Harper blames Israeli stance for UN snub

[Guest TrueMetis]

But not specifically about the Jews...correct?

Has anyone ever actually claimed the holocaust was specifically about the Jews?

[Bob]

They started that way yes, until November 14, 1935 when they where extended. So for 2 months it was for only Jews.

link

Read your own link, for heaven's sake. The last paragraph specifically states that only the marriage component of the Nuremberg laws were extended to other persecuted groups. Why are you so obstinate in your pursuit of this disinformation campaign to equate the focus of the Holocaust's persecution of my people to other groups, when it is so obviously untrue?

Anyone with the screen-name TrueMetis certainly has no connection to the Holocaust. Your comments, beyond that, make me more than comfortable in my assumptions. I stand by my statement that my knowledge of the Holocaust, which is directly the result of my personal connection to it, eclipses yours.

[DogOnPorch]

Has anyone ever actually claimed the holocaust was specifically about the Jews?

Well, Reinhard Heydrich...but what does he know...

[Bob]

Has anyone ever actually claimed the holocaust was specifically about the Jews?

That's what you're trying to imply, that somehow the persecution of other groups such as the Roma was equal to that of my people. It's untrue, and it is creepy how vigorously you are trying to advance this falsehood. So far, we've seen an irrelevant link to identity armbands warn by prisoners within concentration camps (when I was talking about identifiers such as the yellow star being worn by Jews across Nazi-occupied Europe), and a link to the USHMM which you yourself misunderstood. Get real.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Read your own link, for heaven's sake. The last paragraph specifically states that only the marriage component of the Nuremberg laws were extended to other persecuted groups. Why are you so obstinate in your pursuit of this disinformation campaign to equate the focus of the Holocaust's persecution of my people to other groups, when it is so obviously untrue?

So they could still employ German women in there household and bear the Reich flag. Except it was unlikely they would do either of these things considering Romani had been getting persecuted for so long before that.

My link

The Nuremberg Laws

Anyone with the screen-name TrueMetis certainly has no connection to the Holocaust. Your comments, beyond that, make me more than comfortable in my assumptions. I stand by my statement that my knowledge of the Holocaust, which is directly the result of my personal connection to it, eclipses yours.

Everyone has some connection to the Holocaust.

[Bob]

Everyone has some connection to the Holocaust.

Not really. Either way, and somewhat ironically, this is yet another example of you implying total equivalencies based on some commonalities. So, just as Roma were persecuted by the Nazis and collaborators, it wasn't the same degree of intensity as the persecution that was directed to my people. So, although you're stating you have a connection to the Holocaust, it's not the same as my connection to it. Of course, in your view, we can't discuss such things as the degree of our connectedness to the Holocaust isn't quantifiable. Are you now beginning to see the silliness of your earlier statements? I'm seriously not trying to be rude or disparaging, I'm just trying to be as clear as possible.

Having something(s) in common isn't the same as total equivalence.

[bloodyminded]

More Jews died, everything else is unquantifiable. Seriously how do you quantify intensity, viciousness, or a more intricate level?

Intensity and viciousness aside, the intricacies are established. The murders of other groups, while part of policy, was not of the same focus; they simply weren't considered the same threat as Jews, and didn't have the type of identifiable cohesion as a group that would make such focus neceesary to the murderers.

Raul Hilberg, the man consistently credited with creating the very field of Holocaust Studies, wrote extensively of this focus. Of primary importance is a book I haven't read, but plan to: The Destruction of the European Jews. Evidently, this is a forensic account, a groundbreaking study of the minutia of the Nazi policies towards the Jews (including how they quickly changed over time, becoming increasingly murderous: apparently, it's like watching genuine violent psychosis bloom, and I don't doubt it.)

Just incidentally--though I'm not sure if this really matters--if it's sourcing you're concerned about, Hilberg was famously cranky and contentious, with no patience for "victimology," and remained critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. He even came to the spoken and written defense of Norm Finkelstein, who is considered quite extremely radical and "anti-Israel" by his critics.

At any rate, this "Dean of Holocaust Studies" cannot be easily dismissed.

Edited November 14, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Guest TrueMetis]

Not really. Either way, and somewhat ironically, this is yet another example of you implying total equivalencies based on some commonalities. So, just as Roma were persecuted by the Nazis and collaborators, it wasn't the same degree of intensity as the persecution that was directed to my people. So, although you're stating you have a connection to the Holocaust, it's not the same as my connection to it. Of course, in your view, we can't discuss such things as the degree of our connectedness to the Holocaust isn't quantifiable. Are you now beginning to see the silliness of your earlier statements? I'm seriously not trying to be rude or disparaging, I'm just trying to be as clear as possible.

Having something(s) in common isn't the same as total equivalence.

It's probably best we don't continue this discussion, we aren't going to agree.

[jbg]

Intensity and viciousness aside, the intricacies are established. The murders of other groups, while part of policy, was not of the same focus; they simply weren't considered the same threat as Jews, and didn't have the type of identifiable cohesion as a group that would make such focus neceesary to the murderers.

Raul Hilberg, the man consistently credited with creating the very field of Holocaust Studies, wrote extensively of this focus. Of primary importance is a book I haven't read, but plan to: The Destruction of the European Jews.

*****************

At any rate, this "Dean of Holocaust Studies" cannot be easily dismissed.

You and I rarely agree but I have great praise for this post. It is a true "reaching across the aisle". Thanks.

[KeyStone]

Did you know that over 20,000 French civilians were killed during the D-Day invasions, mostly as a result of allied bombing and shelling? War doesn't leave a lot of room for safety for civilians. It's unfortunate, but that's not the same thing as deliberately planning, organizing, and arranging for a naive, guileless young man to go into a pizza shop full of teenagers and blow himself and them up.

This isn't war. As much as Israel likes to claim that it is fighting for its very survival, it simply isn't true.

The few deaths attributed by rockets, don't come close to the number of Israelis killed in car accidents.

Do Israelis live in constant fear of driving? Do they make driving illegal? Do people make grand statements about the auto threatening the very existence of Israel?

How many Israelis were killed by rockets in 2010? Answer: 0

How many Israelis were killed by suicide bombers in 2010? Answer: 0

Yet, Israel still feels it has the right to continue to build new settlements, pursue terrorists in the occupied territories regardless of civilian casualties and deny basic supplies to the occupied territories.

The Palestinians have two options, as Israel continues to deny them the basics of life.

1) Do nothing. Result: Israel will continue as they are - continually pushing them into the sea.

2) Talk to the UN. Result: US will veto any resolutions in favour of the Palestinians including examining the conditions.

3) Physically Protest: Israel will engage in collective punishment, and use the actions to justify further military action, and denial of rights.

[KeyStone]

That is the emotional response, but lacks logic. The major cause of the Palestinians' difficulties is the Palestinians' behaviour. Why is there a wall in place? Because the Palestinians suicide bombers were blowing themselves up every time they could find more than a half dozen Israelis standing together. Why is unemployment so high among them? Because Palestinian workers were attacking and murdering random Israelis. Oh yes, not all of them by any means, but the attacks happened often enough and seemed to enjoy such broad public support among Palestinians that now nobody wants to employ Palestinians and it's almost impossible for them to get through the screening to get to work every day. Why have the Israelis put a stranglehold on goods going into Palestinian territory? Because of the rockets and mortars which keep being fired into Israel.

Have you actually taken a look at what is banned from coming into the Palestinian territory?

In addition to weapons, and dual-use items, they also ban items such as chocolate, and jam, pretty much anything that could be used to help develop business and education.

So, from a cursory glance, it would appear that they are trying to make life in the occupied territories as miserable as possible. They can't rebuild after Israel bombs. They can't have so-called luxury items, they can't create business, or educate their youth properly.

[KeyStone]

Would you care to elaborate on who exactly composes this Jewish lobby, and then please demonstrate to us this "power" that is wielded by this lobby. Please and thank you.

Happy to Bob

The lobby consists of a number of organizations such as B'Nai Brith, Canadian Jewish Congress, Jewish Defense League. There are others, but those are the main ones.

Now then, as for the influence that they wield, it's difficult to measure. One way would be to catalog and reference all the pandering to Israel that Canadian politicians do.

Another would be to look at committees in parliament aimed at preventing hate, and see which groups Canada is aiming to protect? Hint: it isn't homosexuals, homeless people, or women.

Another would be to see what motions are being passed in various governments aimed at stifling free speech and the right to assemble: Hint: apparently the word apartheid is hateful. (as is most criticism of Israel).

But perhaps one of the most interesting studies, can be found here:

2. “Ranking of DEA Officials of Weight of Inputs (influence) in the Making of Canadian Foreign Policy” (scale of 1 to 7) from a study by John Kirton and Peyton Lyon in the Journal of Canadian Studies, winter, 1992-3.

Group Influence Ranking

Canadian Jewish Community 5.85

Prime Minister 5.04

DEA 5.04

Israel 4.92

Cabinet 4.68

United States 4.68

Media 4.24

Public opinion 3.58

Business 2.92

United Nations 2.84

Arab States 2.76

Dept. of National Defence 2.58

Other allies 2.5

Dept. of Finance 1.88

Arab/Canadian community 1.8

PLO 1.52

Provinces 1.2

[KeyStone]

All we must do is look at contemporary history. Without even going into the trials and tribulations my people endured in many parts of the world, we can examine Israel's history. Aside from wars of aggression waged against Israel by its enemies which sought Israel's destruction (or at least severe damage and casualties) in '48, '54, '67, '73, '82,

I think we both know Bob, that Israel's military capability has advanced far beyond that of all its Arab and Persian neighbours combined. There have been no serious threats to the sovereignty of Israel for some time now.

Jews are still being murdered and injured because they are Jewish.

Yes, largely because of Israel's actions and the constant attempt of Israeli apologists to make Israel and Jews one of the same, by using such verbage as the Jewish state of Israel, and Israel, the eternal Jewish homeland. There is no other nation on the planet that seeks to intertwine its religion into its identity as much as Israel does.

While this does not make it right that Jews who have nothing to do with the conflict are targeted, it does need to be recognized that those intending to protect Israel from criticism, also assist in endangering the Jewish people.

Furthermore, there are many different peoeples around the world killed for their identity - their skin colour, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation. This is not unique to Jews.

We are not exaggerating these threats.

Well actually, there is a good deal of exaggeration going on these days. The various Jewish lobby groups continue to tell us that incidents of anti-semitism are rising dramatically in Canada. What they fail to tell us that an incident of anti-semitism may consist of someone saying 'I Hate Jews' on the internet, or saying 'you stupid Jew' to a kid on the street. We are not talking about swastikas on the side of a house, or synagogues getting firebombed. This is what kids do - they make fun of eachother for being black. hispanic, short, having greasy hair, not having cool enough sneakers, having a stutter etc. Let's not package it all together, in an attempt to make it seem as if each walk to the corner store is death-defying.

On the other hand, people like yourself are telling us that Ahmedinejad isn't anti-Semitic although he openly engages in Holocaust-denial and supports virulently anti-Semitic terrorist groups publicly and secretly.

There is no question that Ahmadinejad is anti-semitic. That is clear, and I have never said otherwise. I have said that he has never suggested destroying all of the Jews or Israel. Yes, I know about the vanish from the pages of time quote, which he has since clarified.

Lastly, you have no idea how much sacrifice the Jewish people and Israel have made towards protecting against these threats.

Tell them to go over to Gaza, and tell the people there, the sad story of the sacrifices they have made.

If it wasn't for these constant threats and attacks and wars, the standard of living would be much higher here. We'd all have bigger apartments and houses and drive newer and fancier cars and have nicer electronics and appliances and more expensive clothes. You don't get that. Hopefully, after my response, you can appreciate this a bit more.

You have to go back to Israeli apologist school, if you think I am going to feel sorry for the child-murdering IDF because they can't bigger houses, fancier cars, and nicer clothes. If it wasn't for the constant bombing, invasions, blockades and settlements, the Palestinians would be able to be alive, learn how to read, and not suffer from malnutrition.

The threats against Israel and the Jewish people aren't imagined or overexaggerated.

Not over-exaggerated, just exaggerated.

If anything, these threats and attacks and associated costs are underappreciated by people such as yourself, thousands of kilometres away from the scene, with barely any knowledge about this conflict, with no stake whatsoever in it, telling us we're overreacting and that we need to calm down.

Gosh, you're right Bob. Kill as many Palestinians as you need to.

We need to make sure that you get those fancy cars, big apartments, and nice clothes.

While you are at it, make sure you actively recruit more Jews to move to Israel, so that you have an excuse to push the Palestinians all the way into the sea.

[KeyStone]

Let's get one thing clear. No one, except some very sick individuals, have made a career out of killing gays. No one ties gays into groups of three, shoots one and pushes the other two into a freezing river.

Nothing aimed at gays has equalled the savagery of the persecution of Jews culminating in the Holocaust. This reasoning which creates a phony equivalence is nauseating.

Spare me your histrionics.

I never said these things were exactly equal.

I said that other groups face persecution and have their lives threatened around the globe.

More people around the world are killed for being homosexual (mostly in Arab/Persian) countries than for being Jewish.

[Bonam]

More people around the world are killed for being homosexual (mostly in Arab/Persian) countries than for being Jewish.

Mostly cause about 99%+ of the Jews that lived in Arab areas have fled over the last 6 decades. In some Arab and Muslim countries which once had substantial Jewish communities, literally zero Jews remain. Take a look at Afghanistan, and its ONE last jew, for example.

[KeyStone]

I was going to say something similar, but I didn't have the patience last night to get into it. KeyStone's MO seems pretty transparent at this point. I reserved judgement when I initially read the OP, but as I read his or her subsequent posts, the intention of this thread and this poster became quite clear to me.

My intention is to show the other story instead of accepting at face value, the Israeli apologist version of events.

Your intention seems quite transparent and commonplace.

Let me sum up your position:

1) Israel is always right. Palestine, Arabs, and Iran are always wrong.

2) The only possible way someone could find fault with Israel is if they hate Jews.

3) Arabs are evil. Persians are evil. Israel and Jews are good.

Clearly this is yet another attempt to marginalize the history of my people, as well as to denigrate and to demonize Israel.

The history of the Jews has been well documented. I'm ignoring Egypt and biblical claims, and focusing more on the Holocaust and more recent events. Yes, it was tragic and horrific and among the worst crimes humanity has ever seen. No, that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to destroy anyone who they perceive as a threat to themselves, nor does it justify the collective punishment that they are administering on the Palestinian people.

From the obscure references to the "Jewish lobby" in Canada and their (our?) imagined power and influence (we're the most powerful lobby group in Canada!),

Please tell me who you think the most powerful lobby group is in Canada then? In the US, it's the NRA. I know it's easy to dismiss all mention of Jewish influence as conspiracy theory, but their influence can not be denied and Canadian polticians are all too aware of it. There is nothing veiled. I've been quite up front about the power and influence of Jewish lobby groups.

to the making light of the threats against the Jewish people and our homeland,

When anti-semitic incidents are up threefold because Jewish Canadians are encouraged to report each time they see someone say something bad about Jews on the internet, yeah, I think the threat is overblown. And no, I don't think that Jews outside of Israel are the most persecuted people in the world, despite what we keep being told.

to actually questioning the guilt of Samir Kuntar.

If he did indeed kill a small child with the butt of his rifle, he is reprehensible. But, the alleged evidence was classified until thirty years after. There is something suspicious. Of course, when you believe that Jews always tell the truth and Arabs always lie, as most Islamophobes do, you see no reason to question the peculiar events around the trial.

Edited November 15, 2010 by KeyStone

[Saipan]

I've been quite up front about the power and influence of Jewish lobby groups.

How many times can each Jew vote?

I don't think that Jews outside of Israel are the most persecuted people in the world, despite what we keep being told.

Hmmm, who was exterminated more? Never mind persecuted.

Of course, when you believe that Jews always tell the truth and Arabs always lie, as most Islamophobes do

Most Islamofascist believe the opposite.

[myata]

Well, he has to blame it on something.. or somebody? Not like it could be a direct and logical result of his own policies!

[KeyStone]

How many times can each Jew vote?

I know you are not exactly a political scholar, but surely even you must realize there are more ways to influence an election than just voting.

Hmmm, who was exterminated more? Never mind persecuted.

Let see,

Many First nations were completely exterminated by European settlers.

In the Gulags, it is estimated that twenty million died (mostly Ukrainians).

About 250,000 Roma died in the holocaust or 25%. While this is not as many as the Jews, their persecution continues to this day. They still have no homeland, and continue to be driven out by nations such as France and Italy who create racist laws specifically targeting the Roma.

The point is that there is no specific formula to determine what group has been persecuted the most, nor is there a way to determine how much past persecution should influence present protections. Therefore, the claim that Jewish people are the most persecuted, and should therefore be provided with special protections, including protection from having the Jewish nation criticized is flawed.

Most Islamofascist believe the opposite.

Good, you are starting to recognize the parallels then.

[DogOnPorch]

-About 1-2 million died in the Gulags...not 20 million.

-The Holomodor was mass starvation brought on by the effects of Communist collectivization of the farms. Between 2-10 million died depending on the source. The rest of the Soviet Union also suffered from famine and Stalin's Great Purge.

-Romania is the defacto heartland of the Roma. Roma are often treated poorly as they generally refuse to integrate into societies they migrate to. Perhaps let a dozen camp out on your front lawn for a month and you'll know how France feels.

-Nothing like Treblinka or Sobibor existed in regards to other groups affected by the Holocaust. Babi Yar didn't have signs ordering Roma, JWs, and homosexuals to gather with their belongings. Just the Jews. Several hundred non-Jews were executed, mind you...

Kikes of the city of Kiev and vicinity! On Monday, September 29, you are to appear by 08:00 a.m. with your possessions, money, documents, valuables, and warm clothing at Dorogozhitskaya Street, next to the Jewish cemetery. Failure to appear is punishable by death.

[Jack Weber]

If we are simply talking body count...

The African slave trade killed just as many...It was just over a longer period of time...

I'd submit that Chairman Mao killed as many of his own through idiotic agricultural and industrial policies than any NAZI concentration camp...The difference being that Mao's intention(I don't believe) was to exterminate everyone in sight that prayed slightly diferently,or looked slightly different...

[DogOnPorch]

Jack: If we are simply talking body count...

As you well know, Antietam was quite the body count...and had you and I been there, it probably would have seemed like the worst darn't event in the history of the planet.

Pvt. Dog: Tarnation! Can't get much worse than this (minie ball knocks off hat).

Pvt. Jack: Lord sakes! The war to end all wars. Man'll never fight again!

The African slave trade killed just as many...It was just over a longer period of time...

Agreement. Plus colonial activities in the Belgian Congo I think it was...horrible casualties.

I'd submit that Chairman Mao killed as many of his own through idiotic agricultural and industrial policies than any NAZI concentration camp...The difference being that Mao's intention(I don't believe) was to exterminate everyone in sight that prayed slightly diferently,or looked slightly different...

Mao and gang: Great poster art, though.

http://www.iisg.nl/landsberger/

Edited November 16, 2010 by DogOnPorch