bud Posted September 20, 2010 Report Posted September 20, 2010 you 'have a problem with any position that regards international law adherence as a suicide pact'? what gibberish jingoistic bs. how did the united states' involvement in terrorism in nicaragua have anything to do with US' security? you expect anyone to take bs like that seriously? you're a fake leftist, a fake lawyer but you definitely are a radical. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
bloodyminded Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 Bloodyminded - I'll cut to the chase. I have a real problem with any position that regards international law adherence as a suicide pact. The Sandinistas also did not fight in an above-board manner. Unless Western freedom is to die the death of a thousand cuts some unappetizing responses are needed. This raises at least two crucially important matters: 1. Are you saying that US actions, including terrorism, were necessary to avoid "suicide"? (And if so, how?) 2. When is terrorism justified, and when is it not? Is anyone besides the U.S. allowed to commit to it? Are your criteria patriotic or principled? At any rate, we're no longer condemning terrorism wholesale, I see. Sometimes it's acceptable. This certainly changes the entire paradigm of discussions on terrorism, does it not? Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
jbg Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 This raises at least two crucially important matters: 1. Are you saying that US actions, including terrorism, were necessary to avoid "suicide"? (And if so, how?) 2. When is terrorism justified, and when is it not? Is anyone besides the U.S. allowed to commit to it? Are your criteria patriotic or principled? At any rate, we're no longer condemning terrorism wholesale, I see. Sometimes it's acceptable. This certainly changes the entire paradigm of discussions on terrorism, does it not? Let me make one thing clear. I believe that the West has created the best living conditions and the greatest level of freedom for mankind that has ever existed. I want the West to win, not lose, its struggles with totalitarian entities. Yes, there is room for hypocrisy. Consistency sometimes is the hobgoblin of simple minds. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jack Weber Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 The leftists should note that point when they urge "trade sanctions" against Iran rather than military action. I agree... That's why advocate for turning Tehran into glass... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
jbg Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 I agree... That's why advocate for turning Tehran into glass... I'll tell you one thing. Tehran's government is sure making that result likely. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jack Weber Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 (edited) I'll tell you one thing. Tehran's government is sure making that result likely. Then we should make it happen.. I'm going to love wathcing the Isalmofascist's have the screaming Ab Dab's after Tehran gets vapourized with the full knowledge that the Kingdom Of Saudi Arabia has already OK'd the plan for Israeli planes to be able to refuel in Saudi Arabia... The irony of that is too sweet!!! Edited September 21, 2010 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bud Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 (edited) Then we should make it happen.. I'm going to love wathcing the Isalmofascist's have the screaming Ab Dab's after Tehran gets vapourized with the full knowledge that the Kingdom Of Saudi Arabia has already OK'd the plan for Israeli planes to be able to refuel in Saudi Arabia... The irony of that is too sweet!!! on one hand, they cry, whine, yell, scream, throw a fit about ahmadinejad's comment where he supposedly says "whipe israel off the map", which he actually said 'wipe the zionist regime off the map' (not to take away from the fact that ahmadinejad is an idiot, but his idiocy is not a reason to misquote him.) and on the other hand, they sit here cheering for israel to turn a city of over 12 million into glass. what crazy, nutty and immoral hypocrites you zionist propagandists are. you truly disgust me. Edited September 21, 2010 by bud Quote http://whoprofits.org/
bloodyminded Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 (edited) Let me make one thing clear. I believe that the West has created the best living conditions and the greatest level of freedom for mankind that has ever existed. I want the West to win, not lose, its struggles with totalitarian entities. Yes, there is room for hypocrisy. Consistency sometimes is the hobgoblin of simple minds. All right, then let me make one thing clear. Simply summoning terms like "struggles with totalitarian enemies" is not an answer. It's a platitude...unless you can explain just why these tactics are necessary in each specific case. Terms like "Cold War" and "Islamofascism" are not catch-all excuses for everything we do. You refuse to get specific: you talk only about Fighting Evil, which is certainly the easy way out, isn't it? That way you don't need to struggle with difficult questions. Nor do you have to look in the mirror and say "my country sometimes acts criminally, and without decent justification, and its actions cannot always be defended by principled persons." I can do this, jbg. Easily. When Canada acts poorly, as it frequently does, I have no problem at all admititng it, and criticizing it. It gives me no enjoyment, but that's tough cookies. Only Commissars cannot do this; because Commissars are under the delusion that patriotism is the highest moral virtue. But it isn't, not at all. So again...you're openly justifying terrorism. And the reason you're doing this is because of your patriotism. Which is no decent justificaiton at all. It's indecent, frankly. So I ask again: who else has the right to commit to terrorism? to intentionally target civilians, through terrorist measures, for political gain? We now know you believe the United States has the right. The right to be murderous terrorists. I'm just curious whether anyone else has that right as well. Edited September 21, 2010 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
nicky10013 Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 I'll tell you one thing. Tehran's government is sure making that result likely. Nope, western governments are. By wanting to jump into Iran at every instance, you only give more power to the government. The only reason why the ayatollah's are in power today is because the US sheltered the Shah. During the 79 revolution the opposition was split into two groups, the anti-american clericals and the moderates who wanted democracy. The thing that brought them together is both groups despised the Shah. When Carter harboured the Shah because he was dying of cancer, it essentially drove most of the opposition into the cleric camp and drove the rest underground. What we're seeing right now in Iran are gigantic protests against government practices and only a few of them like the way the US operates. The moer the US gets involved, the more legitimate in the eyes of the Iranians the government's propaganda becomes. Any US involvement, bombing or otherwise sets back the democratic movement in Iran by decades. You'll have the same result as happened in Iraq. Went in to get rid of a dictator, left with no stable government negating all the money and lives lost in pursuit of "freedom." Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 (edited) ....Any US involvement, bombing or otherwise sets back the democratic movement in Iran by decades. You'll have the same result as happened in Iraq. Went in to get rid of a dictator, left with no stable government negating all the money and lives lost in pursuit of "freedom." Iraq has more "democracy" today than under Saddam. The US is already "involved" in Iran, and your worries about US lives and treasure are irrelevant. Edited September 21, 2010 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Jack Weber Posted September 21, 2010 Report Posted September 21, 2010 on one hand, they cry, whine, yell, scream, throw a fit about ahmadinejad's comment where he supposedly says "whipe israel off the map", which he actually said 'wipe the zionist regime off the map' (not to take away from the fact that ahmadinejad is an idiot, but his idiocy is not a reason to misquote him.) and on the other hand, they sit here cheering for israel to turn a city of over 12 million into glass. what crazy, nutty and immoral hypocrites you zionist propagandists are. you truly disgust me. What do you think "Wipe the Zionist regime off the map" means when coupled with Ahmedinijad's near denial of the Holocaust.And yes,I know Ahmedinijad is a nut...I also know he's the mouthpiece for the Islmaofascist clerics who actually want to see this anhilation of Israel take place. How do you intend to solve this issue with the Islamofascists in Tehran? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
jbg Posted September 22, 2010 Report Posted September 22, 2010 How do you intend to solve this issue with the Islamofascists in Tehran? If the Islamists love death as much as they claim to give them what they love. In spades.I am not a racist so I did not say "Muslims" or "Arabs". Just "Islamists". Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bud Posted September 22, 2010 Report Posted September 22, 2010 What do you think "Wipe the Zionist regime off the map" means when coupled with Ahmedinijad's near denial of the Holocaust.And yes,I know Ahmedinijad is a nut...I also know he's the mouthpiece for the Islmaofascist clerics who actually want to see this anhilation of Israel take place. How do you intend to solve this issue with the Islamofascists in Tehran? don't be ridiculous. if iran attacks israel, it will receive a response from the persian gulf where US submarines are standing by with enough nuclear warheads to flatten 50 hiroshimas. khamenei knows this and he knows not to fuck around. the people in power in iran want nothing but power. this power and control allows them to increase their wealth. their bank accounts are more important than the god they say they believe in. god is just a front, just like it is for the billionaire real estate developers who are building and expanding settlements in judea and samaria and east jerusalem. so what do you do in a situation like this? follow the law and get the international community behind you. everyone sees israel's inhumane and illegal behaviour towards the palestinians. no amount of propaganda and lobbying is going to change that. especially not with the way information is so easily accessible. it's time to give up and reject modern day zionist idealogy, which, if not stopped, will continue to be the fan that flames the instability in the region and will put the jews' security at risk. pretty much the whole world has accepted and is ready to accept the internationally recognized borders. tit's time to give up on the dream of greater israel. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Oleg Bach Posted September 22, 2010 Report Posted September 22, 2010 Truth served up hot and nutritional. TRUTH is nutritional to a few..but posion to the masses..That will always be the great fault of humanity. That people who seek and find the truth...are putting their lives on the line..and people who disperse the truth in system based on lies will in time have a problem suriving..."Do not throw your pearls before pigs".."for they will become offended and hate you then tear you apart like mad dogs"...............Even though the world needs soothsayers (truth sayers) ...and common survival depends on these brave ones..they are needed yet dispised..that is why we do not have good leadership..everyone is cowardly and wants EVERYBODY to like them...hence...rule by poll. Quote
Jack Weber Posted September 22, 2010 Report Posted September 22, 2010 (edited) don't be ridiculous. if iran attacks israel, it will receive a response from the persian gulf where US submarines are standing by with enough nuclear warheads to flatten 50 hiroshimas. khamenei knows this and he knows not to fuck around. the people in power in iran want nothing but power. this power and control allows them to increase their wealth. their bank accounts are more important than the god they say they believe in. god is just a front, just like it is for the billionaire real estate developers who are building and expanding settlements in judea and samaria and east jerusalem. so what do you do in a situation like this? follow the law and get the international community behind you. everyone sees israel's inhumane and illegal behaviour towards the palestinians. no amount of propaganda and lobbying is going to change that. especially not with the way information is so easily accessible. it's time to give up and reject modern day zionist idealogy, which, if not stopped, will continue to be the fan that flames the instability in the region and will put the jews' security at risk. pretty much the whole world has accepted and is ready to accept the internationally recognized borders. tit's time to give up on the dream of greater israel. I disagree... International community??? Do you ever wonder why the Russians and the crypto-Fascist Chinese balk at anything remotely sounding like biting sanctions against Iran??? It could'nt be that both are getting rich off of Tehrans Nuclear ambitions,would it? Zionism is the straw that stirs the terrorist drink...Hmmmm.... Israel,the only democracy in the region is surrounded by despotic dictators and theocracies,hellbent on Israel's destruction simply because they see it as an imposition on Arab land... Islamofascism is the problem...These are the bloodthirsty theocratic nationalists who,in many cases(Hamas,Hezbollah,Islamic Jihad) are propped up by the Iranians.The main reason is that Iranian regime is a cowardly regime that would rather subjugate its owm people,and whip up anit-Israeli sentiment to cover up the fact that it is bereft of any redeeming qualities and the "Revolution" is over!It has'nt got the guts to face Israel head on,so it uses cowards who strap bombs to themselves,or lob bombs into Israel killing innocent civilians... If they don't want a fight,they should tone down the rhetoric,or face the wrath of Israel... Again,keep in mind,Saudi Arabia has said that Israel can uses Saudi airstrips for refueling if such an air raid took place...That's is very telling about how other Islamic countries view the nutjobs in Tehran.... Edited September 22, 2010 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2010 Report Posted September 23, 2010 don't be ridiculous. if iran attacks israel, it will receive a response from the persian gulf where US submarines are standing by with enough nuclear warheads to flatten 50 hiroshimas. khamenei knows this and he knows not to fuck around. Not very likely, as the US submarines in the region do not have such capabilities. Nuclear Tomahawk went away almost 20 years ago, and "boomers" do not patrol in the Persian Gulf. American tactical nuclear assets do exist in the form of modernized B61 "Dial-a-Nuke" gravity bombs deployed to NATO partners, the closest being Turkey. Carrier and land based aircraft are also available. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Post To The Left Posted September 23, 2010 Report Posted September 23, 2010 (edited) Not very likely, as the US submarines in the region do not have such capabilities. Nuclear Tomahawk went away almost 20 years ago, and "boomers" do not patrol in the Persian Gulf. American tactical nuclear assets do exist in the form of modernized B61 "Dial-a-Nuke" gravity bombs deployed to NATO partners, the closest being Turkey. Carrier and land based aircraft are also available. Why would America nuke Iran when Israel has its own nukes and delivery systems? Not to mention why would Iran nuke Israel when any nuke would make a large part of Israel radioactive. A northern strike would create fallout over Lebanon and Iran's southern Lebanonese allies, Hezbollah. A central strike would harm those parts that are most holy to Muslims. A southern strike would make Gaza even more an unlivable space. Edited September 23, 2010 by Post To The Left Quote
M.Dancer Posted September 23, 2010 Report Posted September 23, 2010 Why would America nuke Iran when Israel has its own nukes and delivery systems? Not to mention why would Iran nuke Israel when any nuke would make a large part of Israel radioactive. A northern strike would create fallout over Lebanon and Iran's southern Lebanonese allies, Hezbollah. A central strike would harm those parts that are most holy to Muslims. A southern strike would make Gaza even more an unlivable space. The considerations of allied civilian casualties are not great amonst the true believers...heck, they are all martyrs in paradise...to wit, see saddam raining down scuds on the west bank... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Post To The Left Posted September 23, 2010 Report Posted September 23, 2010 The considerations of allied civilian casualties are not great amonst the true believers...heck, they are all martyrs in paradise...to wit, see saddam raining down scuds on the west bank... Saddam was never a true believer and he never used WMDs in his scuds (when he could have) just conventional weapons. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 23, 2010 Report Posted September 23, 2010 Saddam was never a true believer and he never used WMDs in his scuds (when he could have) just conventional weapons. Well isn't that nice.....a fine gentleman he was. Boom! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Post To The Left Posted September 23, 2010 Report Posted September 23, 2010 Well isn't that nice.....a fine gentleman he was. Boom! He was anything but a fine gentleman but he was anything but religious. Saddam didn't use WMD because he feared Israeli retaliation. That is why an attack on Israel by another State is so such a low threat. Israel has the most powerful military in the region and combined with its nuclear weapons no State would ever dare a WMD attack. Quote
bud Posted September 23, 2010 Report Posted September 23, 2010 I disagree... International community??? Do you ever wonder why the Russians and the crypto-Fascist Chinese balk at anything remotely sounding like biting sanctions against Iran??? It could'nt be that both are getting rich off of Tehrans Nuclear ambitions,would it? i'm not talking about the governments around the world. i'm talking about the people around the world. with the exception of perhaps most american people, people around the world are aware of israel's atrocities. china and russia are 'sorta' behind iran because of geopolitical and economic reasons. it's in their interest to 'sorta' back iran without harming their other interests (u.s. and israel.) 1 out of 7 israeli is russian and there is a lot of jewish interest in russia. u.s. is china's number 1 consumer and a lot of other factors come into the relationships. Zionism is the straw that stirs the terrorist drink...Hmmmm.... zionism is responsible for bringing jews from around the world to the region and zionism is also responsible for creating the biggest population of refugees in the world. you may want to present that as something insignificant and deter attention from what zionism has created, but anyone who is realistic knows better. Israel,the only democracy in the region democracy is a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges. i would say that would be sort of what israel is if you don't count the 20% arab population that live in israel. regardless of this label of democracy, israel is an aggressive rogue state who has continuously broken international law. is surrounded by despotic dictators and theocracies,hellbent on Israel's destruction simply because they see it as an imposition on Arab land... repeating it may make yourself and other hasbara-bots actually believe this, but one look at reality and any honest person would realize that israel is surrounded by countries who are not a threat. egypt couldn't be more of a friendlier dictatorship to israel. they even agreed to help with the blockade of gaza. jordan is also another very friendly dictatorship which is also not a threat. lebanon has been nothing but a victim to israel's aggression. the only threat coming out of lebanon is hezbollah and they're nothing more than a populist guerrilla group that only exists as a result of israel's aggressive behaviour towards lebanon. the last country that surrounds israel is syria who is too weak to do anything and the tension they once had between each other continues to decrease. the major tension you see are coming from the people of the surrounding countries who cannot be as forgiving as their american/israeli backed dictatorship governments of israel's treatment of palestinians. Islamofascism is the problem...These are the bloodthirsty theocratic nationalists who,in many cases(Hamas,Hezbollah,Islamic Jihad) are propped up by the Iranians.The main reason is that Iranian regime is a cowardly regime that would rather subjugate its owm people,and whip up anit-Israeli sentiment to cover up the fact that it is bereft of any redeeming qualities and the "Revolution" is over! your comments are true to a point. i would have to agree that the iranian government will use anything to take away attention from its treatment of its own people. but the anti-israel sentiment is a legitimate sentiment that has been created by israel's own actions. it's a view shared by the iranian people and the government that suppresses them. this feeling is also shared by many around the world. much like the feelings most people had around the world towards apartheid south africa. It has'nt got the guts to face Israel head on,so it uses cowards who strap bombs to themselves,or lob bombs into Israel killing innocent civilians... this is i think the 4th cliche hasbara-bot comment you've made. which suicide attacks has iran been behind? palestinians who have committed suicide attacks in the past have done it out of desperation. one may disagree with the action, but anyone who, again, looks at the situation logically, understands the desperation in the act committed by palestinians. one of israel's best known prime minister took part in terrorist acts against the british occupier and also towards the native palesitnians before israel became a country. If they don't want a fight,they should tone down the rhetoric,or face the wrath of Israel... when has iran said they want a fight with israel? all i hear is how israel wants to attack iran and iran responding with how they're going to defend themselves. you're once again giving a pass to the aggressor and the only country in the middle east with nuclear weapons. Again,keep in mind,Saudi Arabia has said that Israel can uses Saudi airstrips for refueling if such an air raid took place...That's is very telling about how other Islamic countries view the nutjobs in Tehran.... it's actually an indication how little you know about the politics of the region and how you're unable to distinguish between different factions of muslims. the photo of george bush and the saudi crown prince holding hands is a good indication of where saudi arabia stands. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
scribblet Posted September 23, 2010 Author Report Posted September 23, 2010 Israel's atrocities - oh right - gotcha - Hamas and other terrorists haven't committed any or attacked Israeli citizens with impunity... naw, never of course. Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
M.Dancer Posted September 23, 2010 Report Posted September 23, 2010 Israel's atrocities - oh right - gotcha - Hamas and other terrorists haven't committed any or attacked Israeli citizens with impunity... naw, never of course. Israeli atrocities? Yeah, democracy is an atrocity is the eyes of the arab terrorist lobby... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
nicky10013 Posted September 23, 2010 Report Posted September 23, 2010 Israeli atrocities? Yeah, democracy is an atrocity is the eyes of the arab terrorist lobby... Wow. So naive. So naive. Quote
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