When is sexual harrassment an expectation

[Wilber]

There are precious few scenarious with an absolute good guy and an absolute bad one. So we assess, roughly, by degree.

They are worse than she is. By a long shot.

I don't know all that was said. According to the the OP's link, she got a few cat calls. She obviously dresses for a reaction and she got one. Depends on what exactly was said.

That's not so clear, Wilber. A real stretch.

Are you trying to tell me that how a person dresses and presents themselves doesn't have any bearing on how professional you see them to be? I think there are female sports reporters who do a professional job. Looking at the way Ms. Sainz dresses doesn't make that assumption jump to mind.

However, as kimmy points out, all she has done is put her views on Twitter with no intention of taking it farther. Nothing wrong with that. She is entitled to her opinion.

[bloodyminded]

I don't know all that was said. According to the the OP's link, she got a few cat calls. She obviously dresses for a reaction and she got one. Depends on what exactly was said.

Agreed.

But I, who am a highly lust-crazed male, have no problem keeping my "cat calls" to myself.

I suppose it's unfair to expect the same behaviour from rich, beloved athletes, who should not be held to the pristine standards of some ordinary physical labourer like myself. The boys can't help their behaviour; if women would dress in Burkas, the men wouldn't be forced against their will to act in such a manner.

Are you trying to tell me that how a person dresses and presents themselves doesn't have any bearing on how professional you see them to be? I think there are female sports reporters who do a professional job. Looking at the way Ms. Sainz dresses doesn't make that assumption jump to mind.

She works for an employer. So it's not clear even that how she dressed was her idea.

However, as kimmy points out, all she has done is put her views on Twitter with no intention of taking it farther. Nothing wrong with that. She is entitled to her opinion.

Certainly, and Kimmy's observation raises another point: your issue should be with the NFL, not with her. She's not pursuing any action at all.

Edited September 19, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Wilber]

Agreed.

But I, who am a highly lust-crazed male, have no problem keeping my "cat calls" to myself.

I suppose it's unfair to expect the same behaviour from rich, beloved athletes, who should not be held to the pristine standards of some ordinary physical labourer like myself. The boys can't help their behaviour; if women would dress in Burkas, the men wouldn't be forced against their will to act in such a manner.

If you dress for a reaction and get one, what is your complaint? The devil would be in the details. You can't dress like a hooker and expect people to react as though you were dressed like a nun.

She works for an employer. So it's not clear even that how she dressed was her idea.

It may not have been her idea but it was her choice ultimately. Seems to me the "I was just following orders" justification was also used by the people who ran Auschwitz.

Certainly, and Kimmy's observation raises another point: your issue should be with the NFL, not with her. She's not pursuing any action at all.

I'm not the one who has an issue.

[bloodyminded]

If you dress for a reaction and get one, what is your complaint? The devil would be in the details. You can't dress like a hooker and expect people to react as though you were dressed like a nun.

The men have no control over how she dresses. They have 100% control over how they react.

Unless they're weak-minded losers. A possibility, I admit.

It may not have been her idea but it was her choice ultimately. Seems to me the "I was just following orders" justification was also used by the people who ran Auschwitz.

Wow...that's a really excellent and accurate analogy. Provocatively-dressed women as Nazi collaborators.

In the end, I'm with you: I don't see any of this as some momentous issue, and I"m not designing to make anything huge out of it. I'm just continually surprised by the implied "boys will be boys" argument...an approach not extended to women in such scenarios. She's responsible for how she's dressed...but the men aren't responsible for the way they behave. I find it an odd approach, that's all.

Edited September 19, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Wilber]

The men have no control over how she dresses. They have 100% control over how they react.

Unless they're weak-minded losers. A possibility, I admit.

You seem to have a mad on for professional athletes because of how much they get paid and perhaps we should expect a higher standard of behavior from them than your normal testosterone saturated 20 somethings some of whom are barely out of their teens. Really though, I don't think the same age group in a beer league dressing room would act any different.

Wow...that's a really excellent and accurate analogy. Provocatively-dressed women as Nazi collaborators.

Just pointing out the blame my behavior on my employer syndrome covers a wide range. Perhaps you would prefer the Flip Wilson version which could cover both ends of this issue. "The devil made me do it".

In the end, I'm with you: I don't see any of this as some momentous issue, and I"m not designing to make anything huge out of it. I'm just continually surprised by the implied "boys will be boys" argument...an approach not extended to women in such scenarios. She's responsible for how she's dressed...but the men aren't responsible for the way they behave. I find it an odd approach, that's all.

I'm not taking sides. I think they are all responsible, both for their actions and the consequences.

[bloodyminded]

You seem to have a mad on for professional athletes because of how much they get paid and perhaps we should expect a higher standard of behavior from them than your normal testosterone saturated 20 somethings some of whom are barely out of their teens. Really though, I don't think the same age group in a beer league dressing room would act any different.

I stated, very clearly if I may so, that i expect the same behaviour from them as we should expect from those of us who aren't professional athletes.

Hell...I'm not asking for better behaviour (as i have some issues with the "role model responsibility" theme, personally). Just the same behaviour.

Not a terrible hardship for them, since i can do it myself. And I have no hate at all for athletes...I'm a sports lover, and admire athletes.

To your credit, you have not lowered yourself to the "Great men have great flaws" justification, one of the more servile theories of hero-worship I've had the misfortune to stumble upon from time to time.

Just pointing out the blame my behavior on my employer syndrome covers a wide range. Perhaps you would prefer the Flip Wilson version which could cover both ends of this issue. "The devil made me do it".

No, I'm deriding the notion of rude people claiming "the devil made me do it."

Edited September 19, 2010 by bloodyminded

[kimmy]

You seem to have a mad on for professional athletes because of how much they get paid and perhaps we should expect a higher standard of behavior from them than your normal testosterone saturated 20 somethings some of whom are barely out of their teens. Really though, I don't think the same age group in a beer league dressing room would act any different.

There is a key difference between some beer league jocks and NFL athletes: the NFL guys were at work.

-k

[Wilber]

There is a key difference between some beer league jocks and NFL athletes: the NFL guys were at work.

-k

I don't see it as a difference at all. Bad behavior is bad behavior. Ms. Sainz was at work as well. Her professional standards don't count?

[bloodyminded]

I don't see it as a difference at all. Bad behavior is bad behavior. Ms. Sainz was at work as well. Her professional standards don't count?

What bad behaviour? What offense did she cause to these men? Blue balls?

[kimmy]

I don't see it as a difference at all. Bad behavior is bad behavior. Ms. Sainz was at work as well. Her professional standards don't count?

Her dress was clearly acceptable to her employer, and as far as I can tell the NFL has no quarrel with how she was dressed either. The NFL could institute a dress code for reporters, but they won't, and we both know why.

The NFL does, on the other hand, have a policy regarding conduct towards members of the media. They went through this 20 years ago when Zeke Mowatt came up to Lisa Olson in a locker room and started stroking his Zeke Mowatt at her.

-k

[Wilber]

Her dress was clearly acceptable to her employer, and as far as I can tell the NFL has no quarrel with how she was dressed either. The NFL could institute a dress code for reporters, but they won't, and we both know why.

So she bears no responsibility for the way she dresses herself in the morning.

[Wilber]

What bad behaviour? What offense did she cause to these men? Blue balls?

It seems she didn't offend them at all. The problem seems to be that they said so.

[bloodyminded]

It seems she didn't offend them at all. The problem seems to be that they said so.

???

They said that...her dress offended them? Or do you mean something else?

I don't think I'm understanding your point here.

[wyly]

While it's true that many pro athletes are boors of epic proportions, I don't accept that as an excuse. It's an excuse that could just as easily be made for anybody from executives at a board-room to engineers to construction workers or anywhere else where women aren't often included. I spend 8 hours a day with construction workers, and I don't accept "boys will be boys" as an excuse for bad behavior, and I don't often have to, because even my macho dumb-asses can achieve some basic decorum when I'm within earshot. The football players could, too, but choose not to.

-k

you should check the web images for Ines Sainz, she's selling her butt just as any hooker does...this not an objective sports journalist looking for a story the attraction is her and her alone, she's selling her body just as any centerfold does and that's why she was hired...walking into a dressing room full of naked men the reaction from those men should be anticipated, she's selling her ass and they're buying...it's like a hooker complaining about the suggestive remarks from male clients...

[kimmy]

So she bears no responsibility for the way she dresses herself in the morning.

It's more that as far as I can tell both the NFL and her employer are entirely OK with the way she dresses, so I don't see how it's "bad behavior". I think it would be interesting to see what her employer would say if she decided to start wearing Republican housewife dresses to work.

-k

[Wilber]

???

They said that...her dress offended them? Or do you mean something else?

I don't think I'm understanding your point here.

I don't know what is so hard to understand. I don't believe anyone said the players were offended. Rather, they expressed their lack of offence in a manner that wasn't appreciated. However, a more mature response to her dress would be something like. How can I take you seriously when you dress like that? Then again, perhaps she is not there to be taken seriously. If so, why should anyone take any of this seriously? I think the whole thing is funny and typical of the tabloid world we live in these days.

[wyly]

It's more that as far as I can tell both the NFL and her employer are entirely OK with the way she dresses, so I don't see how it's "bad behavior". I think it would be interesting to see what her employer would say if she decided to start wearing Republican housewife dresses to work.

-k

but both she and her employer know what the game is, she is selling her body to her employer who uses it for ratings, if she was a respected knowledgeable sports journalist she would dress differently, and be treated differently...

[bloodyminded]

but both she and her employer know what the game is, she is selling her body to her employer who uses it for ratings, if she was a respected knowledgeable sports journalist she would dress differently, and be treated differently...

When you see a woman who is dressed in a way you consider provocative, do you make comments which any intelligent person understands might possibly make her uncomfortable?

I don't...but then, I'm not a weak-minded loser enslaved by my lust or by herd mentality.

Edited September 19, 2010 by bloodyminded

[wyly]

I don't know what is so hard to understand. I don't believe anyone said the players were offended. Rather, they expressed their lack of offence in a manner that wasn't appreciated. However, a more mature response to her dress would be something like. How can I take you seriously when you dress like that? Then again, perhaps she is not there to be taken seriously. If so, why should anyone take any of this seriously? I think the whole thing is funny and typical of the tabloid world we live in these days.

what would be the outcry if a male journalist walked into a women's dressing room for a story?...how would the women feel?...I'm all for female equality in the work force but it's not a two way street...if a woman goes into a men's dressing room she should be prepared for a reaction...

[Wilber]

It's more that as far as I can tell both the NFL and her employer are entirely OK with the way she dresses, so I don't see how it's "bad behavior". I think it would be interesting to see what her employer would say if she decided to start wearing Republican housewife dresses to work.

-k

Meaning there is no such thing as "bad behavior" if the NFL and an employer approves of it? They are the ultimate arbitrators of what constitutes good behavior in society? Those who believe in responsibility and self respect need not apply? God help us.

Who says they should wear house dresses? A woman who knows how to dress can look damn good in business wear.

Seems to me that if an employer requires her to dress like that in order to go into a men's locker room, that should be a much larger issue than the reaction she gets when she does it. Particularly for other women.

[wyly]

When you see a woman who is dressed in a way you consider provocative, do you make comments which any intelligent person understands might possibly make her uncomfortable?

if it's a hooker ya no problem it's part of the game and she expects it...walk into a locker room with naked men dressed to sell her body then yes again, this isn't a normal environment for women to be in so they should expect it if they do so in an unprofessional manner(dress)...most of us have our "work suits" we're expected to be dressed correctly for the job...

I've a daughter who dresses like a hooker and complains when men stare at her, I don't blame the men because they're men and that's what we do despite what we tell our wives/girlfriends to the contrary (as do WOMEN)....women dress themselves to be attractive when they wish the attention, they want to be looked at, when they don't they dress in a more subdued manner...it's not herd mentality it's human sexual behaviour and it's normal, we dress to attract others for sexual attention...

I don't...but then, I'm not a weak-minded loser enslaved by my lust or by herd mentality.

then you're gay or you have don't have the balls to say anything... if your a normal male naked in a dressing room and Ines Sainz walks with her butt and boobs hanging out that'll be your herd mentality that makes you feel all hot and excited...of course you could be so old that there's no lead in your pencil then it's just penis envy... Edited September 19, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

Meaning there is no such thing as "bad behavior" if the NFL and an employer approves of it? They are the ultimate arbitrators of what constitutes good behavior in society? Those who believe in responsibility and self respect need not apply? God help us.

Who says they should wear house dresses? A woman who knows how to dress can look damn good in business wear.

agreed, if she dresses conservatively/modestly like the male sports journalists there would be no issue and she would have a legitimate complaint...although if it was me naked in a dressing room I might say something should a women enter as there is a reasonable expectation for privacy in that situation...

Seems to me that if an employer requires her to dress like that in order to go into a men's locker room, that should be a much larger issue than the reaction she gets when she does it. Particularly for other women.

yes, that's why she was hired and that's why she does it she wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for the titillation factor...she has no formal education as a journalist, she's an ex model and lawyer who was dressed unprofessionally for the situation she put herself in...

[bloodyminded]

if it's a hooker ya no problem it's part of the game and she expects it.

I wouldn't talk disrespectfully to a hooker either.

But then, I like women.

then you're gay

I'm not gay, but it's interesting that you use the term as a method of insult.

Did you know that homophobes are pathetic losers?

What's wrong with our gay brothers and sisters, Wyly? come on, spell it out; educate us. Don't be chicken.

or you have don't have the balls to say anything.

Oh sure, it takes tremendous courage to make suggestive comments. O the bravery!

You don't even believe what you're typing here, Wyly. You don't believe what you're saying.

.

if your a normal male naked in a dressing room and Ines Sainz walks with her butt and boobs hanging out that'll be your herd mentality that makes you feel all hot and excited

Of course it'd be normal to feel hot and excited. I'm talking about controlling one's behaviour.

Is it that you have literacy issues, and can't read? Or is that controlling your behaviour is mysterious and impossible? Can't control your behaviour, Wyly? what the fuck's wrong with you?

...of course you could be so old that there's no lead in your pencil then it's just envy...

The only impotence we're seeing around her is that of your intelligence.

Edited September 19, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Shwa]

O the bravery!

I'm stealing that if you don't mind.

[bloodyminded]

I'm stealing that if you don't mind.

Sir, I insist!

But then, I'm probably gay (see above), so beware ulterior motives. And please don't tell my old lady.

Edited September 19, 2010 by bloodyminded