Smart meters simply 'tax machines': Hudak

[scribblet]

Hey, I can relate to this, I don't know anyone who's bill has not gone up with these smart meters and in fact, some small business are having real problems paying their bills. You can bet I'll be voting conservative in the next provincial election. I can set the dishwasher to come on in two hours before I go to bed, but not the washing machine or dryer. I can hang laundry out in good weather, but have to use the dryer in bad weather, why should I have to get up in the middle of the night to do laundry. Timmy gets my vote !!!!

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/09/15/15358836.html

Unless someone is prepared to always do their laundry at 2 a.m., smart meters are nothing more than a “tax machine,” PC Leader Tim Hudak says.

Hudak said Wednesday that, if elected in October 2011, he would pause the program and allow hydro ratepayers to opt out of time-of-use electricity pricing.

”Who’s looking out for the senior citizen who is being lectured by Dalton McGuinty to do her laundry at two in the morning? Who’s looking out for the family with multiple kids being told by Dalton McGuinty to get them showered and ready for school at five or six in the morning,” Hudak said. “I think we cannot afford a one-size-fits-all program that’s driving up costs on already overburdened families.”

( right on Tim )

[Wild Bill]

Hey, I can relate to this, I don't know anyone who's bill has not gone up with these smart meters and in fact, some small business are having real problems paying their bills. You can bet I'll be voting conservative in the next provincial election. I can set the dishwasher to come on in two hours before I go to bed, but not the washing machine or dryer. I can hang laundry out in good weather, but have to use the dryer in bad weather, why should I have to get up in the middle of the night to do laundry. Timmy gets my vote !!!!

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/09/15/15358836.html

( right on Tim )

Hey Scrib, this time he did a poor job of lying right from the start! He sold these smart meters by telling us that if we waited till the off hours to use the most electricity we could save money and save the planet! That was crapola from the start!

You see, if you read the forms he stuffed into our electricity bills and look at the rate we would be charged at different times of day you can see right away that while the peak rate was much higher the best rate at night-time was still a penny or two higher per kilowatt hour than we had been paying. This meant that even if we shut the electricity off except for at night we still would have to pay more than we had been!

Plus McGoofy knew then there would be the HST increase and he also slipped through more extras on our basic rates!

He lied and he knew it! There's no other possible explanation.

Yet somehow we sheep in Ontario seem to shrug it off. Nobody's screaming to tar and feather him, unlike the BC protests over the HST and such. I don't know if we Ontarioans are just too timid or if we've been beaten down to the point where we're numb and just don't care anymore.

[scribblet]

Right... I don't get those inserts as my bills come on line. I wondered about the rates as I suspected the off time rate was higher than previous, so they did increase the rates for off peak hours which is why everyone's bill has gone up.

We shouldn't stand for this, Ontario is way too complacent, we need to go to the mattresses over the HST and Hydro ( like that'll happen in Ontario LOL )

[Topaz]

All these politicans must have investments into green energy and that's why they push it! California tried this for ten years and found out it doesn't work and got rid of it. Yes we are getting ripped off by the hydro industry and my bill also was higher than its ever been and that's with cutting back, doing laundry on weekends, making supper/dinner before 5PM, when higher rates kicks in. I bet you could stop using everything and just keep a nite lite on and your bill would be over $300.00!! I'm thinking seriously over changing over to a gas cooking stove. Can you imagine what the heating bills are going to be this winter?? I'm NOT voting for the PC's, had enough with Harris and three Tory ministers in Ottawa. I rather see a NPD minority or majority but not Tory while Harris have leftovers in the party.

[Bonam]

Just curious, what are your rates in Ontario? I pay 4.59c/kWh plus a base service charge of $7.06 per two month period. I spend about $250-300 per year ($20-25 per month) in total on electricity, which I view as a negligibly small portion of my budget.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Bonam

[August1991]

Hey, I can relate to this, I don't know anyone who's bill has not gone up with these smart meters and in fact, some small business are having real problems paying their bills.

Electricity is a strange product, particularly in Canada.

A hydro network must build capacity for that moment in January, on a working day around 6 or 7 pm or so, when the outside temperature is around -35 and baseboard heaters are on full. People are turning on their oven/stove for the evening meal and lights because it's dark outside. Canada's large cities are still using their metro systems at peak capacity. All the streetlights are on, and the office lights in the large buildings are still on.

In Canada, we build at great expense an electrical network for that peak moment in January - and then, for the rest of the year, the capacity lies dormant.

That's an incredible waste of resources. Other countries don't manage (waste) their electricity (energy) potential the way Canada does. Perhaps because we have so much energy (and rocks and trees and water), we treat these resources indifferently.

Just curious, what are your rates in Ontario? I pay 4.59c/kWh plus a base service charge of $7.06 per two month period.

In Boston, for example (last time I checked), people pay 16c/kwh.

Does this matter? Yes it does. Every kwh sold to you at 5c/kwh could have been sold to an American for 16c/kwh.

Talk about waste.

Edited September 17, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

Does this matter? Yes it does. Every kwh sold to you at 5c/kwh could have been sold to an American for 16c/kwh.

Not sure what you mean here. Is your point that Canada should not provide Canadians with energy but instead export it all to the US to make more money? Anyway, I'm currently residing in America myself...

[eyeball]

Electricity is a strange product, particularly in Canada.

A hydro network must build capacity for that moment in January, on a working day around 6 or 7 pm or so, when the outside temperature is around -35 and baseboard heaters are on full. People are turning on their oven/stove for the evening meal and lights because it's dark outside. Canada's large cities are still using their metro systems at peak capacity. All the streetlights are on, and the office lights in the large buildings are still on.

In Canada, we build at great expense an electrical network for that peak moment in January - and then, for the rest of the year, the capacity lies dormant.

That's an incredible waste of resources. Other countries don't manage (waste) their electricity (energy) potential the way Canada does. Perhaps because we have so much energy (and rocks and trees and water), we treat these resources indifferently.

In Boston, for example (last time I checked), people pay 16c/kwh.

Does this matter? Yes it does. Every kwh sold to you at 5c/kwh could have been sold to an American for 16c/kwh.

Talk about waste.

There's also that moment in August when you can use a driveway to fry an egg and every fan, refrigerator and air-conditioner is working overtime to cool things off...but point taken.

[scribblet]

Electricity is a strange product, particularly in Canada.

A hydro network must build capacity for that moment in January, on a working day around 6 or 7 pm or so, when the outside temperature is around -35 and baseboard heaters are on full. People are turning on their oven/stove for the evening meal and lights because it's dark outside. Canada's large cities are still using their metro systems at peak capacity. All the streetlights are on, and the office lights in the large buildings are still on.

In Canada, we build at great expense an electrical network for that peak moment in January - and then, for the rest of the year, the capacity lies dormant.

That's an incredible waste of resources. Other countries don't manage (waste) their electricity (energy) potential the way Canada does. Perhaps because we have so much energy (and rocks and trees and water), we treat these resources indifferently.

In Boston, for example (last time I checked), people pay 16c/kwh.

Does this matter? Yes it does. Every kwh sold to you at 5c/kwh could have been sold to an American for 16c/kwh.

Talk about waste.

I know in many states the KWH is higher than ours but they don't pay all the additional charges we do, or at least if they do, it is not broken down on their bill as ours is.

McGuinty has to adjust the time of use so we don't have to do laundry in the middle of the night and reduce the rates.

There's an article here about how this is hurting business.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Ottawa+businesses+shocked+higher+hydro+bills/3514824/story.html

Don’t talk to Mario Giannetti, owner of Preston Hardware, about electricity prices. “It’s pathetic, just pathetic,” he moans. “I would say my hydro bill has gone up about 20 per cent from last year until now.”

Giannetti pays $12,000 a month to Hydro Ottawa for his store’s electricity. If the CME’s estimate is accurate, that could jump to as much as $20,000 by 2015.

“It’s just absurd,” Giannetti fumes. “It doesn’t make any economic sense at all. It seems to be just like a monopoly and we have no choice.”

It's time we started to get loud about this !!!

[Bonam]

Umm well the reality is electricity IS cheaper at off-peak periods. I see nothing wrong with prices reflecting costs...

[Smallc]

Just curious, what are your rates in Ontario? I pay 4.59c/kWh plus a base service charge of $7.06 per two month period.

You're lucky. Your rate is less than half the US average. Ontario is somewhere north of 7c, and here, we're about about 3c.

[Argus]

Just curious, what are your rates in Ontario? I pay 4.59c/kWh plus a base service charge of $7.06 per two month period. I spend about $250-300 per year ($20-25 per month) in total on electricity, which I view as a negligibly small portion of my budget.

It's basically not possible to say what we pay for electricity in Ontario because of how complex the formula has gotten. In 2003 it was a flat rate of about 4.3c/kwh. Now the rate depends on the time of day and on the season and on how much you use since you get charged one rate up to X and then another rate above that. All we can basically say is it has gone up substantially since then. In fact, even the "low off peak rate" is higher than what used to be the basic rate, while the peak rate is more than double what the basic rate used to be. According to some reports electricity rates will rise by another 41% by 2015.

Ontario Hydro rates

Hydro to rise 41% by 2015

Edited September 17, 2010 by Argus

[August1991]

Not sure what you mean here. Is your point that Canada should not provide Canadians with energy but instead export it all to the US to make more money? Anyway, I'm currently residing in America myself...

Yes, that's my point.

Norway, a very rich country, has lots of oil. Yet, the local price of gasoline is over $2 per litre.

Why sell yourself short? If you are an excellent chef, why make meals at home when you can make millions in a Paris restaurant? When Canada (or Quebec) sells/wastes its resource at home, that's a loss for us all. It is foolish to sell something at a low price, when it is worth much more elsewhere.

Foolish? It is wasteful. In Quebec, people waste electricity because it is so cheap. And they contribute to greenhouse gases because, rather than offer cheap hydro-electricity to others, they waste it at home. (Manitoba does the same, btw.)

[Bonam]

Yes, that's my point.

Norway, a very rich country, has lots of oil. Yet, the local price of gasoline is over $2 per litre.

Why sell yourself short? If you are an excellent chef, why make meals at home when you can make millions in a Paris restaurant? When Canada (or Quebec) sells/wastes its resource at home, that's a loss for us all. It is foolish to sell something at a low price, when it is worth much more elsewhere.

Foolish? It is wasteful. In Quebec, people waste electricity because it is so cheap. And they contribute to greenhouse gases because, rather than offer cheap hydro-electricity to others, they waste it at home. (Manitoba does the same, btw.)

Umm, ok... so Canadians should huddle in their mud huts and burn trees for light and heat, while cowering in the shadow of huge hydroelectric dams that send Gigawatts of power south. Got it. Why make meals at home instead of in a restaurant? Because you have a family you want to feed, perhaps. Also, I don't see how it's a loss for a typical Canadian to have access to electricity.

Perhaps you are having problems with your communication skills? Maybe you could elect someone to your position that is better able to communicate with Canadians like myself? (ps: that's a satirical reference to your many recent threads about poor communication skills on the part of our present government)

[August1991]

Umm, ok... so Canadians should huddle in their mud huts and burn trees for light and heat, while cowering in the shadow of huge hydroelectric dams that send Gigawatts of power south.

No, we should be rich and enjoy long holidays like Norwegians. We should sell our natural resources at a market price, rather than waste them.

At present, Quebec is wasting its natural resource of blue energy.

If you were a NHL calibre hockey player, would you stay at home and play in the minor leagues - or go for the gusto? Bonam, I know little of hockey but even I understand that if Gretzky had chosen to play in the minor leagues, he would have wasted his talent.

Edited September 18, 2010 by August1991

[Wild Bill]

No, we should be rich and enjoy long holidays like Norwegians. We should sell our natural resources at a market price, rather than waste them.

At present, Quebec is wasting its natural resource of blue energy.

If you were a NHL calibre hockey player, would you stay at home and play in the minor leagues - or go for the gusto? Bonam, I know little of hockey but even I understand that if Gretzky had chosen to play in the minor leagues, he would have wasted his talent.

Might work for Quebec, August! Not so for Ontario. You see, it's not talked about much amongst the politicians here but we've been a net importer of electricity from upper New York and across the Detroit border for years now.

We don't have the transmission lines to take more power from Quebec or Manitoba and we quite often don't have enough for ourselves. So we have to get it from the Americans. Actually, our grid is closely integrated with theirs and at times we supply power to them. So we daren't gouge them on the price, particularly when all is said and done we get more from them than they take from us.

Obviously, more and smarter transmission systems would benefit us greatly. Both Manitoba and Quebec could easily undercut the price we pay the Americans and also use Ontario as a conduit to sell the Americans much more.

Why don't we build the damn lines? I have no idea! Maybe someone else has an inside scoop and could chime in.

[treehugger]

My hydro doubled this year.

I wonder what the people of B.C did differently than Ontario about the forcing of smart meters onto you.

Thousands of emails and letters went to McGuinty's office in Ont. but he paid no attention to anyone.

It looks like B.C protesters will win their protest against the meters. Their Premier listened.

Congratulaions B.C.

Ontario is the heaviest taxed province in Canada. The National Post.

[Topaz]

I have no problem with the charge of my actual, use of hydro my problem is the delivery part. It 's 3-4x higher than what I use.

[August1991]

Might work for Quebec, August! Not so for Ontario. You see, it's not talked about much amongst the politicians here but we've been a net importer of electricity from upper New York and across the Detroit border for years now.

WB, I'm going to assume that your "we" refers to Ontario.

Yet (I think) Ontario has more hydro-electric resources than Michigan or New York. Why is Ontario importing electricity? (Simple answer: People in Ontario are wasting it.)

-----

Let me repeat: Norway has lots of oil and yet the retail price of gasoline in Oslo is over $2/litre. IOW, Norwegians do not sell themselves short or cheap. Unlike Venezuela or Cuba, they do not waste their resources at home.

Norwegians use the world market to sell their local produce - and locals pay world market prices too.

As a result, Norwegians have one of the highest GDP per capita in the world, and they can also afford extensive government/public services.

----

In Canada (in Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba, for example), we follow the Venezuelan model. Locals pay lower prices. Why? Because people hate "smart meters", or something.

And we waste our energy, and we are poorer as a result.

Edited September 23, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

Reduced energy costs don't make you poorer. Ever consider the competitive advantage industry gains by having access to cheaper energy? You can make more money generating electricity and then using it at a factory (or office/laboratory/etc) to produce high-value goods and selling them than you can by selling the electricity directly.

Additionally, I see no causal link between Norway's domestic energy costs being high and Norway being a rich nation. These two facts may both be correct but does not mean that one caused the other. Norway is rich for a wide variety of reasons, and I would wager making locals pay a lot for electricity is not near the top of the list.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Bonam

[Smallc]

You sell energy in province cheaper, and encourage people to conserve it at the same time....then you sell it outside of the province for 3 - 4 times the price....at least, we do.

[Wild Bill]

WB, I'm going to assume that your "we" refers to Ontario.

Yet (I think) Ontario has more hydro-electric resources than Michigan or New York. Why is Ontario importing electricity? (Simple answer: People in Ontario are wasting it.)

I don't believe you have a clear perspective on that, August. After all, you live in Quebec which has FAR more hydro electric supply than Ontario! Your electricity rates are MUCH cheaper! No one has used electricity for heating their houses in Ontario for years. It's just too expensive compared to oil or natural gas.

We also have a higher population and a LOT of heavy manufacturing! Do you have any idea how much more electricity is used by a steel or especially an aluminum smelter than for residential use? I'm willing to bet that the Falconbridge plant in Northern Ontario uses more electricity than the entire area of Montreal and its suburbs!

Ontarioans have practiced conservation up the ying yang, for little or no savings to themselves. Old-fashioned light bulbs are a rarity these days since we all switched to CFLs but of course as any techie knows, lighting is the SMALLEST portion of your electricity bill! It's big motors and burners like your stove or your furnace motor that draw expensive amounts of power. The CFLs did help the Ontario Power Corp from having to build more generators but it did "mice nuts" to reduce your granny's electricity bill.

You think it's US who waste electricity? When we visit friends or relatives in Quebec, we are shocked to see electric baseboard heating! The popular opinion in Ontario has been that it is QUEBECERS who waste electricity, since they have so much cheap supply they take it for granted!

Let's not get into how Newfoundlanders feel about Quebec and hydro electric prices, after the Churchill Falls swindle years ago. It was the eastern equivalent of the NEP!

Edited September 23, 2010 by Wild Bill

[fellowtraveller]

In Canada, we build at great expense an electrical network for that peak moment in January - and then, for the rest of the year, the capacity lies dormant.

That's an incredible waste of resources. Other countries don't manage (waste) their electricity (energy) potential the way Canada does. Perhaps because we have so much energy (and rocks and trees and water), we treat these resources indifferently.

That is simply not true. Every developed country builds an integrated electrical grid capable of handling the peak demand you describe. If they don't, the result is frequent, industry shattering power failures.

The very existence of dependable electricity at all times is one of the things that differentiates developed and developing countries. It is why China, for example, has spent hundreds of billions on p[ower generation infrastructure in recent years. There is no other way.

Larger users can do many things to reduce that peak demand and lower capital investment, and charging different rates for off peak power is one of them. It is hardly new, every business that uses any significant amount of electricity has done it for years. It is unlikely that it can apply as readily to ordinary households, so it must be seen as what it is: revenue grab disguised as saving the planet.

Your overall bump in power costs may not have much to do with it though, particularly if it looks like a simple revenue snatch. It may be related to the very thing responsible greenies have been calling for- alternative energy sources. Who do you think is going to pay for all those giant, ongoing subsidies to producers of wind power, for example. Answer: you are. Enjoy, it is what you wanted.

[August1991]

Reduced energy costs don't make you poorer. Ever consider the competitive advantage industry gains by having access to cheaper energy? You can make more money generating electricity and then using it at a factory (or office/laboratory/etc) to produce high-value goods and selling them than you can by selling the electricity directly.

That is the question, Bonam. I am arguing that Hydro should charge domestic users the same price that it woudl charge foreign electricity buyers in neighbouring states.

What is known is that the contract is for 225 megawatts of power, enough energy to power about 200,000 homes in Vermont. That’s slightly less than the power contained in the current contract, which is about 300 megawatts. The power contract will begin November 2012 and end in 2038.

But what was not revealed Thursday was the exact starting price for the energy. CVPS President and CEO Bob Young said the starting price in 2012 will be “about 6 cents per kilowatt hour,” but the final number, based on a snapshot of market prices this year, will be determined in December.

After that, the price of energy will be tied to the energy market, although utility officials stressed that the formula includes what they call a “price-smoothing mechanism” that will protect Vermonters from the major ups and downs in the market.

Link

Additionally, I see no causal link between Norway's domestic energy costs being high and Norway being a rich nation. These two facts may both be correct but does not mean that one caused the other. Norway is rich for a wide variety of reasons, and I would wager making locals pay a lot for electricity is not near the top of the list.

Well, I do see a causal link. Countries like Cuba, Venezuela and teh Soviet Union that misprice their resources invariably wind up poor.

[August1991]

That is simply not true. Every developed country builds an integrated electrical grid capable of handling the peak demand you describe. If they don't, the result is frequent, industry shattering power failures.

The very existence of dependable electricity at all times is one of the things that differentiates developed and developing countries. It is why China, for example, has spent hundreds of billions on p[ower generation infrastructure in recent years. There is no other way.

FT, I don't dispute that a modern electricity grid must cope with peak demand, and have some spare too. My point is that providing for that peak capacity is very costly. There are great savings to be had if it is possible to shift demand away from that peak moment.

This is what the price mechanism is designed to do. If pork is abundant, its price falls and many households change their eating habits. Go to any grocery store in Canada on a Thursday evening when the weekly sales flyer is new and watch people responding to prices. I don't see why a smart meter would have any different effect.

Ontarioans have practiced conservation up the ying yang, for little or no savings to themselves.

I think that's the problem, WB. Electricity conservation has been of the voluntary, charitable, do-it-for-the-children kind. When people see a benefit in their pocketbook, then conservation really occurs.

You think it's US who waste electricity? When we visit friends or relatives in Quebec, we are shocked to see electric baseboard heating! The popular opinion in Ontario has been that it is QUEBECERS who waste electricity, since they have so much cheap supply they take it for granted!

On this, I cannot disagree. I'd be the first to argue that Quebec is one of the worst offenders in mispricing this valuable resource.

You'll note in the link that I provided above, no one knows the electricity price in this 26 year contract with Vermont. Hydro-Quebec (and Ontario's Hydro One) sign all kinds of secret contracts with industrial electricity users. God knows what kind of shenanigans happen there.

I have argued elsewhere that the Albertan government sets its royalty structure on oil and natural gas too low but at least the structure is known, and Albertan users pay it like everyone else.

Let's not get into how Newfoundlanders feel about Quebec and hydro electric prices, after the Churchill Falls swindle years ago. It was the eastern equivalent of the NEP!

Swindle? Perhaps we should start another thread on this topic although I think there is an old thread on Churchill Falss kicking around somewhere. But look, WB, I can make my point here very simply.

If you own a huge gold deposit on the moon, in your mind you may be very, very rich. In fact though, you got nuttin unless you can find a way to bring the gold from the moon to the earth. Newfoundlanders just don't seem to understand this. They think that the valuable resource is the huge hydro potential of Churchill Falls. It's not. The valuable resource is the ability to bring that power to a place that makes it usable. Quebec gets the lion's share of the benefits of Churchill Falls because Quebec brings the valuable resource to the table.

Edited September 24, 2010 by August1991