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Canadian soldier found not guilty in 'mercy-killing' of wounde


wyly

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I'm not, I'm simply saying some effort should have been made to evacuate the wounded insurgent to a hospital. I'm not aware of any attempt having been made to do this. It stands to reason that if Semrau had attempted to get a helicopter and there weren't any available these facts would have been made known and they would have been central to his defence.

When I read the reports I saw that the insurgent was so badly wounded that he was expected to die within minutes and was in a great deal of pain. All this talk about helicopters and how the man could have been saved appears to be a fabrication from impractical 'liberals'.

Anyone with any experience or even imagination can understand that combat is a bloody business. Often a body is torn open and there's NOTHING that can be done, even IF time was available! That's just reality.

In such cases, soldiers have understood the 'coup de grace' for thousands of years. It is a kindness, not a cruelty. Put yourself in that wounded insurgent's position. You know you're going to die and you also know it's gonna HURT very badly before you do!

If I were such a wounded soldier I would bless an enemy for the kindness of giving me a quick end.

As for those who would deny me such mercy, I would curse them with my dying breath!

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When I read the reports I saw that the insurgent was so badly wounded that he was expected to die within minutes and was in a great deal of pain. All this talk about helicopters and how the man could have been saved appears to be a fabrication from impractical 'liberals'.

Anyone with any experience or even imagination can understand that combat is a bloody business. Often a body is torn open and there's NOTHING that can be done, even IF time was available! That's just reality.

In such cases, soldiers have understood the 'coup de grace' for thousands of years. It is a kindness, not a cruelty. Put yourself in that wounded insurgent's position. You know you're going to die and you also know it's gonna HURT very badly before you do!

If I were such a wounded soldier I would bless an enemy for the kindness of giving me a quick end.

As for those who would deny me such mercy, I would curse them with my dying breath!

problem with that is that these weren't trained MD's making that decision....Omar Khadr was wounded so badly his beating heart was visible...army guy on this forum told of a canadian soldier who was ripped, open leg severed and what not by an IED, who then gave aid to others and he survived...

I guess a decision has to be made are we really the good guys or no better than what we accuse the opponents of being...

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If he knew there was no medivac available, he would not have made a vain request.

Big if and you seem to be the only one who's suggesting it. If this was actually the case, don't you think he'd be using it in his defence the same way you are?

In any case, your effort to smear him is flaccid.

No, I think that better describes your defence.

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In such cases, soldiers have understood the 'coup de grace' for thousands of years. It is a kindness, not a cruelty.

If this is the case(s) surely there must be rules of engagement, policies and conventions that cover the use of the coup de grace. Where are they?

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If this is the case(s) surely there must be rules of engagement, policies and conventions that cover the use of the coup de grace. Where are they?

Only a Canadian could ask for such a thing! In other words, someone who believes that there must be rules for everything and wants to "back seat drive" soldiers in a combat zone from the safety of his armchair!

Then if it becomes an issue the soldier in question is tried by an officer who has ZERO combat experience, a mere political appointee...

For thousands of years, Eyeball, no one but perhaps Canadian liberals like yourself have even thought they needed to pass such rules!

My point still stands. If I were to die in agony because of the cruel inaction of such a liberal philosophy I swear if I was able I would haunt those who supported such rules to their dying day! I'd make 'Poltergeist' look like a picnic...

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Only a Canadian could ask for such a thing! In other words, someone who believes that there must be rules for everything and wants to "back seat drive" soldiers in a combat zone from the safety of his armchair!

Then if it becomes an issue the soldier in question is tried by an officer who has ZERO combat experience, a mere political appointee...

For thousands of years, Eyeball, no one but perhaps Canadian liberals like yourself have even thought they needed to pass such rules!

My point still stands. If I were to die in agony because of the cruel inaction of such a liberal philosophy I swear if I was able I would haunt those who supported such rules to their dying day! I'd make 'Poltergeist' look like a picnic...

The Laws of War will not support Officers or NCO's or the troops executing the wounded. Even if they are severly wounded. They get to bleed out and die in pain like everybody else...even you.

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The Laws of War will not support Officers or NCO's or the troops executing the wounded. Even if they are severly wounded. They get to bleed out and die in pain like everybody else...even you.

How incredibly cruel...

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Only a Canadian could ask for such a thing! In other words, someone who believes that there must be rules for everything and wants to "back seat drive" soldiers in a combat zone from the safety of his armchair!

No, I'm a citizen of a democracy, or so I'm told, and as such I'm responsible for the actions of the soldiers that kill people in my name. I'd rather drive our government from the front seat so we can prevent it from getting us into these stupid quagmires in the first place but I suspect you're quite happy with the present arrangement. Heck you probably think we already have too much control over our government.

Then if it becomes an issue the soldier in question is tried by an officer who has ZERO combat experience, a mere political appointee...

For thousands of years, Eyeball, no one but perhaps Canadian liberals like yourself have even thought they needed to pass such rules!

Admit it, you'd prefer we just let the soldiers run the country wouldn't you?

My point still stands. If I were to die in agony because of the cruel inaction of such a liberal philosophy I swear if I was able I would haunt those who supported such rules to their dying day! I'd make 'Poltergeist' look like a picnic...

My point still stands too. Don't be surprised if someone avenges the coup de grace that killed his relative or friend by targeting the country that delivered it.

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Nonsense, Semrau could and should have whistled up a helicopter to transport him to a hospital, especially if he had hours to live.

This case reminds me of a point I often heard being made at first aid training courses about continuing all efforts to treat someone until you are relieved by someone with a higher level of training, like a doctor or paramedic. It is often important to the family and loved one's of the injured patient to know that everything that could have been done to save them was done. In the context of an insurgency this point becomes a lot more relevant in a war that includes a struggle for people's hearts and minds.

Capt Semrau did make that radio call back to HQ, he advised them of his situation on the ground,and about the wounded terrorist, he asked what should his next step be...He was ordered to carry on with the mission, to leave the wounded terrorist...That is in Capt Semraus statement and the Col's (from HQ) statement...

Everything changes when in Combat, every soldiers recieves a first aid course, advanced first aid which includes CPR, and 1 man out of 8 normally recieves TCCC course which includes everything else including minor surgery...But here is where WAR changes the rules, "The Mission always comes first", when it comes to treating wounded "any wounded" including our own, the mission must not be jepordized, or comprised, .....treatment of enemy wounded follow the same orders, the wounded man was assesed and deemed he was going to die, in short order, it does not take long to bleed out, with those kinds of wounds....lets also keep in mind he was engaged by a US APPACHE and it's 30 mm cannon...thats a bullet bigger than a large mans thumb in dia, at this size it does not even have to strike flesh to shred it, but just come close....not many survive any wound from a 30mm even if a surgeon was there when he was shot....

In this case Capt Semrau was ordered to leave the terrorist behind, as sending in a Medivac helo would have given their postion away, and comprised the mission...That being said, if the situation allows then every measure is offered and given including a ride back to higher medical care...in this case the situation did not allow for any treatment...

After all they were in a terrorist controled area, the engagement alone would have attracted taliban for miles around in large numbers, lets not forget that Capt Semrau was mentoring a group of Afghanis soldiers, which means they are not of the same caliber as the mentors, it means they where somewhat green...not something you want to get caught with in the bad guys back yard when they outnumber you...

Shooting him like a dog in the street was a particularly stupid and short-sighted thing to do. For all we know the injured insurgent could have survived and gone on to be a spokesman for peace out of gratitude for having been saved, OTOH, some member of his family could right now be donning a suicide vest in preparation to avenge his death.

I agree with you, it was not the best course of action that could of been taken..., in fact it goes again'st all our ethical, genva conventions, inter national laws we are forced to learn,everything we are taught by the book this action goes again'st...

That all being said some soldiers do make pacts with other soldiers that if they are critically wounded, or loss arms and legs that a coup de grace be performed...putting a soldier out of his misery....is an unwritten pact, sort of gentlemens agreement....I've never seen or heard of any Canadian soldier been shot in this matter, Now i've heard a few asking or begging to be shot, because of the extreme pain, ...but i've never seen anyone carry it out...this practice is normally left with our spec ops guys operating well beyound enemy lines....

I know this is hard to wrap your mind around , most are screaming this is wrong, end of story....But soldiers that are constantly outside of the wire, most have resigned themselfs that death is a huge part of what we do, they have resigned themselfs that death will touch them or someone they are close to during a tour....so asking someone to end your pain and suffering is not an out to lunch request...it comes with a deep respect, or bond that developoes between soldiers...

And while i have no love for any taliban terrorist, they do have my respect, and leaving a man behind just to bleed out and die of his wounds in pain would wiegh heavily on me...would i have shot him...given him an overdose of morphine,i can't say i've never been it that situation...

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And while i have no love for any taliban terrorist, they do have my respect, and leaving a man behind just to bleed out and die of his wounds in pain would wiegh heavily on me...would i have shot him...given him an overdose of morphine,i can't say i've never been it that situation...

Good post.... it would do for everyone to remember that very few things are black/white... right/wrong... especially if you are in a war-zone. There are rules... they are very black/white. You follow them or it is "wrong"... except when it's not.

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problem with that is that these weren't trained MD's making that decision....Omar Khadr was wounded so badly his beating heart was visible...army guy on this forum told of a canadian soldier who was ripped, open leg severed and what not by an IED, who then gave aid to others and he survived...

I guess a decision has to be made are we really the good guys or no better than what we accuse the opponents of being...

Now your confusing the real world with the world of war, TCCC trained soldiers are trained for most battlefield medical procedures, granted they are not MD's but perhaps a few steps down the ladder, that and they've seen combat, and it's effects, seeing someone shreded by a 30 mm cannon well you don't need an MD to know that guys toast ...Omar was shot by a 5.56mm rifle round, if you've seen the pictures you'll know that the exit wound is approx 3 to 4 in in dia....it is very rare for a 30mm to leave an exit wound, because of it's size and the human body is just not big enough in other words the exit wound would be some what large in excess of 30 to 40 in's in dia...

The guy that survived the IED was a special case, and a very motivated individual, who was a medic to start with. that being said i get your piont. But these guys had seen enough wounds and death to know this guy was not long for this world.

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As one of his soldier pals said after, he`s a great loss to his men and he`s a WARRIOR. Don`t warriors only kill?
warrior, macho boys club...
I view them as society's misfits - programmed to kill on command and thoughtlessly following other misfits into delusional battle. I mean most the exercises revolve around how you can take advantage of and kill the enemy most efficiently without high casualties. They are trained to shoot to kill, aim to cause the most damage, and to not think of the consequences.

WOW, where is it that you get your info from, i would really like to know if any of you guys have meet a Soldier, Airmen, or Navy person and if so how many have you talked to 1,10,20, 50 more....I mean you've painted all 60,000 plus regular force pers, and over 25,000 reserve force Canadians serving their country with the same brush.....

According to you guys the Armed Forces is full of killers, a home for Macho boys, programed to do nothing but kill on command and yet DND has approx 160 different trades or jobs available, and only a small percentage of them have anything to do with combat...It sounds like to me you know nothing of what your talking about, or have forgotten what services they do provide this country 365 days a year, 24 hours a day....nothing mentioned about Search and rescue, on land or sea, nothing about our navy and Airforce performing fisheries patrols, drug interceptions, assisting imigration, lets not mention inter national aid such as our dart teams, or deliverying our countries assistance to some 3 rd world country....rescueing Canadian citizens from a war torn country... Shit lets not even mentioned it was soldiers that built that peace keeping myth you so conviently throw back in our faces.....not to mention domestic operations such as OKA, Winipeg floods, ICE storm, and lately the Huricane that hit NFLD....

yes this was all done by mindless robots killers ,that where once known as Canadian citizens....and this ladies is just the tip of the iceburg....

As a soldier i would hope that Canadians would atleast know what we do, in their name....and yet you have proven me wrong once again....i hope your as well versed on the other topics you've commented on, as you've been here, try and not talk out you ass, but rather use your head and think of well informed debating posts.

If you want proof that my point of view has merit, just visit the Royal Military College in Kingston to watch any sporting event. Not only do the players - who are training to become officers - act like a bunch of meat heads, but their fans in the stands make Bozo the Clown look likehe has potential as a Colonel.

Your basing your opinion on a sporting event...come on, and a officer sporting event at that....ever been to junior hockey game when scouts are visting....guess not...lets all remember what it is that we and i mean Canadians ask these guys to do for a living...it's not handing out blankets and teddy bears...they are the final tool left in the toolbox when political diplomacy breaks down...Do you want your warriors to be nice and passive, or do you want them to be alittle rough around the edges, so when the going gets tough you can sleep at night knowing you can count on them.

Plus with all the disgrace that has been taking place - murders, the harbouring of rapists and sadists, the child molesters and wife beaters (and these are only been reported out of Trenton in the last year) - Canada's military is a joke, and an international embarrassment.

I'm not going to make excuses for the above acts or crimes commited by armed forces personal while serving the forces, what i can comment on is the forces does not tolerate any of these acts, proven by the fact that once charged in most serious cases these individuals are released from their duties and stripped of their uniforms. In the other cases DND has ensured these people get the help they need, to over come their shortfalls...

Lets remember these Canadians are picked out of every social network across Canada, from every city, town, or village across the nation, the forces represents a cross section of what makes us a country. If we are a joke or and international embarrassment then we as a nation must own that, becuase that is who we are...Some how i don't think that is the case.

But speaking as a soldier, we are not supermen , but made up of average Canadians just like you...well i should say well informed Canadians....we do a job that not many people want, or just don't have the balls to do...we are a group of doer's, and thinkers, we are the same type of people when faced with a Vimy ridge overcame any obsticle that came our way...we make up the largest group recorded in our colorful history some of it bad, most of it good...we have contributed more than any other group in building this country we have today.....

and yet we still have people like you who think the marshall class are mindless robots programed to kill on order, have nothing to contribute to our nation, or a place in history...and yet most Canadians would be hard pressed to not find anyone in their family history that has not donned a uniform , has not served their nation....and for this service we paint them all with the same brush, call them mindless robots, a joke, an inter national embarrassment.....

Todays Canadian Military has earned the respect of every nation we have fought beside, including those we have taken up arms again'st. and when things get tough and the shit starts flying it is the Canadians that are asked if they can take on the task...That comes with a price our nations soldiers have paid for in full with blood, sweat, and tears....you did'nt give it to them, it was'nt paid for by you, it was earned by those you slag today...A joke, inter national embarrassment, hardly....perhaps it's time all of you do some research...

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WOW, where is it that you get your info from, i would really like to know if any of you guys have meet a Soldier, Airmen, or Navy person and if so how many have you talked to 1,10,20, 50 more....I mean you've painted all 60,000 plus regular force pers, and over 25,000 reserve force Canadians serving their country with the same brush.....

I agree, it doesn't jibe with everyone's experience at all. It's profoundly mistaken.

And I'm not talking from some defensive, "support the troops" posture (a posture I'm frankly sick of, since it's been used to support and defend political policy so often, which is pretty cynical if you ask me).

But most of us have people we know, and often family, who serve or have served, and it's strange to think of them as anything other than the good, ordinary folks whom we know and love.

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Now your confusing the real world with the world of war, TCCC trained soldiers are trained for most battlefield medical procedures, granted they are not MD's but perhaps a few steps down the ladder, that and they've seen combat, and it's effects, seeing someone shreded by a 30 mm cannon well you don't need an MD to know that guys toast ...Omar was shot by a 5.56mm rifle round, if you've seen the pictures you'll know that the exit wound is approx 3 to 4 in in dia....it is very rare for a 30mm to leave an exit wound, because of it's size and the human body is just not big enough in other words the exit wound would be some what large in excess of 30 to 40 in's in dia...

The guy that survived the IED was a special case, and a very motivated individual, who was a medic to start with. that being said i get your piont. But these guys had seen enough wounds and death to know this guy was not long for this world.

and I have to add I don't know what I would've done in that situation(I have a history of not following rules I think are stupid), rules don't always cover every situation, and sometimes the rules are just wrong...but going by the book, following rules to the letter, he shouldn't have been killed, now canadian wounded are at risk for the same treatment...

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Capt Semrau did make that radio call back.... i can't say i've never been it that situation...

FK! You know a country is really corrupt when the army tries to justify non-combat murder as reasonable.

I do believe this is the middle of the collapse of this civilization - when morality and values get replaced by excuses and acceptance of criminal / anti-social behaviors. All the armies in the world are not going to save this civilization. Are we prepared to start anew?

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and I have to add I don't know what I would've done in that situation(I have a history of not following rules I think are stupid), rules don't always cover every situation, and sometimes the rules are just wrong...but going by the book, following rules to the letter, he shouldn't have been killed, now canadian wounded are at risk for the same treatment...

This whole topic is a source of some major discusions within the Military itself, Alot of soldiers believe what the Capt done was totally "unjustified", which it was according to our laws, genva conventions, and inter national law...and alot believe it was justified, and an act of kindness...

The current rules are written to protect the wounded , and are there for good reason, to ensure other soldiers do not exicute the wounded and use the excuse well they were going to die anyways...there is always a but to every situation, at what piont do we stop being killing machines and apply some compasion to our enemies...in this case, the mission came first, meaning there would be no medi vac, nor was there anything that could be done to save this terrorist on the ground...the law says provide basic first aid, and leave them in place, allowing them to die on their on accord...his wounds however were very painful, and in this situation i can not say what i would do, never been in that situation.

His sentence reflects that, there was not enough evidence to convict him of murder, but there was enough evidence to hand out his current sentence which was disgraceful conduct, in which he will be stripped of his rank, and dishonorable discharged from the military. he is not waiting on an appeal.

As for putting our wounded in danger, there is that chance, however unlikely in Afghanistan, as we rarely operate in areas that cannot quickly be reinforced by more troops very quickly....meaning the orginal group would have to fight to the last man before it could happen....we always operate in large numbers for that reason and to avoid anyone getting captured.

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This whole topic is a source of some major discusions within the Military itself, Alot of soldiers believe what the Capt done was totally "unjustified", which it was according to our laws, genva conventions, and inter national law...and alot believe it was justified, and an act of kindness...

The current rules are written to protect the wounded , and are there for good reason, to ensure other soldiers do not exicute the wounded and use the excuse well they were going to die anyways...there is always a but to every situation, at what piont do we stop being killing machines and apply some compasion to our enemies...in this case, the mission came first, meaning there would be no medi vac, nor was there anything that could be done to save this terrorist on the ground...the law says provide basic first aid, and leave them in place, allowing them to die on their on accord...his wounds however were very painful, and in this situation i can not say what i would do, never been in that situation.

All very true. The rules are there for an excellent reason; and simultaneously, it's perfectly easy to imagine where following the rules is the cruelest option. There's no easy answer.

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All very true. The rules are there for an excellent reason; and simultaneously, it's perfectly easy to imagine where following the rules is the cruelest option. There's no easy answer.

going back to the OP it's a contradiction, following the riles this soldier should have been found guilty of murder, 1st or 2nd degree and sentenced accordingly just as Robert Latimer was found guilty of murder and given a life sentence(on day parole now)...two mercy killings but two very different outcomes...and there are other cases of mercy killings in Canada where a minimal sentence was given...there is inconsistency in the law and how it is applied...
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going back to the OP it's a contradiction, following the riles this soldier should have been found guilty of murder, 1st or 2nd degree and sentenced accordingly just as Robert Latimer was found guilty of murder and given a life sentence(on day parole now)...two mercy killings but two very different outcomes...and there are other cases of mercy killings in Canada where a minimal sentence was given...there is inconsistency in the law and how it is applied...

See my post about things not being black/white. There is inconsistency because it is a difficult issue to take a stand that says "this is wrong and worth jail-time... but he is not such a bad guy...".

...he shouldn't have been killed, now canadian wounded are at risk for the same treatment...

Come on.... If you think the Taliban gives a shit about the Geneva Convention, you are painfully naive. The only reason they would keep one of our soldiers alive is to videotape the execution later.

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But here is where WAR changes the rules, "The Mission always comes first"

If you think the Taliban gives a shit about the Geneva Convention, you are painfully naive. The only reason they would keep one of our soldiers alive is to videotape the execution later.

We shouldn't be surprised to find that as far as they're concerned their mission also comes first.

What goes around comes around.

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We shouldn't be surprised to find that as far as they're concerned their mission also comes first.

What goes around comes around.

Because video taping a murder is part of the terrorist mission....

Nice to see your inability to smudge morals is unaltered.

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going back to the OP it's a contradiction, following the riles this soldier should have been found guilty of murder, 1st or 2nd degree and sentenced accordingly just as Robert Latimer was found guilty of murder and given a life sentence(on day parole now)...two mercy killings but two very different outcomes...and there are other cases of mercy killings in Canada where a minimal sentence was given...there is inconsistency in the law and how it is applied...

I agree that the law can be very messy and contradictory, certainly.

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Come on.... If you think the Taliban gives a shit about the Geneva Convention, you are painfully naive. The only reason they would keep one of our soldiers alive is to videotape the execution later.

it's irrelevant, it's rule of law behave as you would expect others to behave...any future conflict with Canadians will have opponents thinking these guys don't take wounded prisoners...

and I doubt the Taliban think much of NATO's behaviour bombing wedding parties, I'm sure there is rule somewhere in the Geneva Convention regarding that as well...and now the recent arrests of american soldiers for having a killing club, hunting/executing innocents and taking body parts for trophies...oh ya we're so much better examples of civilized behaviour...

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We shouldn't be surprised to find that as far as they're concerned their mission also comes first.

What goes around comes around.

and we have to remember the cultural context, they treat us no different then they treated themselves...justice and warfare in Afghanistan was brutal and barbaric long before NATO arrived, the Taliban got the same treatment from their opponents...this is a harsh brutal society that has known nothing else...
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