C 440 Sanctuary Bill Dies

[Evening Star]

The war was deemed illegal by Kofi Annan, as my links show.

[g_bambino]

The lack of political will to tackle the issue does not make the war legal, and justifies the decisions made by these soldiers to follow their informed conscience.

The lack of political will to tackle the issue does not justify a soldier's decision to desert his or her post. It is not a soldier's job to decide what wars are legal and which are not. As I said, our CF policies make that clear.

[g_bambino]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq

Interesting, but the UN is not a dictatorship. A decision by the General Assembly was what I was looking for.

[M.Dancer]

The war was deemed illegal by Kofi Annan, as my links show.

Actually what yoiur links show is that in his opinion, it was illegal. That doesn't make it illegal, it makes it his opinion..which carries no more legal weight than my opinion.

[M.Dancer]

There is a difference between a soldier who refuses to continue serving when faced with orders (like deploying in Iraq) they consider to be immoral and people who murder abortion providers. If that's the best you can come with, then you don't have much to start with.

Don't need a better one, both are decisions of conscience, both are contrary to the law.

[Argus]

The war was deemed illegal by Kofi Annan, as my links show.

How much was the old crook paid for his "legal opinion"?

[Argus]

Its stupid to try to paint all these people with the same brush. You have to look at them on a case by case basis.

If they believe they are being asked to do something illegal than its their obligation under Canadian, US, and International law to refuse the order, and they should tell the government to go fuck themselves.

Quite true. And then the American courts will investigate and determine whether they actually were being ordered to commit an illegal act. Oddly, these individuals decided to run for it rather than "concientiously" put their case before the US courts.

Not for us to determine then. Send them home and let their own courts deal with them.

[Evening Star]

Interesting, but the UN is not a dictatorship. A decision by the General Assembly was what I was looking for.

That is a fair point. I guess I think a war should be officially sanctioned by the UN in the first place in order to be considered legal, which never happened in this case. I'm still not entirely opposed to giving sanctuary to soldiers who resist a non-UN-sanctioned war - as well as giving legal protection to Canadian soldiers who do the same thing.

[bush_cheney2004]

...For political reasons, noone would have dared bringing the issue of the legality of the Iraq war to the International Court of Justice. Had the issue been brought before the ICJ, the same Bush Government that found a way to make torture "legal" would likely have declared itself not bound by any decision made by the Court.

The USA has never ratified the Rome Treaty, and is not subject to the ICJ.

The lack of political will to tackle the issue does not make the war legal, and justifies the decisions made by these soldiers to follow their informed conscience.

Then they can face the music back home and convince a court...and feel "justified" in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

Edited October 22, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[ToadBrother]

see heavily suspect recruitment practices

I think that's been a fact of volunteer armies, hell even conscription armies, since the dawn of time.

"Join the Pharaoh's army and enjoy beautiful days in the sand and sun!!!!"

Anybody who joins the army based on what a recruiter promises is just the kind of guy we need as cannon fodder.

[CANADIEN]

Don't need a better one, both are decisions of conscience, both are contrary to the law.

One is murder, the other one is refusing to engage in an illegal act. You DO need better.

[g_bambino]

One is murder, the other one is refusing to engage in an illegal act.

You didn't say illegal, you said immoral, and both are just personal opinions of the soldier in question.

[Evening Star]

Suppose the UN had clearly declared the Iraq War illegal, by a vote of the General Assembly or whatever means you prefer. Would you be OK will a sanctuary bill in that case?

[Wild Bill]

Suppose the UN had clearly declared the Iraq War illegal, by a vote of the General Assembly or whatever means you prefer. Would you be OK will a sanctuary bill in that case?

Well, I for one wouldn't! First off, the UN is not some world government. It is a meeting house for a group of sovereign states. If the UN had declared the Iraq war illegal, the US would be under no legal obligation to obey. They would simply treat the UN position as an opinion, nothing more.

This is a GOOD thing! Remember, the UN is often corrupt and its decisions hijacked by third world dictatorships. Most of them don't even pay their UN dues! They sure demand that they're listened to, however. Cheap bums with loud mouths, if you ask me.

Before we could ever even imagine a world government we would have to have evolved to the point where we could put together enough sensible countries to make such a government work properly. I don't know when that will be but it certainly isn't NOW and it won't likely happen by next weekend!

[M.Dancer]

One is murder, the other one is refusing to engage in an illegal act. You DO need better.

False. Your opinion of the war is it was illegal, your opinion does not make it so.

So we are back to two illegal acts, murder and desertion. The only reason you feel desertion is okay id you have an opinion about the war, others have opinions about abortion...if your is valid, the other can be too...my position is neither are valid...even if the war is deemed illegal by a judicary body, given that a soldiers contract is to his governemnt and his constitution.

[ToadBrother]

False. Your opinion of the war is it was illegal, your opinion does not make it so.

So we are back to two illegal acts, murder and desertion. The only reason you feel desertion is okay id you have an opinion about the war, others have opinions about abortion...if your is valid, the other can be too...my position is neither are valid...even if the war is deemed illegal by a judicary body, given that a soldiers contract is to his governemnt and his constitution.

Indeed. Desertion is still a crime regardless of whether the military action is deemed lawful, right, whatever. A soldier, particularly in a volunteer army like Canada and the US, gives up his freedom of choice upon enlisting. If we allowed soldiers, after enlistment, to simply say "Oh well, I think shooting Lower Slobonians is immoral", you wouldn't have an army very long.

Modern soldiers should be damned happy that we're so liberal now. A hundred years ago, deserters were simply shot.

[eyeball]

Quite true. And then the American courts will investigate and determine whether they actually were being ordered to commit an illegal act. Oddly, these individuals decided to run for it rather than "concientiously" put their case before the US courts.

Are there any cases of objectors trying this and how conscientiously did the court investigate their claims?

[jbg]

Interesting, but the UN is not a dictatorship. A decision by the General Assembly was what I was looking for.

It is dominated by dictatorships though.