Benedict in England

[M.Dancer]

"We can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews.

"I also recall the regime's attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives.

"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society,"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

Atheist Extremism?

[eyeball]

Humanists have said the comments were a "terrible libel" against non-believers.

No kidding.

Atheist Extremism?

No, just extremism, not at all unlike the Pope's.

[ToadBrother]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

Atheist Extremism?

I wasn't aware the Nazis tried to eradicate God. An odd claim, considering damned near everything Hitler ever wrote or said was liberally peppered with references to God.

It wasn't atheists marching Jews off to their deaths in Nazi-dominated areas, it was Catholics and Lutherans.

[Sir Bandelot]

"We can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews.

"I also recall the regime's attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives.

"We cannot however recall that Pius 12 was a Nazi sympathizer, or that the church was an enabler in helping high ranking Nazis escape to Argentina. Or that I am a former Hitler-jugend..."

[kimmy]

"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the 20th century,

...

But in the twentieth century a more militant secularism gained currency in America, and the separation of church and state was reinterpreted in ways that were increasingly antireligious. In a sense, antireligionism crept in as a new state religion, in my opinion, violating the intent of the First Amendment authors.

let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny."

...

Religion must be more than mere custom or habit, more than the transient styles and cultural fashions of passing ages. Religion, which speaks to the eternal in us, must be the foundation of a robust, harmonious society and the animating principle of the whole life of a people.

They should get together and start a rock band.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

Atheist Extremism?

I would be interested to hear either of these guys explain this "extremism" or "militancy" of which they speak.

-k

[Bonam]

I would be interested to hear either of these guys explain this "extremism" or "militancy" of which they speak.

Replace the word "atheist" or "secular" in their statements with "Christian" or "Jewish" or worst of all "Muslim" and these guys would be in hot water over their remarks, for their religious intolerance. But apparently slandering atheists and painting them with a broad brush as "Nazis" is all fine and dandy.

[eyeball]

Replace the word "atheist" or "secular" in their statements with "Christian" or "Jewish" or worst of all "Muslim" and these guys would be in hot water over their remarks, for their religious intolerance. But apparently slandering atheists and painting them with a broad brush as "Nazis" is all fine and dandy.

The Pope probably would have gotten a lot more traction if he'd replaced atheist with leftist or something.

Kudos to everyone for not taking the bait.

Hey Mo, where exactly were you thinking of going with this anyway?

[August1991]

I would be interested to hear either of these guys explain this "extremism" or "militancy" of which they speak.

-k

These guys? Kimmy, I think that you are mistaken to equate them.

One is an old guy born in the 1920s, a professor in Bavaria, jabbering about Nazis. The other, born in the 1940s, a professor at Columbia wrote a book, according to Wikipedia, entitled: What's Right with Islam Is What's Right with America. (I haven't read it.)

In 2010, Christianity (even the fundamentalist version in Gainesville, Fla) is nothing like Islam in 2010, and the Catholic Church in Rome is nothing like, in 2010, Islam in Mecca.

To begin with, there are mosques in Rome. There are no Christian symbols whatsoever anywhere in Saudi Arabia - let alone Mecca.

Edited September 17, 2010 by August1991

[kimmy]

These guys? Kimmy, I think that you are mistaken to equate them.

One is an old guy born in the 1920s, a professor in Bavaria, jabbering about Nazis. The other, born in the 1940s, a professor at Columbia wrote a book, according to Wikipedia, entitled: What's Right with Islam Is What's Right with America. (I haven't read it.)

In 2010, Christianity (even the fundamentalist version in Gainesville, Fla) is nothing like Islam in 2010, and the Catholic Church in Rome is nothing like, in 2010, Islam in Mecca.

To begin with, there are mosques in Rome. There are no Christian symbols whatsoever anywhere in Saudi Arabia - let alone Mecca.

It would be a mistake to equate Feisal Rauf with Saudi Arabia.

I was reading his book earlier this week (what portions the publisher makes available for free online, at least); both of the quotations above are taken from it. And having just been reading through his book and wondering what this "militant atheism" was that he was complaining about, I was quite surprised at how closely the Pope's comments mirrored them.

Unlike the Saudis, Rauf is of the opinion that Christians, Muslims, and even Jews can co-exist peacefully because of the common ground they share. And the above quotes illustrate their common ground, and also illustrates why I think the both of them can go do a backflip into an empty pool as far as I'm concerned.

-k

[August1991]

I was reading his book earlier this week (what portions the publisher makes available for free online, at least); both of the quotations above are taken from it. And having just been reading through his book and wondering what this "militant atheism" was that he was complaining about, I was quite surprised at how closely the Pope's comments mirrored them.

Because you say so Kimmy, I will give this guy some berth. I'll read further what he says.

Unlike the Saudis, Rauf is of the opinion that Christians, Muslims, and even Jews can co-exist peacefully because of the common ground they share.

I have managed all my life with different parents, in different languages, and different grandparents - and different churches.

Co-exist? Easier said than done.

And the above quotes illustrate their common ground, and also illustrates why I think the both of them can go do a backflip into an empty pool as far as I'm concerned.

Both do a backflip?

Kimmy, thank God (thank Voltaire), you are free to express your opinion.

Edited September 17, 2010 by August1991

[M.Dancer]

Related to this tangentially at least...

Last week, retired Bishop Giacomo Babini of the Italian town of Grosseto told the Catholic Pontifex website that the Catholic pedophile scandal is being orchestrated by the "eternal enemies of Catholicism, namely the freemasons and the Jews,

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/04/12/bishop_blames_pedophilia_jews_open2010

ROME — A senior Vatican priest, speaking before Pope Benedict XVI at a Good Friday service, compared the world’s outrage at sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church to the persecution of the Jews, prompting angry responses from victims’ advocates and consternation from Jewish groups.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/world/europe/03church.html?_r=1

Egg's latest gobflap is just one in a string of comparisons...

[ToadBrother]

Replace the word "atheist" or "secular" in their statements with "Christian" or "Jewish" or worst of all "Muslim" and these guys would be in hot water over their remarks, for their religious intolerance. But apparently slandering atheists and painting them with a broad brush as "Nazis" is all fine and dandy.

I still can't figure out how you can blame the Nazis on atheists. The political movement was chalked full Protestants and Catholics. I'll concede the point that Hitler was probably not a Christian in any meaningful sense, but he certainly was no atheist, or if he was, he kept it awfully well hidden behind a constant stream of exclamations invoking God.

Atheism didn't create the Nazi horrors; two thousand years of anti-Semitism did that, and the Church is extremely culpable in the maintenance and spread of that. Not every Pope or Bishop to be sure, but enough to suggest that rather than inventing without justification an atheist Nazi regime, the Pope should ponder that the organization he heads was a major player in all of it.

[kimmy]

Because you say so Kimmy, I will give this guy some berth. I'll read further what he says.

I'm not advocating for him as a fan. I'm just pointing out the surprising similarity between his 2004 book and the Pope's statements this week. After hearing non-stop about what a liberal Rauf is, I decided to do my own reading of his work, and found someone who sounds a lot like western conservative Christians.

I have managed all my life with different parents, in different languages, and different grandparents - and different churches.

Co-exist? Easier said than done.

I can't speak for parents and grandparents of different religions, or attending churches of different religions... but I don't think anybody is demanding intermarriage or religions conversions. I have found that having co-workers and classmates of different faiths has never been an issue, as long as everybody respects certain boundaries.

Both do a backflip?

Kimmy, thank God (thank Voltaire), you are free to express your opinion.

aw, shucks.

-k

[Oleg Bach]

When the American bishops begged the now Pope to remove and defrock the molesters and destroyers of children - He stalled and turned a deaf ear...there is only one mention of capital punishment in the New Testiment..to para phrase as Christ pointed to the children gathered at his feet - "anyone who harms one of these little ones will wish they were never born - they should have a mill stone tied to their necks and be tossed into the sea" - I would assume that being tossed into water with a rock on your neck is an execution....YET - this weasil..who calles himself POPE - (patron - pappa - protector) FAILED to protect the most precious and innocent..which makes him an evil son of a bitch - and the Queen should never have entertained the beadied eyed creep - This is NOT a pope - the last pope who died was the only and last one worthy of the position...this so-called pope sigifies the utter death of the Universal Church that has broken the contract with the founder - NOT PETER..but Christ - who if alive would be real pissed off and the oceans would be full of gasping pedophiles.

[Bonam]

I still can't figure out how you can blame the Nazis on atheists. The political movement was chalked full Protestants and Catholics. I'll concede the point that Hitler was probably not a Christian in any meaningful sense, but he certainly was no atheist, or if he was, he kept it awfully well hidden behind a constant stream of exclamations invoking God.

Atheism didn't create the Nazi horrors; two thousand years of anti-Semitism did that, and the Church is extremely culpable in the maintenance and spread of that. Not every Pope or Bishop to be sure, but enough to suggest that rather than inventing without justification an atheist Nazi regime, the Pope should ponder that the organization he heads was a major player in all of it.

Not to mention he (the Pope) was a Hitler youth. Funny he should be throwing around references to Nazism the way he is.

[M.Dancer]

Not to mention he (the Pope) was a Hitler youth. Funny he should be throwing around references to Nazism the way he is.

To be fair, it's not like he volunteered to join the Kindernazis...nor was he all Zeig Heil like...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI#Early_life:_1927.E2.80.9351

[MightyAC]

The Catholic church celebrated Hitler's birthday for christ sake. Hitler was Catholic, though obviously not a model one. It seems far more likely that centuries of Catholic, anti-Jewish sentiment had more to do with Hitler's views than non-belief in mythology.

Benny should focus more on correcting the evil done by his own organization (and himself personally) than attempting to rewrite (or at least reposition) history.

[Oleg Bach]

Not to mention he (the Pope) was a Hitler youth. Funny he should be throwing around references to Nazism the way he is.

The fact that this POPE (patron - protector - pappa...father....FAILED to protect the children. Pope John Paul before he died was totally depressed that the Vatican had become a protector of evil...This Pope is not a pope...John Paul was the LAST Pope..the last protector of the faith and humanity..this guy looks like a weasil because he is a weasil.

[Melanie_]

The fact that this POPE (patron - protector - pappa...father....FAILED to protect the children. Pope John Paul before he died was totally depressed that the Vatican had become a protector of evil...This Pope is not a pope...John Paul was the LAST Pope..the last protector of the faith and humanity..this guy looks like a weasil because he is a weasil.

JPII was Pope for over 20 years. Plenty of evil happened on his watch. Don't try to deify him - he was no better than Benny, or any other Pope. They've all let their values slide, when it came to protecting their own.

[Oleg Bach]

JPII was Pope for over 20 years. Plenty of evil happened on his watch. Don't try to deify him - he was no better than Benny, or any other Pope. They've all let their values slide, when it came to protecting their own.

At least JP two...in his old age finally understood that this institution that has become dependant on maintaining a status quo based on sucking the life out of the poor and fearful was evil - and I could see regret on his face - with Ratsinger...he will never show regret...

BUT on the over all...most huge bureacractic institutions whether they be governmental,corporate or religious...........eventually becomes a mindless beast that feeds on itself... Whether it be the Vatican or a local child protection agency under the auspice of a civil government _ the all NEED suffering and injustice - abuse and poverty to surivive..so they encourage it - The Vaticans' private and tacit dark policy of screwing young boys in the ass was to create helpless and confused adults who are not sexually or mentally capable of running a family - or being a real and protective FATHER..so the Vatican's priest take on the role of FATHER .............Christ himself said - "call no man father other than your father and God the father ...............................so if I had my way ...the universal church along with all Christian offshoots should disappear.

Because ALL OF THEM HAVE BREACHED THE CONTRACT CREATED BY THE KING OF JUDEA...no contract - no deal!

[Timothy17]

Hello my fellow Canadians.

As a Catholic Canadian I feel obliged to shed some light on the Holy Father's words here, and share with you how Catholics understand this statement.

First, please understand the Holy Father was discussing a

i) "new," and

ii) "militant"

Atheist extremism that he is especially concerned with in Europe, and also in the British isles. Very often, I should note, Pope's have spoken in a "you know who you are, and now you know we know who you are," style. The Holy Father's words are not directed against ahteists, but certain philosophies that are atheistic. Owing to the locality of the ideology he is concerned with, it is not unexpected that North Americans would be shocked by such a statement, as the thinking which the Holy Father is concerned with isn't identifiable in Canadian or American culture and media.

In Europe, there is and has been a powerful drive to de-Christianize that continent, especially in outward or public displays of Faith. Controversial court battles and rulings dealing with, for example, the banning of wearing a Cross or especially a Crucifix in public is unheard of here in North America, but for whatever reason certain nations in the E.U seem to find some legal pretext with a mandatory secularization of all public scapes, which is understood as meaning the exclusion of all and any religion. Christianity is hardly exclusive in being targeted for suprression by the law, the Burka (sp?) issue in France is another example, and I believe something similar is being debated in Spain as well.

The Holy Father knows all-too-well the sorrows of National Socialism. He was conscripted at a tender age and made to fight in Hitler's army, though fortunately he suffered an injury to his hand/fingers (if I recall correctly) during his training, which made him useless to be employed in conventional weapons handling. His stint in the army was brief as he, like so many other young men - boys, really - were desperately enlisted in the final days of Hitler's war. I believe he was stationed to a disfunctional Anti-Aircraft station in or near Berlin, but he claims that he never fired a shot from it, due to his inability (owing to his hand injury), the brevity of his service, a lack of actual munition, and also the general disrepair the station was in.

Posters on this forum are correct to note that Hitler, especially in his early career, made flagrant use of God and invoked that name specifically in his primitive literature especially. Bear in mind, however, that his target audience is Christian Germany, though he presumed that this Christianity was chiefly nominal (rather than actual or practical) due to the general disaffection and disenfranchisement of the German people following the First World War.

Now, I have to confess I find it not a little disrtubing and naive to assume that Hitler's earliest writings were somehow different from his later ones in terms of motive or intent : the National Socialist philosophy made no quarrel over lying and believed strongly in an ends justify the means progrom. The so-called "Final Solution" itself is evidence of this mentality ; therefore, I find it incredulous to imagine that simply because Hitler invoked God meant Hitler actually believed in God, least of all the Christian God : his actions and programs clearly demonstrate he had no such belief, or that he at least conveniently exempted himself from every moral obligation that constitutes the Christian's worship of God, wherein we are commanded to worship God by holy (moral) living, self-denial, service of others, etc. I therefore hold that Hitler's use of the name of God was meant to distract and attract his German audience at that time, that in keeping with his philosophy he had no qualms abusing or invoking God's name if such a practice were to be rewarded with power, or be justifiable "in the end." By the end of the Nazi regime, the Fuhrer was for all intents and purposes "God," and in Nazi Germany God was manifested in the persona of Hitler as Fuhrer. Righteousness was perverted into service of the Fatherland, and obedience to the Party especially. Personality cults often develop in despotic regimes, and are almost required to justify the limitless jurisdiction, authority and power of the dictator into every sphere of public and private life.

The chief concern of Catholic intellectuals over the atheism in question is its specifically anti-Christian bent, which naturally concerns His Holiness as Shepherd of the Church Universal. If a brand of anti-Americansim were to spread, no one would critisize the POTUS for expressing alarm about it ; in fact, some would even think it almost criminal if he did not warn the public in regards to it, especially if it manifested as violence. Please recall that Catholics do not believe in many secular status quo's, such as abortion, divorce, etc., and the Church - and the Pope especially - is bound by conscience, duty and office to defend the moral code of Christianity, and to protect the free and public exercise of worship by Christians, which includes especially (as I have mentioned earlier) holy living.

Pax (Latin for "Peace"),

Tim

Edited October 6, 2010 by Timothy17

[bloodyminded]

Hello my fellow Canadians.

As a Catholic Canadian I feel obliged to shed some light on the Holy Father's words here, and share with you how Catholics understand this statement.

First, please understand the Holy Father was discussing a

i) "new," and

ii) "militant"

Atheist extremism that he is especially concerned with in Europe, and also in the British isles. Very often, I should note, Pope's have spoken in a "you know who you are, and now you know we know who you are," style. The Holy Father's words are not directed against ahteists, but certain philosophies that are atheistic. Owing to the locality of the ideology he is concerned with, it is not unexpected that North Americans would be shocked by such a statement, as the thinking which the Holy Father is concerned with isn't identifiable in Canadian or American culture and media.

In Europe, there is and has been a powerful drive to de-Christianize that continent, especially in outward or public displays of Faith. Controversial court battles and rulings dealing with, for example, the banning of wearing a Cross or especially a Crucifix in public is unheard of here in North America, but for whatever reason certain nations in the E.U seem to find some legal pretext with a mandatory secularization of all public scapes, which is understood as meaning the exclusion of all and any religion. Christianity is hardly exclusive in being targeted for suprression by the law, the Burka (sp?) issue in France is another example, and I believe something similar is being debated in Spain as well.

The Holy Father knows all-too-well the sorrows of National Socialism. He was conscripted at a tender age and made to fight in Hitler's army, though fortunately he suffered an injury to his hand/fingers (if I recall correctly) during his training, which made him useless to be employed in conventional weapons handling. His stint in the army was brief as he, like so many other young men - boys, really - were desperately enlisted in the final days of Hitler's war. I believe he was stationed to a disfunctional Anti-Aircraft station in or near Berlin, but he claims that he never fired a shot from it, due to his inability (owing to his hand injury), the brevity of his service, a lack of actual munition, and also the general disrepair the station was in.

Posters on this forum are correct to note that Hitler, especially in his early career, made flagrant use of God and invoked that name specifically in his primitive literature especially. Bear in mind, however, that his target audience is Christian Germany, though he presumed that this Christianity was chiefly nominal (rather than actual or practical) due to the general disaffection and disenfranchisement of the German people following the First World War.

Now, I have to confess I find it not a little disrtubing and naive to assume that Hitler's earliest writings were somehow different from his later ones in terms of motive or intent : the National Socialist philosophy made no quarrel over lying and believed strongly in an ends justify the means progrom. The so-called "Final Solution" itself is evidence of this mentality ; therefore, I find it incredulous to imagine that simply because Hitler invoked God meant Hitler actually believed in God, least of all the Christian God : his actions and programs clearly demonstrate he had no such belief, or that he at least conveniently exempted himself from every moral obligation that constitutes the Christian's worship of God, wherein we are commanded to worship God by holy (moral) living, self-denial, service of others, etc. I therefore hold that Hitler's use of the name of God was meant to distract and attract his German audience at that time, that in keeping with his philosophy he had no qualms abusing or invoking God's name if such a practice were to be rewarded with power, or be justifiable "in the end." By the end of the Nazi regime, the Fuhrer was for all intents and purposes "God," and in Nazi Germany God was manifested in the persona of Hitler as Fuhrer. Righteousness was perverted into service of the Fatherland, and obedience to the Party especially. Personality cults often develop in despotic regimes, and are almost required to justify the limitless jurisdiction, authority and power of the dictator into every sphere of public and private life.

The chief concern of Catholic intellectuals over the atheism in question is its specifically anti-Christian bent, which naturally concerns His Holiness as Shepherd of the Church Universal. If a brand of anti-Americansim were to spread, no one would critisize the POTUS for expressing alarm about it ; in fact, some would even think it almost criminal if he did not warn the public in regards to it, especially if it manifested as violence. Please recall that Catholics do not believe in many secular status quo's, such as abortion, divorce, etc., and the Church - and the Pope especially - is bound by conscience, duty and office to defend the moral code of Christianity, and to protect the free and public exercise of worship by Christians, which includes especially (as I have mentioned earlier) holy living.

Pax (Latin for "Peace"),

Tim

A good and civil post.