Gordon Campbell Resigns

[bill_barilko]

I think three back-to-back elections bred a certain overconfidence, a certain self-righteousness and an incredible amount of arrogance.

I know a veteran media relations type who's done a lot of work for the Campbell govt over the years-he was stunned at just that arrogance-literally shaking his head in disbelief and unable to explain it in anything like his usual smooth operator style.

[jbg]

One down, two to go, McGuinty and Harper.

At least you through McGuinty in there. I'm surprised you'd be so honest.

[jbg]

Slight correction. The caucus meeting was for Thursday. It's pretty obvious that Campbell must have known what has been rumored for the last few days, that he was walking into a revolt. Even if he had survived that, he would not have survived the leadership review later this month.

Sounds almost Australian? Or like what happened to Thatcher?

[jbg]

I wonder if he'll go back on the bottle.

Back in 2003 I had some legal business out that way. I used Drinkem, Drunkem and Drivem, a law firm two of whose partners were Gordon Campbell and Ralph Klein.

[Wilber]

Sounds almost Australian? Or like what happened to Thatcher?

Yup, that's how our system works.

[dre]

Nice to see Gord the Blade slit his own throat!

First usefull thing the guys ever done!

[Moonlight Graham]

It boggles my mind that Ontario residents haven't put the heat on McGuinty like BC has with Campbell re: the HST and a myriad of other b.s.. I wish McGuinty were gone.

[bill_barilko]

Back in 2003 I had some legal business out that way. I used Drinkem, Drunkem and Drivem, a law firm two of whose partners were Gordon Campbell and Ralph Klein.

LOL!

Old jokes are Best!

It boggles my mind that Ontario residents haven't put the heat on McGuinty like BC has with Campbell re: the HST and a myriad of other b.s.. I wish McGuinty were gone.

Ontario residents are a cowed bunch-pussies is too mild a term.

Edited November 5, 2010 by bill_barilko

[eyeball]

It boggles my mind that Ontario residents haven't put the heat on McGuinty like BC has with Campbell re: the HST and a myriad of other b.s.. I wish McGuinty were gone.

Perhaps the income taxes McGuinty included in Ontario's shift to the HST made the difference. In addition to proposing the HST before the last election Campbell should have included the tax cut he just proposed.

To be perfectly honest I'll have no issue with the next premier keeping the HST if the 15% cut in provincial income tax is left in place. A few further tweaks to this to take into account folks on pensions or with low income who won't benefit from the 15% income tax cut or to restore the tax free status on items that weren't taxed before harmonization would also be a nice touch.

I bet if the question in our referendum on this included the income tax cut that's just been proposed the HST would pass.

Campbell and the Liberals will no doubt be held to account for the way they misled us about their intentions to adopt the HST and if the referendum blows up because of this and we go back to the old GST/PST so be it.

The benefits of the HST to BC was premised on the idea that savings to business' would be passed on to consumers. I'd have an easier time believing that if the business community used it's influence to persuade the political parties and governments they support to be more transparent and less deceitful in the future. These are clearly the bigger issues here.

[dre]

Perhaps the income taxes McGuinty included in Ontario's shift to the HST made the difference. In addition to proposing the HST before the last election Campbell should have included the tax cut he just proposed.

To be perfectly honest I'll have no issue with the next premier keeping the HST if the 15% cut in provincial income tax is left in place. A few further tweaks to this to take into account folks on pensions or with low income who won't benefit from the 15% income tax cut or to restore the tax free status on items that weren't taxed before harmonization would also be a nice touch.

I bet if the question in our referendum on this included the income tax cut that's just been proposed the HST would pass.

Campbell and the Liberals will no doubt be held to account for the way they misled us about their intentions to adopt the HST and if the referendum blows up because of this and we go back to the old GST/PST so be it.

The benefits of the HST to BC was premised on the idea that savings to business' would be passed on to consumers. I'd have an easier time believing that if the business community used it's influence to persuade the political parties and governments they support to be more transparent and less deceitful in the future. These are clearly the bigger issues here.

Even though Id personally benefit greatly from replacing the progressive income tax with a regressive consumption tax, I totally disagree with that approach. If the government needs more revenue they should get it by increasing taxation not by investing new taxation schemes.

The only way Id support a consumption tax is if it wasnt regressive... perhaps if the first 20 thousand dollars in consumption was exempt. Otherwise its just a shifting of the tax burden from rich to poor and its been shifted too far in that direction already.

Edited November 5, 2010 by dre

[Wild Bill]

Perhaps the income taxes McGuinty included in Ontario's shift to the HST made the difference.

I wouldn't bet on it, Eyeball! You must consider that we have no form of recall for legislation in Ontario, unlike B.C. Also, no mechanism for a referendum or plebiscite except through the ruling provincial party, which is McGuinty's Liberals.

So we have no obvious channel of expression for our dissatisfaction. However, if you pay attention you hear almost everywhere that no one appears to have approved of adopting the HST. What's more, McGuinty's new 'smart meter' rates that have hiked everyone's electricity bills are VERY unpopular!

Living here, I don't see people rioting in the streets burning Dalton in effigy but there is a growing sense of public anger towards his government. As I've said before, Ontarioans seem to be finding Harper and federal politics a bit boring but Dalton is slowly and steadily pissing us all off!

Already his Liberals have been dropping like a rock in the polls. Unless Hudak and the Opposition does something stupid Dalton is going to have a very tough time next year at the polls.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Wilber]

Got my flue shot today. Had to pay HST on it.

[jbg]

Yup, that's how our system works.

Thanks. I know literally nothing about Canada.

Though unfortunately the palace coup against Carter by Ted Kennedy was unsuccessful.

[Jack Weber]

It boggles my mind that Ontario residents haven't put the heat on McGuinty like BC has with Campbell re: the HST and a myriad of other b.s.. I wish McGuinty were gone.

The problem is thatwe never got the chance last year when "Public Consultations" took place....Only at Queens Park,and only for one day,if I remember correctly...

And sadly,what's the option that's going to save us in Ontario?Hudak,when asked if he's get rid of the HST last year,waffled on thematter.The fact is that he is'nt going to do much with it because he essentially agrees with this type of tax,just like one of his former mentors,Slasher Jimmy.

Remember who pays for Hudak...Namely the folks that belong to the Chamber of Commerce in the provice.They all love the HST because it has essentially shifted alot of tax onto individuals and off business...That's right up the PC alley...

Edited November 5, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Wild Bill]

The problem is thatwe never got the chance last year when "Public Consultations" took place....Only at Queens Park,and only for one day,if I remember correctly...

And sadly,what's the option that's going to save us in Ontario?Hudak,when asked if he's get rid of the HST last year,waffled on thematter.The fact is that he is'nt going to do much with it because he essentially agrees with this type of tax,just like one of his former mentors,Slasher Jimmy.

Remember who pays for Hudak...Namely the folks that belong to the Chamber of Commerce in the provice.They all love the HST because it has essentially shifted alot of tax onto individuals and off business...That's right up the PC alley...

To be fair Jack, there's a 'poison pill' in the HST agreement that McGuinty signed. If Hudak were to revoke it we'd have to pay, BIG TIME! It would not be worth the pain.

What Hudak has promised is to look at where he can exempt certain products and services, like Hydro electric bills, gasoline, rents and other necessities.

That at least, would be something! Dalton should have done that from the beginning, but likely he never even thought of it. As I've said before, Dalton and his gang seem to be genuinely surprised whenever there are bad repercussions from something they've done. They're like a 6 year old trying to play chess. He learns how each piece moves but he can't think more than one move ahead on the board!

[eyeball]

I wouldn't bet on it, Eyeball! You must consider that we have no form of recall for legislation in Ontario, unlike B.C. Also, no mechanism for a referendum or plebiscite except through the ruling provincial party, which is McGuinty's Liberals.

So we have no obvious channel of expression for our dissatisfaction.

Well, you better start jumping up and down in a bloody froth over that first if that's the case.

However, if you pay attention you hear almost everywhere that no one appears to have approved of adopting the HST. What's more, McGuinty's new 'smart meter' rates that have hiked everyone's electricity bills are VERY unpopular!

Living here, I don't see people rioting in the streets burning Dalton in effigy but there is a growing sense of public anger towards his government. As I've said before, Ontarioans seem to be finding Harper and federal politics a bit boring but Dalton is slowly and steadily pissing us all off!

Already his Liberals have been dropping like a rock in the polls. Unless Hudak and the Opposition does something stupid Dalton is going to have a very tough time next year at the polls.

Yes there's a growing sense of anger towards government everywhere these days it seems. I've been down that road myself and all I've got to say is...apathy is highly under-rated.

[ToadBrother]

Even though Id personally benefit greatly from replacing the progressive income tax with a regressive consumption tax, I totally disagree with that approach. If the government needs more revenue they should get it by increasing taxation not by investing new taxation schemes.

New taxation scheme? VAT/consumption taxes have been around for a long time. There are other benefits than just savings to business. They are a helluva easier (read: cheaper) to administer at the government end.

VATs are pretty much the darling of most economists, and while yes, they can increase burdens in one area, they also tend to level the playing field.

The PST sucked. It was a horribly difficult tax to run, a nightmare for both the Province and business. If we're going to have a sales tax, then why not a VAT? Lots of other jurisdictions, even fellow welfare states like New Zealand and the UK, have one. Yes, they were tough in the beginning, as any tax change is, but people got over that.

The only way Id support a consumption tax is if it wasnt regressive... perhaps if the first 20 thousand dollars in consumption was exempt. Otherwise its just a shifting of the tax burden from rich to poor and its been shifted too far in that direction already.

And how could you ever actually run such a tax? Are you advocating everyone save their Walmart receipts?

[ToadBrother]

To be perfectly honest I'll have no issue with the next premier keeping the HST if the 15% cut in provincial income tax is left in place. A few further tweaks to this to take into account folks on pensions or with low income who won't benefit from the 15% income tax cut or to restore the tax free status on items that weren't taxed before harmonization would also be a nice touch.

The problem all along, as a number of economists pointed out when the BC Liberals announced the tax, was that there should be some commensurate tax cut elsewhere, preferably income taxes. If Campbell had said "We're going to give everyone a 15% income tax cut along with the introduction of the HST", I suspect it wouldn't have ever have been a major issue at all.

That's what Campbell did when the Province introduced the Carbon Tax, he put in countering income tax reductions to offset the hike in fuel/energy taxes. Of course, it was also announced during the 2005 election, which means it was actually debated. The Opposition got their kick at the cat, people got to moan, but at the end of the day, because it wasn't sprung out of nowhere, it didn't feel like a deceit.

Of course, in 2005, the Province was rolling in dough. In 2009 the Province was moving at high speed towards a revenue short fall, and it couldn't afford to give the Fed's 1.6 billion back out in lowered taxes. But surely they must have suspected before the HST came into effect last July that they might be looking at higher-than-expected corporate tax revenue, so why they didn't try to disarm the anti-HST forces at that point by offering the cut then is beyond me. Instead, Campbell basically disappeared, leaving the Minister of Finance and the BC Liberal caucus to try to justify the whole thing even as it was clear that someone was flushing them down the toilet.

To my mind it demonstrates a long-standing principle of governments that have been around too long. You get the arrogance, in this case the idea that Campbell could impose whatever he liked and that the majority of the province would still have some allergy to the misdeeds of an NDP government nearly a decade old. But beyond even arrogance, there creeps in a kind of incompetence. For years the BC Liberals had been able to push through even the harshest legislation, and even screw it up (as they ultimately did when they tore up all those health union contracts and ultimately got spanked in court) by constantly underlining the fact that they were the fiscally responsible party. But they wiped that out with the revenue forecast BS they laid on everyone in the leadup to the 2009 election. Once they lost the electorate's faith that they were the best party to manage the Provincial finances, they couldn't sell even the most sound idea. In one fell swoop they burned all their political capital away.

It will be a sad thing if the HST is tossed, and I'm hoping that when it is, that the government, whoever it ultimately is, will at least retain the VAT aspects of whatever replaces it. The PST was a terrible tax that the business community had been complaining about for years.