Smart meters simply 'tax machines': Hudak

[capricorn]

Your MLAs should insist on a public inquiry into the incident, no doubt you will find it was a kamikaze McGuinty Liberal possum tasked with a suicide mission in furtherance of the demand meters..

Now that's funny.

[Topaz]

Where I live we have many many wind turbines and since they have been putting them up, we've had more power surges than ever before. I have power surge bars, but it still knocks out the satellite network and I have call the Shaw and get it back on. I wonder what happens with the smart meters when a surge comes through? Charges are tripled?

[fellowtraveller]

Where I live we have many many wind turbines and since they have been putting them up, we've had more power surges than ever before. I have power surge bars, but it still knocks out the satellite network and I have call the Shaw and get it back on. I wonder what happens with the smart meters when a surge comes through? Charges are tripled?

good question. Surge protection often works by knocking out the system, which would mean resetting the meter. I don't think that power surges mean an increase in current draw, often they are just wobbly voltage and cycles - both of which will wreak havoc on anything that has a motor like fridges, greezers and furnaces.

But whatever happens, don't expect Hydro to take any heat or expense.

Interesting bit of symmetry, your smart meter will be used to subsidize somebody elses profits from wind turbines.

[gutb]

The Ontario hydro generation companies are like any other of our public service corporations -- simply jobs programs for a minority elite, with the actual service to the public being an incidental byproduct of making sure a government-employed class enjoys a comfortable lifestyle. Over the last 10 years, the Ontario power "industry" has spent far and away more on employment in relation to its actual expansions in production and distribution. How many of you understand this crucial point -- the fact that we have a minority class of elites who literally leech a highly paid, comfortable lifestyle off of our most important infrastructure? How many of you, furthermore, understand that the smart meters and the other garbage programs that were a part of the province's power initiative was just simply a grab for cash to put into the pockets of government offices and related contractors?

The requirement for the spending was brought to the table due to projected shortages of Ontario's grid, and the solution they decided on was to refurbish some nukes and bring some gas-fired generation on line. Somebody tried to scam their way into getting rid of our coal-fired plants perhaps to get more money for the corrupt contractors or gas market players, but thank God for small mercies. Bruce Power would end up squandering much of the funding on a jobs programs for elites, but Ontario would get the nukes. But we can't have spending in this province (or Canada in general for that matter) before making sure a sufficiently wide cross-section of the bureaucracy gets a piece of the action, leading to a tax-payer bonanza for government contractors and various government offices, hence the smart meters. The smart meters are completely absurd and serve no purpose to consumers of electricity, same as all the "education" programs. All the money that goes into the employment pig trough COULD have went into building more capacity allowing us to sell to the US and drive down our rates.

The solution? Our government culture is completely incapable of operating in any other mode, so we need to take the power grid out of their hands. As Ontario tax-payers, let's issue a contract request for power production, distribution and services to the international market and then vote on the most competitive contracts. Let's fire heifers like Bruce and bring in companies that can give nuclear to the masses at bottom prices. Let's retire the energy debt by giving the well-to-do sacred cow jobs program class their retirement. No more subsidies for wind -- if your wind turbines can't compete with other forms of generation why on Earth would we pay a premium for them? No more free ride for corrupt gas market players.

If we do manage to overcome the immigrant vote in the next election and force someone to keep a promise on lowering our energy costs, every .5 cents of rates that goes down, watch 100 times the screaming and crying for money from the power "industry" go up -- but please keep in mind that that "private" companies generally don't pay half or more of their employees over 100k a year as such a practice would lead to quick bankruptcy.

[Oleg Bach]

If you;d like a good illustration of how important providing utterly reliable electricity is t an economy, read up on life in Nigeria. It is a huge market and there is some cash around because of the vast amount of petrodollars in the country. Nobody will invest there because the only reliable electricity is the stuff you make yourself, and for industry that is a nonstarter.

Don't want to sound like a nit picking dad ...but I must turn off power drains in the house because the 20 year old son I live with does not understand what being a conservative is partly about..IF I did NOT run around this almost adult kid..turning off every light - the power bill would be double..We have an up and coming generation of liberals who will liberally waste resourses and in effect not figure it out until they are freezing in the dark...and even then they won't get it - that nothing in the material world is for free..and that the more resourses you use the more enslaved you are.

[Wild Bill]

The solution? Our government culture is completely incapable of operating in any other mode, so we need to take the power grid out of their hands.

This is an interesting point! After reading up on McGoofy's MicroFit program for those wanting to generate wind and solar power themselves it's pretty obvious that the LAST thing his government wants is people finding ways to get off the grid entirely!

When you try to generate your own wind and solar power one of the first problems you come up against is the need for a battery sink. The average household might need 10 kilowatt hours of power daily but most of the time it needs only a fraction of that. Running a few lights is "mice nuts" of a power drain. Kick on your electric stove to make supper and there's 3-5 kilowatts happening right there! Add a washer or dryer and you're up to your peak but when you shut of the TV and go to sleep your power consumption drops to a pittance, except for when your furnace blower motor kicks on.

It's dumb design to make a wind or solar panel generating system that can deliver the peak power at any given time. It would be horrendously expensive! What you do instead is set up a bank of batteries to store up all that power during the times you're not needing it. The battery bank just has to be big enough to store electricity to get you through cloudy or calm days. That will still be larger than you might think and will cost you several thousand dollars for batteries alone. When you need power for your dryer you draw from the battery, not the main generator. When the dryer is finished the generator goes back to charging up the battery.

For a couple of decades now many American states have offered another solution. They let you use the existing power grid for your battery bank! They do this with a 2-way meter. When you need power you draw it from your system. If you need more than your system can supply then you get the extra from the main power grid. During the time when you aren't drawing much power your system feeds the power grid, effectively "driving the meter backwards".

This can drastically cut your power bill and perhaps even let you run a profit! It's a wonderful way to encourage people to innovate and construct their own alternative power generating systems.

Now let's look at the McGoofy solution! First off, you have to understand that the LAST thing he wants is large numbers of people getting off the grid! That's because we still have about $30 BILLION dollars of stranded debt from all those years of using the nuclear power plants for patronage appointments and a perpetual trough of tax money for everyone involved. That debt is slowly being paid off as a surcharge on your monthly bill, along with separate charges for carrying the power on the transmission lines and any other excuse they can think up! You could use ZERO electricity and still have a considerable bill each month, simply for the 'privilege' of being connected to the main grid of a big massive power company linked to the provincial government.

Those people who signed up for to produce their own power don't get a 2-way meter! Instead, their regular power system stays the same. They continue to draw their home power from the main grid and pay the Ontario Power Corp that inflated bill every month!

The power they produce has an entirely separate path with its own meter to feed into the grid. You will be paid for it and you don't need a battery bank, since ALL of it goes into the grid, ALL the time! Hopefully, you will get paid more for your solar or wind power than you're paying for your residential power from the grid. It has to be a LOT more 'cuz your generating system is rather expensive. It might take 10-15 years to break even and start showing a profit!

Meanwhile, your system CAN'T provide power for yourself! It's not hooked up to do it and there's no battery bank. You still get your regular bill and pay all those surcharges.

Are you thinking that you have a lot of personal experience with electrical systems and could save money building some or all of your generating station yourself? Forget it! McGoofy has already blocked that idea! Only 'approved' contractors are allowed to install 'approved' equipment into such a system. That means you can only buy their stuff at their prices and pay them whatever they ask to install it for you.

It shows a completely different philosophical approach to the problem. The American way encourages self-initiative and innovation. The Ontario way encourages forever relying on a huge universal power company!

There are numbers of people out there handy with this stuff. They scrounge suitable batteries from golf cart service companies. They make their own wind generators and find cheap sources of used solar cells. They even make their own power regulators and inverters! It's not that big a deal if you're an electronics buff. They've realized that the biggest cost savings for themselves can only come from getting totally off the government grid! Then they can kiss all those surcharges goodbye!

The problem is that it is far easier to do such homebrew stuff if you live in a more rural setting. For the average city homeowner it's a far more ambitious project and not really practical as yet.

Of course, for an apartment dweller there's no relief at all!

A breakthrough in battery technology could really lower the entry costs for an independent home-based alternative power system. Electric and hybrid cars may prove to be the answer after they have been around for 5-10 years. If they become cheap enough from autowreckers they might be very useful hooked up to a roof-top wind turbine!

I wish I was younger! I'd build them for friends and charge them nothing for the labour, just to stick it to people like McGoofy who rig the "system" to keep us forever captive to them!

Edited October 1, 2010 by Wild Bill

[TimG]

Are you thinking that you have a lot of personal experience with electrical systems and could save money building some or all of your generating station yourself? Forget it! McGoofy has already blocked that idea! Only 'approved' contractors are allowed to install 'approved' equipment into such a system. That means you can only buy their stuff at their prices and pay them whatever they ask to install it for you.

There is a good reason for that: if they did not people would not bother with solar panels because it would be much cheaper to simply set up a converter and sell the grid power back to the grid at inflated prices. The only way to stop this is to have certified contractors.

[fellowtraveller]

For a couple of decades now many American states have offered another solution. They let you use the existing power grid for your battery bank! They do this with a 2-way meter. When you need power you draw it from your system. If you need more than your system can supply then you get the extra from the main power grid. During the time when you aren't drawing much power your system feeds the power grid, effectively "driving the meter backwards".

This can drastically cut your power bill and perhaps even let you run a profit! It's a wonderful way to encourage people to innovate and construct their own alternative power generating systems.

That makes absolutely no sense at all, since the utility company does not store electricity either. They can't, don't and won't shut down a massive power plant somewhere on the hope that enough pensioners in Barrie are rubbing baslloons intheir hair to produce a few sparks.

Aside from, that, they must build RELIABLE grids capable of delivering RELIABLE amounts of electricity to all consumers at all times. They cannot count on your wind, your solar, your little water wheel or whatever to produce enough to heat and light the province.

So they don't. And won't. Of course. Instead, they build a transsmission and distribution system to your doorstep so you won't freeze in the dark.

[Wild Bill]

There is a good reason for that: if they did not people would not bother with solar panels because it would be much cheaper to simply set up a converter and sell the grid power back to the grid at inflated prices. The only way to stop this is to have certified contractors.

Not at all! You could simply have a standard interface to provide isolation and metering between an individual's generating system and the main grid. You could have a quick inspection for the final connect, just as we do with connecting a new home to the grid.

It doesn't have to be all the same approved equipment and only approved contractors. It's just an expression of the rule-bound mentality here in Ontario, if not Canada.

All those American states don't seem to be having such problems and the number of people developing systems to get off the grid keeps increasing.

As I said, initiative and innovation versus the ONTARIO way! Make it so rule-bound and bureaucratic that you stifle it.

[Wild Bill]

That makes absolutely no sense at all, since the utility company does not store electricity either. They can't, don't and won't shut down a massive power plant somewhere on the hope that enough pensioners in Barrie are rubbing baslloons intheir hair to produce a few sparks.

Aside from, that, they must build RELIABLE grids capable of delivering RELIABLE amounts of electricity to all consumers at all times. They cannot count on your wind, your solar, your little water wheel or whatever to produce enough to heat and light the province.

So they don't. And won't. Of course. Instead, they build a transsmission and distribution system to your doorstep so you won't freeze in the dark.

So who is asking them to shut down any power plants? If they have a surplus then fewer people would get off the main grid. It must make sense under the American way or they wouldn't have growing numbers of people doing it.

Still, if too many people are running 2-way meters with no battery bank and it gets to be a problem for the main utility then at that time decisions can be made to either upgrade the system or stop allowing people to sell surplus power back. By that time hopefully systems will have progressed to the point where people may go that final step and generate all their personal needs themselves and forget about the grid.

Remember, the official goals are (so we're told, anyway!) are to have more power generated by individual and small sites to accumulate into a respectable portion of the total supply and also to generate more renewable, "green" power. If it grows and becomes a problem like you suggest it will be very amusing to hear how the "powers that be" prattle around it!

The question is moot, anyway. As I described, McGoofy has come up with a rigged system for Ontario that keeps people ON the grid! The only alternative is to find ways to do it all on our own.

[August1991]

Vanier, where I reside, is a community about 10 minutes by car from Parliament Hill. At the time of this brownout, it was 20 degrees under sunny skies and no air conditioners were humming. The community lost the supply from the provincial grid. How come?

Capricorn, you ask a good question.

In simple terms, reliability in electrical systems (like in life in general) is desirable but costly. In the case of a hydro system, a breakdown is relatively easy to manage because a restart (reboot) is not a big deal. With coal or nuclear systems, a restart requires all kinds of protocols and checks and takes longer. So, hydro systems save money with lower reliability.

On this point, here's an interesting factoid. North America has 120 volts AC and 60 Hz. This means that electricity switches between +/- 60 times a second, simultaneously everywhere on the continent - except in Quebec and a small county in Texas. I don't know about Texas but in the case of Quebec, it is because its power reliability is not high. The rest of the continent does not want to be connected directly to the Quebec grid because of its size, and unreliability. Quebec electricity is out of phase. (This poses technical problems for Quebec electricity exports.)

That makes absolutely no sense at all, since the utility company does not store electricity either. They can't, don't and won't shut down a massive power plant somewhere on the hope that enough pensioners in Barrie are rubbing baslloons intheir hair to produce a few sparks.

Electrical systems can shift demand. That's what smart meters do. Consumers use their clothes dryers on Sunday mornings rather than on Monday evenings at 6 pm.

In addition, hydro systems can stock water behind dams or in a reservoir rather than let it flow through the generators and produce energy at the wrong time. When you turn on your clothes dryer in Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec or Labrador, chances are that water is flowing through a sluice at that same instant to generate the power necessary. Maybe the water is needed more at a different time.

Edited October 2, 2010 by August1991

[fellowtraveller]

Electrical systems can shift demand

No, they cannot. They can shift supply, but only if they are part of a large grid and surplus is availabloe through sufficient billions being spent on the means of production.

You have it backwards, demand is created by consumers, not the utility.

That's what smart meters do.

No, they don't. Meters simply record demand and consumption information for billing purposes. They are passive devices, they don't 'shift demand'.

[Wild Bill]

No, they cannot. They can shift supply, but only if they are part of a large grid and surplus is availabloe through sufficient billions being spent on the means of production.

You have it backwards, demand is created by consumers, not the utility.

No, they don't. Meters simply record demand and consumption information for billing purposes. They are passive devices, they don't 'shift demand'.

True, in the strictest sense. Still, the fact that smart meters are being used DOES influence demand! People know that they will pay a higher price at high noon than at midnight. That encourages people to shift their demand to a less expensive time of day.

We're arguing definitions and semantics but the net effect is the same.

[madmax]

True, in the strictest sense. Still, the fact that smart meters are being used DOES influence demand! People know that they will pay a higher price at high noon than at midnight. That encourages people to shift their demand to a less expensive time of day.

We're arguing definitions and semantics but the net effect is the same.

Correct, you are arguing semantics. Its as painful as politics sometimes

[fellowtraveller]

True, in the strictest sense. Still, the fact that smart meters are being used DOES influence demand! People know that they will pay a higher price at high noon than at midnight. That encourages people to shift their demand to a less expensive time of day.

We're arguing definitions and semantics but the net effect is the same.

No, I am discussing the OP topic, which is about the politics of the residentialdemand meters.

The influence of demand meters on residentialapplications will be minimal, because people simply cannot amend their lives sufficiently to make it matter. Do you expect everybody to go to bed hungry at 7 PM, then get up in the night to cook? Won't happen, and the Ontario govt knows it. They also know this is all very old news with industrial power consumers, who have nbeen controlling demand forever, and who have much better opportunities to save more in part becuase they use much, much more than residences.

That means the residential meters are simply a revenue grab. The govt does not have to produce any more electricity, they do not have to build or upgrade any facilities or transmission lines. They do get more revenue, and it is all a freebie for them once they install the meter. Becauise they know that people will not and in most cases cannot really change how or rather when they live their normal lives. As a bonus, the govt gets to pretend that if you don't take advantage of this 'green' opportunity by limiting the making of toast to 2:45 AM on weekends, you are doing it out of choice and hate the planet..

The whole thing is a publicists dream.

[August1991]

You have it backwards, demand is created by consumers, not the utility.

...

No, they don't. Meters simply record demand and consumption information for billing purposes. They are passive devices, they don't 'shift demand'.

To say that electricity meters simply record demand is like saying my local gasoline station merely records demand when I buy gas. You ignore the effect of price changes.

FT, people can and do shift demand in response to price changes. They do it in the short run, and in the long run.

No, I am discussing the OP topic, which is about the politics of the residentialdemand meters.

The influence of demand meters on residentialapplications will be minimal, because people simply cannot amend their lives sufficiently to make it matter. Do you expect everybody to go to bed hungry at 7 PM, then get up in the night to cook? Won't happen...

Elsewhere in teh world where electricity prices are higher, people shift demand in many ways. FT, have you ever travelled outside of North America?

----

Let's not lose sight of the main point. Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and Labrador have a wonderful resource that can be exported abroad for a high price. We can do this directly through electricity exports. Or by producing and exporting paper/aluminium/other items intensive in electricity.

Why would we waste this valuable resource at home when we could sell it abroad for a higher price? It's like making Sidney Crosby wash dishes rather than play hockey.

As to the money grab argument, don't confuse two issues. Governments take money from us in many ways (and they also provide useful services). Wasting a valuable resource is another question.

Last point to consider. Even Albertans and Norwegians have the good sense to sell themselves oil at the same price they sell it to foreigners.

Edited October 5, 2010 by August1991

[fellowtraveller]

Elsewhere in teh world where electricity prices are higher, people shift demand in many ways. FT, have you ever travelled outside of North America?

They are relatively recent in Europe, and not used anywhere elose in any large numbers in residential application. In the undeveloped world, they are simply a non factor.

But what does that have to do with Ontario, where they will simply be a revenue generator for the govt?

You'll have to do better on the insults on travel creds, I curently do regular business in UK and France - two trips so far this year, and have had significant time in every continent except South America. Christmas in Kerala this year, you can look it up in an online atlas.

How about you?

[myata]

Well, I restate it once again:

1. I'm OK with managing consumer behavior in directions benefitial to society by economic means; ON CONDITION that it's done in absolutely 100% transparent manner AND leading to meaningful, measurable improvement.

2. The way this government manages our affairs, there's ample evidence of upfront revenue collection; but without much evidence of the other, conditional part. On the contrary, I see no evidence of either 1) transparency or 2) measurable improvement for anybody but obscure government agencies with multi million budgets and six figure salary bureacreats.

Having to choose between no green policies, and "green" policy where pseudo tax on population feeds newer and better and greedier bureaucracies, I'll stick with the former. I'll have my little peanuts to steer them in the way I decide best in my interests both short and long term, rather than feeding GDP in the form of countless bureacracies producing precious little but paperwork and expense reports.

I gave McGuinty's government benefit of a doubt and I'm not at all happy with the direction it's taking. They can't get a handle of governmental blowout that seems to be the only result of all the extra revenue collection they indroduced starting from Health tax and followed by HST, environmental fees, and now hydro rates. I doubt I'll be supporting them any longer.

[dre]

To say that electricity meters simply record demand is like saying my local gasoline station merely records demand when I buy gas. You ignore the effect of price changes.

FT, people can and do shift demand in response to price changes. They do it in the short run, and in the long run.

Elsewhere in teh world where electricity prices are higher, people shift demand in many ways. FT, have you ever travelled outside of North America?

----

Let's not lose sight of the main point. Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and Labrador have a wonderful resource that can be exported abroad for a high price. We can do this directly through electricity exports. Or by producing and exporting paper/aluminium/other items intensive in electricity.

Why would we waste this valuable resource at home when we could sell it abroad for a higher price? It's like making Sidney Crosby wash dishes rather than play hockey.

As to the money grab argument, don't confuse two issues. Governments take money from us in many ways (and they also provide useful services). Wasting a valuable resource is another question.

Last point to consider. Even Albertans and Norwegians have the good sense to sell themselves oil at the same price they sell it to foreigners.

Youre framing it as an either/or debate when it isnt. You can still keep rates reasonable domestically in order to encourage investment, and leave consumers with more money to spend at local businesses... and still have a lucrative export market. Reasonable energy prices are one of the things that attract investment in Canada and encourage business startups.

[Wild Bill]

Youre framing it as an either/or debate when it isnt. You can still keep rates reasonable domestically in order to encourage investment, and leave consumers with more money to spend at local businesses... and still have a lucrative export market. Reasonable energy prices are one of the things that attract investment in Canada and encourage business startups.

Good point! We just had a dairy business move from my neighbourhood to Quebec, this last year. One of the reasons was an ENORMOUS difference in the price of electricity!

[capricorn]

Does anyone know of free software that can be used to chart electricity bills?

[Wild Bill]

Does anyone know of free software that can be used to chart electricity bills?

Sounds simple enough to do on an Excel spreadsheet...

[capricorn]

Thanks Bill. I knew someone would suggest excel. I opened a sheet and am studying how best to format the data. This may take a while but I'll see if I can figure it out.

[August1991]

They are relatively recent in Europe, and not used anywhere elose in any large numbers in residential application. In the undeveloped world, they are simply a non factor.

Europe recently? I traveled in Soviet Europe in the 1980s and even they used smart meters for the simple reason that generating electricity was costly. People had large blocks of sand in their apartments heated at night when electricity was cheap.

But what does that have to do with Ontario, where they will simply be a revenue generator for the govt?

FT, separate the problem of revenue generators from the problem of accurately pricing a valuable resource.

If Sidney Crosby's wife wants to go shopping, she would be wise to let her husband play hockey - rather than berate him because he didn't wash the dishes.

Youre framing it as an either/or debate when it isnt. You can still keep rates reasonable domestically in order to encourage investment, and leave consumers with more money to spend at local businesses... and still have a lucrative export market. Reasonable energy prices are one of the things that attract investment in Canada and encourage business startups.

Dre, you are right that this is an either/or debate - but it's a very sophisticated one. A price forces people to choose. Buy, or not buy.

As to your suggestion that Ontario should have lower prices for some Ontario electricity users, that would be like making Sidney Crosby wash dishes - or play in Arnprior. You seem to think that this would attract investment to Ontario.

In general in life, no family, no individual and no society will succeed or sustain itself in the long run if it buys/produces a resource at a high price and sells it at a low price.

If Crosby played in Arnprior, no doubt local business would benefit. But it would be a bad use of his talents.

Edited October 15, 2010 by August1991

[August1991]

Thread drift ahead.

Good point! We just had a dairy business move from my neighbourhood to Quebec, this last year. One of the reasons was an ENORMOUS difference in the price of electricity!

When it comes to the dairy business, I would first look at milk production quotas. I suspect that milk quotas may have been cheaper in Quebec. Dunno.

----

BTW, am I the only cheese-lover in Canada who notices that the selection of cheese here is extremely limited? Cheddar, cheddar, cheddar. Old Cheddar, Medium Cheddar, Mild Cheddar. Cheddar. (Wow, Mozzarella!)

I am reminded of the joke of the anglophone in Canada who always bought the brand "Old Fort".

Edited October 15, 2010 by August1991