that entire time. Unlike the vast majority of Muslims in Canada, the Jews are almost all multi-generation Canadians, and they worry more about economic and social moves here in Canada. Virtually all adult Muslims in Canada are the products of third world countries and retain the anti Israel attitudes of those societies. They didn't immigrate to Canada because they hated their homeland and their home societies. They came here to get more money, to have bigger houses, to take advantage of a sophisticated western capitalist economy and society.

There is simply no reason to suspect they have rejected the societies, the cultures, the notions which surrounded them from birth to the day they emigrated. And those tend to be violently anti-Israel and anti-Jewish.

[Argus]

I see, Canada didn't get elected because there are gay hating, misogynistic, anti-jew countries like Germany and Portugal around

The way these things generally work is that the nations of a particular area agree on who is going to be the representatives of that area prior to the vote. This leaves the general assembly with little to do but approve the pre-selected members. This time around, the Europeans wanted another European member, not Canada, which is still seen as too American. So they insisted on putting up too many candidates, necessitating an actual vote. Once it was thrown open to a real vote the Muslim block, which is obsessed with Israel - which cares about little or nothing in the world but Israel - were able to vote Canada down.

and I hope I'm not the only one capable of realizing that one doesn't have to support either side in this israel palistine affair

Would you be neutral towards a man who regularly beats his wife because she sometimes hits him back?

[Argus]

Alright, it was Cotler, not Harper.

I can't stand Ignatieff and don't intend to vote Liberal until they remove him.

In Ireland, there was a terrorist group (Sinn Fein) who decided to become part of the legal process for change. They were supported in this, and no longer operate as a terrorist entity. The world could have tried to do the same with Hamas, but instead we chose to be morally righteous and 'refuse to negotiate with terrorists',

Sinn Fein was not a terrorist group. Jesus, where do you get this crap? They were associated with a terrorist group, but they were always the political wing, the people into negotiations. Further, there are terrorists and then there are terrorists. The IRA, for the most part, refrained from murdering non-combatants. Don't get me wrong. I'm not excusing them. They were scum. And they certainly did kill non-combatants. But mostly, they targeted cops and soldiers. And they never were fanatics who engaged in the kind of hideous mass murders we see coming from Muslim terrorist groups.

[Argus]

I'm absolutely amazed how Israel not only whitewashes the killing of children on a fairly large scale, but also villainizes anyone who finds fault with the killing of innocent children.

You don't have any problem with the killing of children. You only have a problem when Jews do it.

[Keepitsimple]

You don't have any problem with the killing of children. You only have a problem when Jews do it.

As Golda Meir said: "There will be no peace until they love their children more than they hate us."

[AngusThermopyle]

Come on Argus. Don't you know those freedom fighting child loving suicide murderers use the special non child killing bomb vests?

[Keepitsimple]

This is what i thought at first too, but after some thought I'm really a bit skeptical. Politicians, especially those on our Hill, don't often take tough/controversial "principled" stands on issues unless it is somehow to their political gain to do so.

I'm honestly torn. And when it comes to politics, when in doubt, err on the side of politicians being lying power-hungry sacks of crap.

If you can see the political benefit of alienating Muslim voters who outnumber Jewish voters by at least 2 to 1, please let me know. In addition, the Jewish population in Canada is declining while the Muslim population is skyrocketing. To top it off, Jewish voters have overwhelmingly supported the Liberal Party so there will only be limited movement as a result of the Conservatives' more robust defense of Israel. So in summary - win over a few Jewish voters at the expense of alienating most, if not all Muslims? Show me the vote-grabbing in that. Seems like standing on principle to me.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[KeyStone]

Most certainly. He doubts both the numbers murdered and the manner in which it happened. When I hear 'Holocaust', I think around 5-6 million dead Jews (plus a million or so others)...murdered by shooting/gassing/starving/medical experiments/typhoid inducing conditions/etc. Don't you?

Sure, that's what I think, but I get my info from books and movies. I haven't researched it or gone to Auschwitz.

But there is a big difference doubting, and saying he doesn't know. Furthermore, questioning the numbers does not make him a holocaust denier. It would seem he agrees there is a holocaust but is unclear on the details.

[KeyStone]

Show me where Israel has launched a full scale invasion of its neighbours'lands.

Show me where Israel has deliberately targeted civilians. As I said, sometimes there's collateral damage. That is NOT the same as deliberately targeting innocents!

Show me an example of an Israeli suicide bomber.

Show me an video clip of Israelis beheading a Palestinian prisoner with a knife!

If you believe that the two cultures are morally equivalent then I'm afraid you and I have no common ground on this issue. Targeting innocents to me is the mark of animals, not human beings.

Wild Bill, let me give you a hockey analogy.

Tie Domi instigates and throws the first punch.

Brashear then takes off the gloves, and pummels Domi into the ground, breaking his nose, and fracturing his collar bone in the process.

Now, we can point out that Brashear never started the fight and is therefore different than Domi, but the fact remains that both players deserve penalties, and that Brashear used disproportionate force in his response.

In the ongoing conflict, we can agree that Israel conducts itself better than the Palestinians, and we can agree that Israel respects human rights more than Palestine, but neither of those facts means that Israel is blameless nor does it justify every action that Israel does against Palestine.

[DogOnPorch]

Sure, that's what I think, but I get my info from books and movies. I haven't researched it or gone to Auschwitz.

But there is a big difference doubting, and saying he doesn't know. Furthermore, questioning the numbers does not make him a holocaust denier. It would seem he agrees there is a holocaust but is unclear on the details.

Why trust the Germans, afterall...

[KeyStone]

This is bullshit, of course. It is the kind of excuse making nonsense liberals write in discomfort at their own illogical and immoral positions.

The Roma are under threat? Gays are under threat? How many armed organizations around the world have pledged the death of Roma or Gays in the last few years? How many murderous terrorist attacks have been carried out against Roma and Gays? How many world religious leaders have vowed to destroy the Roma or homosexuals? How many nations are trying to acquire nuclear weapons to use against the Roma?

In point of fact, the only places where gays are under threat from anything other than drunken rednecks - is in the Muslim world. Saudi Arabia alone executed 18 people for homosexuality last year. Yet where are the legions of liberals ranting against the Saudis? Where are all the indignant postings from you oh-so-concerned human rights campaigners about Saudi Arabia's treatment of women, or for that matter, Iran's?

Simply because those groups are not under threat in the way you describe does not mean that they are not under threat. The Roma were also a victim of Nazi Germany, still have no homeland, and are under constant persecution in pretty much every country where they exist in large numbers.

Homosexuals are killed throughout the world, often in Muslim countries, but also in North America and other countries.

Incidentally, I bitch about Saudi Arabia all the time, simply because there is a disconnect between what a vile regime they have, and the amount of negative media they receive. One thing that you will find about Western media, as long as they nation buys Western goods in sufficient quantity, they are often given a pass by the media. Saudi Arabia routinely ferrets out terrorists and kills them - of course, and the media says nothing. Of course, these terrorists are simply people wanting a revoltion in Saudi Arabia - because they are tired of a multi-generational dictatorship lining its pockets with the oil wealth of the nation. No other nation is that egregious in the way its rulers abuse the wealth of the land, and yet we say nothing. Iran is leap years ahead of Saudi Arabia, and yet they are continually vilified for every misstep.

Incidentally, there are no nations trying to acquire nuclear weapons to destroy Israel either. It's all made up on the basis of a few misinterpreted sentences.

[KeyStone]

"Kill the Jews wherever you find them--this pleases God, history, and religion." Grand Mufti of Jerusalem during WW2, described as a hero of the Arab people by Yasser Arafat

Go sit in the corner with Dog on Porch if you are going to bring up the Mufti conspiracy again. Let's try to stick with present day as opposed to what some dead guy said about some other guy who has been dead every longer.

If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, leader of Hezbollah

Alright, this is significant. Or, at least it would be if the quote could actually be verified. Since, there is only one alleged witness of him every saying this, we can hardly use this as proof irrefutable that Hezbollah wants all Jews around the world killed.

Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president of Iran, has threatened Israel with nuclear destruction, boasting that an attack would kill as many as five million Jews. Rafsanjani estimated that even if Israel retaliated by dropping its own nuclear bombs, Iran would probably lose only fifteen million people, which he said would be a small "sacrifice" from among the billion Muslims in the world.

Curious how you arbitrarily decided not to use the full quote this time. Could it be that the full quote which puts it in proper context, doesnt' really support your argument? This reeks of intellectual dishonesty. Here is the full quote:

"If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world", Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani told the crowd at the traditional Friday prayers in Tehran."

Not really the same thing as what you have paraphrased, now is it?

[Saipan]

In the ongoing conflict, we can agree that Israel conducts itself better than the Palestinians, and we can agree that Israel respects human rights more than Palestine, but neither of those facts means that Israel is blameless nor does it justify every action that Israel does against Palestine.

1) Israel can be blamed for trying to survive, surrounded by gigantic terrorist sea.

2) Palestine is the old name of Israel. Arabs in Israel are Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians, as they themself claimed not long ago. Yasar Arafat was Egyptian also. "Palestinians" are recently invented nation to be used against Israel.

[DogOnPorch]

keystone: Go sit in the corner with Dog on Porch if you are going to bring up the Mufti conspiracy again. Let's try to stick with present day as opposed to what some dead guy said about some other guy who has been dead every longer.

He's a conspiracy now? Why those dirty Jews...making up the Holocaust 'n sh*t.

[DogOnPorch]

1) Israel can be blamed for trying to survive, surrounded by gigantic terrorist sea.

2) Palestine is the old name of Israel. Arabs in Israel are Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians, as they themself claimed not long ago. Yasar Arafat was Egyptian also. "Palestinians" are recently invented nation to be used against Israel.

Arafat was also Mr Mufti's nephew.

[KeyStone]

One wonders what motivates so many critical voices of Israel around the world given the undeniable fact that many, many, many other governments make worse, more consistent violations of human rights and yet escape their notice entirely.

Israel is one small nation beset by war. Bad things happen in war. What excuses the horrific human rights abuses in North Korea or Saudi Arabia - which you probably have never even given a thought to? What excuses the brutality, murder and slave labour camps in China, which supplies you with half the stuff in your house? And which you never pay any attention to? Why are there dozens and dozens of UN resolutions against Israel every year but none against Russia for what it's done in Chechnya?

Maybe it's simply because Israel is full of Jews.

Ahhh, one of the most common Israeli apologist responses.

Because Israel gets more criticism than other regimes, those singling her out, must be anti-semitic.

There are some unique behaviours in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

The most important difference is that Israel's incursions take place outside of Israel and they inflict cruelty on non-Israelis.

Yes, there are worse regimes in the world, but they inflict cruelties on their own people, and so the international body has ruled it an internal conflict (unless genocide is occuring).

Secondly, Israel wants a seat at the table of respectability which means that they are being held to a different level. If they want their behaviour held up to that of Al-Qaeda any of the various opressive regimes in the world, than they should be entitled to no more respect than those regimes. If, on the other hand they want to be treated like Canada or Sweden, them they need to hold themselves to a similar level of conduct.

Thirdly, Israel's army of spin doctors keeps putting themselves on the front pages, telling us half-truths, and exerting its considerable influence over Canadian politicians. If Israel doesn't want the attention, then stop getting your supporters to write op-ed columns, about how great Israel is.

[Saipan]

Yes.

The Mufti and the Führer

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

[KeyStone]

Oh really? You have done your research and have a cite to back that up? Less than 1% of the population is Jewish, and they matter in only a handful of ridings, and only a couple of those ridings are in contention - ie, are up for grabs between the tories and liberals.

If you think that voting is the only way Israeli supporters can influence the election, you are a bigger fool than I thought.

Why? Have you met a lot who are admirers of Israel? I don't think many here even on the left would argue that most Muslims actively dislike Israel.

I think if you're going to make a gross generalized bigoted statement, the onus is you to support that, not me to refute it.

In your words: "Oh really? You have done your research and have a cite [sic] to back that up? "

That's irrelevant. They are a natural group for Harper to want to court and organize if he was of a mind. They tend to be extremely conservative on social issues, and lack much sympathy for spendthrift ways by government. Why then do most still vote Liberal?

How could their influence, participation and organization possibly be irrelevant, when we are discussing whether or not it might be to Harper's political advantage to support Israel? Besides which, you are making gross generalizations about the Jewish people. The fact is I don't know if Jewish voters vote for the Conservatives or Liberals and I suspect you don't either.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Secondly, Israel wants a seat at the table of respectability....If, on the other hand they want to be treated like Canada or Sweden, them they need to hold themselves to a similar level of conduct.

This does not logically follow, as Israel does not have military forces deployed half way around the world killing the locals, occupying territory, or reforming the government. Israel actually has a credible threat on its border(s). Tell us about Canada and the level again.

[Oleg Bach]

USED to think that all blind people were saints - that all Jews were holy - apparently they are like everyone else - good ones and bad ones ...There is a scandal that has just taken place - corrupt Jews were sending huge damage claims to holocaust survivors who were NOT the real deal..about 20 million bucks went missing because of this scam out of New York...Looks like the Jews are just like the rest of us..including Malroney the second rate brown envelope arms dealer...who's son stands up and preaches at Free The Children conventions...mean while he is the spawn of a war mongering s0b...Oh and by the way - I did not remember that it was REMEMBERANCE day..

But after watching a docu-drama regarding the signing of the peace treaty in 1918 - I realized that war was all about this...."Hans.....Yes Albert...wonder what it would be like to kill a few million people and turn a profit?" - "well lets try it"........................... War is the duping of millions to satisfy the egos of a few.

[DogOnPorch]

This does not logically follow, as Israel does not have military forces deployed half way around the world killing the locals, occupying territory, or reforming the government. Israel actually has a credible threat on its border(s). Tell us about Canada and the level again.

Heheh...

[KeyStone]

You know, it's funny, but I don't have a clue what the CJC or B'nai Brith have to say about Israel. I have to wonder why you do?

Because I read the news. Also, I get their e-mails forwarded to me by some Jewish friends who are less blind in their support of Israel.

Why are you obsessed with this one tiny country where you clearly have no particular interest in human rights anywhere else?

Now, you're just being an idiot. I can not follow and discuss every nation and conflict on the planet. Israel certainly gets its share of news - mostly good, but some bad in Western media. So, it is an easy area to follow. I would much rather discuss Venezuela and/or Saudi Arabia, but there is less coverage and less people to debate.

Let's put it this way. If all Israelis were Muslims, there would be no attacks on Israel. In fact, Israel would be courted and toasted as the most western oriented, most sophisticated, most open and moderate society in the Muslim world.

Interesting, of course, if all Israelis were Muslims, they probably wouldn't have felt a need to displace all of the Muslims from Israel when they moved in. Then the Muslim nations wouldn't have needed to invade Israel, so Israel wouldn't have occupied territories. But, you are still partially right. Many of the Muslim nations against Israel care far less about helping the Palestinians than they do about removing the infidel Jews from the holy lands.

Except there is no evidence that Jews in Canada are overly influenced by how party behaves towards Israel. The Jews in Canada voted heavily for Trudeau and Chretien despite their "neutral" behaviour, and despite the fact the Conservatives were much more pro-Israel during that entire time. Unlike the vast majority of Muslims in Canada, the Jews are almost all multi-generation Canadians, and they worry more about economic and social moves here in Canada.

Well, then it's a gamble by Harper, or his pro-Israel sentiments are really just masking his Islamopohbia.

Perhaps all support of Israel, is really Islamophobia. I mean, why else would this tiny country with a nebulous regard for human rights and international law get such positive attention.

Virtually all adult Muslims in Canada are the products of third world countries and retain the anti Israel attitudes of those societies. There is simply no reason to suspect they have rejected the societies, the cultures, the notions which surrounded them from birth to the day they emigrated. And those tend to be violently anti-Israel and anti-Jewish.

Huge gross generalizations with no supporting evidence once again.

[KeyStone]

Come on Argus. Don't you know those freedom fighting child loving suicide murderers use the special non child killing bomb vests?

Those must be produced by the same people that supply the IDF with the special non child killing missiles.

Oh, I forgot. The children aren't really dead, as long as the 'intention' was to get a terrorist.

[Oleg Bach]

BETWEEN the Mulahs and the Bankers..it seems they are having all the fun...and people blowing themselves up must amuse them.