When is sexual harrassment an expectation

[Argus]

Ines Sainz is a "reporter" for a Mexican television station. She's a former miss universe contestant, and model, and regularly appears in skimpy clothing, including bikinis. When she does interviews on football and soccer fields she tends to dress in skin tight, low riding jeans and tight tank tops. She's a blonde bombshell, in other words, who shows off her body as part of her persona for television.

Last week she complained she was sexually harassed while covering the New York Jets in a practice. She wasn't touched, mind you, and no one was yelling obscenities that I've been able to discern, but the players certainly noticed what she was showing off.

Now I'm not one of those who says a woman who dresses provocatively deserves to be assaulted. But let's get real here. If you walk into a dog kennel carrying fresh meat the dogs are gonna go nuts. And if you send a hot looking bimbo in skintight clothes into the locker room of the world's best paid, most arrogant, most entitled jocks you're going to get some appreciation. Would anyone really think otherwise? Does Sainz really have cause for complaint here?

Globe and Mail

[Michael Hardner]

If their jobs calls for them to work nude, side-by-side then there are still limits to behavior.

[Argus]

If their jobs calls for them to work nude, side-by-side then there are still limits to behavior.

I didn't say their behaviour was acceptable or proper. I said it was expected. Consider who your average NFL player is. You're talking about young, arrogant, cocky, testosterone filled jocks who have been coddled and given the expectation that they can have anything they want for most of their lives - especially including beautiful women.

A while ago all the sports leagues changed the rules in the name of "equality" to allow women into the locker room even when the men were changing (note; this noble egalitarian appreciation of gender neutrality most certainly does NOT exist in womens sports leagues, where men may not enter any rooms where women are undressing). That's led to expected problems, but when you combine it with a hot bimbo in super tight clothes I think a few leers and such are hardly much to complain about.

[Michael Hardner]

That's led to expected problems, but when you combine it with a hot bimbo in super tight clothes I think a few leers and such are hardly much to complain about.

I'm confused - you said that you're not saying it's acceptable or proper, but here you say the leers aren't much to complain about ?

It doesn't matter much to me, but I agree that the results are expected. The league needs to put guard rails up or soundproof waffle boards in the locker rooms.

[Shwa]

Does Sainz really have cause for complaint here?

If she felt "uncomfortable" she obviously believes she has cause. The news media, trying to tease a little titillation and luridity for their daily mash up, believes she has cause; or should have cause so long as the story maintains profitable traction. And the NFL, beholden to their own public image of the pure and chaste warriors of lore, must answer such a complaint. I guess. Because everyone has to take everything seriously - even the hotties wandering around the dangling wangs of pro football. Which reminds me of an important historical quote:

"Bailiff, whack his pee-pee!" - Cheech and Chong, 1971

But is it actual "harrassment" and should pretty girls all dolled up 'expect' it? No. But are a few uncomfortable moments truly "harrassment?" No, I wouldn't think so. But it is certainly worthy of a lawsuit that will eventually be haggled over in the Supreme Court.

[Oleg Bach]

If their jobs calls for them to work nude, side-by-side then there are still limits to behavior.

My son was fired recently from an exclusive health club - all the fronting female staff is extremely attractive - BUT a problem arose..it was just a little to much interaction on the part of stud boy with the hot staff..the little hedonist creep slept with just about all the female staff..eventually he was reprimanded because of a public display of affection ---- they said he was let go because of repeated lateness... I really don't think that was the case- it was possibly a bit of envy on the part of less attractive staff members and management..I would say that HE was sexually harrassed and fired for being sexual..a male..and a lucky one at that other than the drop in income...oh well..He will learn that there is a price to be paid for vaginal pleasure - and I hope he figures out there might be a brain and heart attatched to the female reproductive peach......oh I said "peach" - that is really sexist - I believe I will fire myself here with!

[Michael Hardner]

I believe I will fire myself here with!

Go right ahead, and be my guest.

[Argus]

I'm confused - you said that you're not saying it's acceptable or proper, but here you say the leers aren't much to complain about ?

I am generally opposed to rudeness. At the same time, if you deliberately set out to dress yourself in a way which will make men stare lustfully at you I don't think you have much right to complain when they do.

[Bonam]

Umm if they didn't touch her than wtf is the issue? Of course a good looking woman going into a guy's locker room (of all places) is gonna get looked at.

[kimmy]

A few thoughts:

first off, I am not sure why reporters need to be in the locker-room at all. If I were an athlete, I would not wish to have reporters-- of either gender-- wandering around asking questions while I shower and change.

second... it sounds as if it was not just a matter of leering. She tweeted that what they were saying made her want to cover her ears.

third... I think we all recognize that this person is not out there as a football reporter because of exceptional sports insight, and I'm pretty sure she's not out there as a champion of womens' liberation either. She's out there on behalf of her network.

If networks feel that having attractive female reporters on their show will help reach larger audiences, and the NFL is ok with broadcasters using sex to sell their product, then the teams and players will just have to cooperate. Ultimately, it's the networks that put money in their pockets.

I didn't say their behaviour was acceptable or proper. I said it was expected. Consider who your average NFL player is. You're talking about young, arrogant, cocky, testosterone filled jocks who have been coddled and given the expectation that they can have anything they want for most of their lives - especially including beautiful women.

While it's true that many pro athletes are boors of epic proportions, I don't accept that as an excuse. It's an excuse that could just as easily be made for anybody from executives at a board-room to engineers to construction workers or anywhere else where women aren't often included. I spend 8 hours a day with construction workers, and I don't accept "boys will be boys" as an excuse for bad behavior, and I don't often have to, because even my macho dumb-asses can achieve some basic decorum when I'm within earshot. The football players could, too, but choose not to.

-k

[kimmy]

I hope he figures out there might be a brain and heart attatched to the female reproductive peach......oh I said "peach" - that is really sexist - I believe I will fire myself here with!

I've always thought you were a real peach, Oleg.

-k

[Michael Hardner]

I am generally opposed to rudeness. At the same time, if you deliberately set out to dress yourself in a way which will make men stare lustfully at you I don't think you have much right to complain when they do.

I doubt that she chooses the outfits that she wears on camera. She's an on-camera person right ? If so, wardrobe does that, likely with input from above such as the director, producer etc.

[guyser]

Hit the nail on the head. Dressed or barely dressed, she does not deserve derision from the players.

One quibble tho...

If ...the NFL is ok with broadcasters using sex to sell their product,

If ?.....IF ? There is no 'if'

[guyser]

I doubt that she chooses the outfits that she wears on camera. She's an on-camera person right ? If so, wardrobe does that, likely with input from above such as the director, producer etc.

I doubt that MH.

On air in studio perhaps, but not the rest of the staff as I understand it.

But she does know how to wear jeans.

[Jack Weber]

Umm if they didn't touch her than wtf is the issue? Of course a good looking woman going into a guy's locker room (of all places) is gonna get looked at.

This si the thing...

Most female reporters that go into a mens locker room are dressed in a professional manner.They don't go in wearing tight jeans,a real tight top,and,CFM pumps...Because if you do,this might be the reaction you might get...

Having said that,a little decorum was in order...

Edited September 15, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Wilber]

This si the thing...

Most female reporters that go into a mens locker room are dressed in a professional manner.They don't go in wearing tight jeans,a real tight top,and,CFM pumps...Because if you do,this might be the reaction you might get...

Having said that,a little decorum was in order...

Couldn't agree more. If you want to be treated like a professional, act and dress the part.

[Oleg Bach]

Go right ahead, and be my guest.

Have I told you that the sweat on your chest reminds me of......NOTHING....ha ....I tried to harrass Mike but Mike simply is not my type..besides he does not shave close enough.

[kimmy]

Couldn't agree more. If you want to be treated like a professional, act and dress the part.

Do you really think this woman's employer puts her on TV to look like a professional?

-k

[bloodyminded]

Do you really think this woman's employer puts her on TV to look like a professional?

-k

The employer wanted her in a sharp, conservative business suit, but she was pretty gung-ho on making the guys salivate so she could later attack them.

[Wilber]

Do you really think this woman's employer puts her on TV to look like a professional?

-k

Then she should take it up with her employer.

[bloodyminded]

Then she should take it up with her employer.

Arguably so, but that doesn't mean the players are free of culpability. No doubt you and I agree that a woman's body becomes of great interest when wearing certain clothes...but I also think you and I agree that men are expected to comport themselves in a respectful manner, no matter how the woman in question is dressed. If I'm a slave to my desires, I'm not a slave to my own chosen behaviour.

It's not a terrific leap to expext the same from athletes; to expect ordinary respectful behaviour.

And frankly, it's easy to act respectfully. That's what a real man does: follows easy codes of proper behaviour in social settings. Anyone who cannot, is a bit of a loser, frankly.

[Wilber]

Arguably so, but that doesn't mean the players are free of culpability. No doubt you and I agree that a woman's body becomes of great interest when wearing certain clothes...but I also think you and I agree that men are expected to comport themselves in a respectful manner, no matter how the woman in question is dressed. If I'm a slave to my desires, I'm not a slave to my own chosen behaviour.

It's not a terrific leap to expext the same from athletes; to expect ordinary respectful behaviour.

And frankly, it's easy to act respectfully. That's what a real man does: follows easy codes of proper behaviour in social settings. Anyone who cannot, is a bit of a loser, frankly.

I'm not excusing the players actions but she also must take responsibility for her own. Personally, I think her manner of "work" dress shows disrespect to other women in that room who are trying to conduct themselves as professionals.

[bloodyminded]

I'm not excusing the players actions but she also must take responsibility for her own.

There are precious few scenarious with an absolute good guy and an absolute bad one. So we assess, roughly, by degree.

They are worse than she is. By a long shot.

Personally, I think her manner of "work" dress shows disrespect to other women in that room who are trying to conduct themselves as professionals.

That's not so clear, Wilber. A real stretch.

[kimmy]

I'd like to mention that Sainz herself has not pressed for any action to be taken, and has not complained about it beyond what she "tweeted".

The NFL itself has taken it upon itself to act on this.

Maybe partly because they don't want to offend female fans, although I doubt female fans are a big part of their financial plan.

But mostly I think it's just the recognition that using sex to promote their product puts money in their pockets.

-k

[Jack Weber]

There are precious few scenarious with an absolute good guy and an absolute bad one. So we assess, roughly, by degree.

They are worse than she is. By a long shot.

That's not so clear, Wilber. A real stretch.

It's not a stretch...Pam Oliver,who happens to be a fairly attractive woman,seems to be able to get the story without getting cat called...At least she has'nt said that has happened.

Now,this is more about women having access to the locker room to do their jobs,but it's salient about the attitudes coming the other way.It should also be noted,at least to me,that Oliver is one of the very few women jounalists in sports that actually knows what she's talking about so players know going in that whatever she's doing is'nt going to be some fluff piece(did I just say fluff?)

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/lance-briggs/all-/access/with-pam-oliver-after-locker-room-comments-091710

And Dave Chappelle weighs in on women and the potentially confusing nature of some of their fashion habits...