Sometimes the doctors let you down

[Bonam]

The reality is, most of those people would be wasting their money. You can obtain good care in Canada. Sometimes, the waits are too long, but, overall, the system serves the populace well.

Sure, most of the time you can get good care. Why does it offend you if some people choose to, as you put it, "waste their money". You should be happy, I mean, if they go to the US and have their health care needs taken care of there, that's load being taken off our system. True believers in socialized medicine get way too defensive soon as someone even hints that some other systems might possibly be ok as well.

[Wild Bill]

Shh, don't shatter their illusions with a little something called REALITY. That might spoil their day!

Logical fallacy, Sir B! Nobody's talking about when a system works. They're talking about when it fails. The question becomes is the number of failures significant and is it an indication that the system needs positive changes or maintenance.

The equivalent of the "my brother got fast care" argument is the "my Toyota never locked its gas pedal"! After all, most Toyotas have always worked fine! The sticking accelerator problem was only for a small percentage of cars. However, considering how many Toyotas have been sold that small percentage represents a large real number.

How many visits to a Canadian hospital ER are there every day? If YOU happened to experience one of the "bad ones" how would you feel if someone told you "I was alright, Jack! Your experience must have been a fluke! Maybe you imagined it! Your pain must have been anecdotal!"?

Meanwhile, politicians and hospital managers everywhere breathe a sigh of relief and say "Dodged another one! No need to fix anything!".

[bush_cheney2004]

The reality is, most of those people would be wasting their money. You can obtain good care in Canada. Sometimes, the waits are too long, but, overall, the system serves the populace well.

It's their choice to spend the money for faster treatment and better facilities. Several provinces do this as a matter of policy with standing contracts. So are provinces "wasting their money"?

[Pliny]

personally I think all the waiting time talk is all BS, if the procedure is elective you wait your turn it's not like your going to die waiting for knee surgery...

my brother last month suddenly took ill, on a Tuesday evening he was throwing up blood, Wednesday he saw a doctor, Thursday he was admitted to a hospital, by Friday he had surgery for cancer...so where's the wait? 3 days from initial contact until surgery...if it's dire you are helped immediately...we have healthcare equal to best anywhere...

Do you expect an anecdotal story to be accepted as a valid argument?

[wyly]

Logical fallacy, Sir B! Nobody's talking about when a system works. They're talking about when it fails. The question becomes is the number of failures significant and is it an indication that the system needs positive changes or maintenance.

The equivalent of the "my brother got fast care" argument is the "my Toyota never locked its gas pedal"! After all, most Toyotas have always worked fine! The sticking accelerator problem was only for a small percentage of cars. However, considering how many Toyotas have been sold that small percentage represents a large real number.

How many visits to a Canadian hospital ER are there every day? If YOU happened to experience one of the "bad ones" how would you feel if someone told you "I was alright, Jack! Your experience must have been a fluke! Maybe you imagined it! Your pain must have been anecdotal!"?

Meanwhile, politicians and hospital managers everywhere breathe a sigh of relief and say "Dodged another one! No need to fix anything!".

and I had a brake and gas pedal on my ford both detach while driving, are all fords bad? no and I'd still consider buying another...shit happens things don't always go perfectly...and the number of Toyota's with sticking pedals is a tiny fraction of the millions made...

anecdotal wait stories to the contrary are no more valid than mine, in truth it's just the opposite ...for every story of mistreatment you come up with there are hundreds of thousands of cases go very well but aren't newsworthy, my brothers prompt treatment will never make the newspapers of TV, while some annoyed granny who has to wait 6 months for elective knee surgery gets headline news...

Canadians have excellent healthcare which is backed up up by stats for average lifespan...is it perfect? no, nothing ever is...can it be better? of course... but as it is it's very very good...

[Sir Bandelot]

Logical fallacy, Sir B! Nobody's talking about when a system works. They're talking about when it fails. The question becomes is the number of failures significant and is it an indication that the system needs positive changes or maintenance.

Meanwhile, politicians and hospital managers everywhere breathe a sigh of relief and say "Dodged another one! No need to fix anything!".

Actually the system is constantly undergoing maintenance and improvement to meet new requirements. There are problems however. There is no health care system in the world without problems. There is no system without some people having a bad experience. So your question is a valid one, Wild Bill, are the number of failures significant and what can be done about them.

In principle, any failure is significant. This is about human lives, not fridges and stoves. I know there are incident reporting and review mechanisms in place for any patient-related incidents that occur in a hospital. But it is hard to ascertain the real truth in matters like this, especially when there are people like Bush_Cheney in the world...

Edited September 6, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[Guest American Woman]

and I had a brake and gas pedal on my ford both detach while driving, are all fords bad? no and I'd still consider buying another...shit happens things don't always go perfectly...and the number of Toyota's with sticking pedals is a tiny fraction of the millions made...

Yet they recalled them. Because the fact is, no matter how "tiny a fraction" it involved, it was a serious, possibly fatal, problem. Little comfort to those with the sticking pedals that the majority were ok.

I wouldn't want to take my chances with it. I'd want it fixed.

I can just imagine the outcry, too, if Toyota simply said, 'our product is great! No reason to recall, and no reason to do anything differently. We're going to just keep making them the same way. And if some people are killed or seriously injured as a result, most people aren't. So everything's great just the way it is.'

And I'm sure everyone would have remained very happy with their purchase and people would have remained confident in Toyota and kept buying their cars.....

[Pliny]

anecdotal wait stories to the contrary are no more valid than mine, in truth it's just the opposite ...for every story of mistreatment you come up with there are hundreds of thousands of cases go very well but aren't newsworthy, my brothers prompt treatment will never make the newspapers of TV, while some annoyed granny who has to wait 6 months for elective knee surgery gets headline news...

My brothers-in-law six month wait for treatment for prostate cancer won't make headline news either. For every annoyed Granny who gets headline news there are thousands of cases that don't make the newspapers or tv. It is just too common place.

Canadians have excellent healthcare which is backed up up by stats for average lifespan...is it perfect? no, nothing ever is...can it be better? of course... but as it is it's very very good...

It sits, according to the UN and all the studies you want to cite, at thirtieth among developed countries. That - is very, very good?

Your standards are fairly mediocre.

[Argus]

Someone has to make a choice. Would you prefer Soviet bureaucrats, or people who choose for themselves?

Apparently you didn't read the Star article, August. In this case it was the Soviet bureaucrats in Toronto who made the decision.

[Argus]

personally I think all the waiting time talk is all BS, if the procedure is elective you wait your turn it's not like your going to die waiting for knee surgery...

Riiiight. I mean, so what if you can't get your heart valve replaced, or get cancer treatment without a three or four month wait. It's not like that'll kill you! And so what if you have to wait ten or fifteen hours at the ER to get seen by a doctor. It's not like that's important or anything.

I have a theory that anyone on this web site who has a "W" starting his name. It has to do with inbreeding and poor childhood nutrition.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Argus

[wyly]

Yet they recalled them. Because the fact is, no matter how "tiny a fraction" it involved, it was a serious, possibly fatal, problem. Little comfort to those with the sticking pedals that the majority were ok.

I wouldn't want to take my chances with it. I'd want it fixed.

I can just imagine the outcry, too, if Toyota simply said, 'our product is great! No reason to recall, and no reason to do anything differently. We're going to just keep making them the same way. And if some people are killed or seriously injured as a result, most people aren't. So everything's great just the way it is.'

and your point is what?...I had no issues with my two Toyota's, I received a recall notice for one and on the next scheduled service the gas pedal was changed ...my Honda also had a suspect part replaced at no charge as well without any notification...I've nothing but excellent service from both Toyota and Honda that's why they have such a loyal customer base...

sometimes even with the best intentions things are missed, in the OP doctors were accused of letting down M Douglas which is absurd, not every problem whether a mechanical problem in a car or a health problem in a human can be 100% predictable, identifiable or treatable...

what's really absurd is how some here twist an american health issue with Douglass and top notch MD's he can afford and twist it into a condemnation of Canadian Healthcare...

And I'm sure everyone would have remained very happy with their purchase and people would have remained confident in Toyota and kept buying their cars.....

yup that's why Toyota still has the top selling car in the USA Edited September 7, 2010 by wyly

[August1991]

You mean like insurance company bureaucrats?

Yes, Bloodyminded. Somebody has to make a decision and it is foolish to pretend that the decision doesn't exist.

Apparently you didn't read the Star article, August. In this case it was the Soviet bureaucrats in Toronto who made the decision.

I read the article, Argus. And that was the point of my comment. In Canada, we have in effect Soviet bureaucrats taking these decisions. And these decisions are increasingly arbitrary and have lost most of their impact on incentives.

When Toyota engineers make a mistake and Toyota must recall millions of vehicles, this costs shareholders alot of money and you can be sure that Toyota managers are more careful the next time.

What incentives exist within Canada's health system?

[Guest American Woman]

and your point is what?...I had no issues with my two Toyota's, I received a recall notice for one and on the next scheduled service the gas pedal was changed ...my Honda also had a suspect part replaced at no charge as well without any notification...I've nothing but excellent service from both Toyota and Honda that's why they have such a loyal customer base...

Exactly. It's because they don't have your attitude. They didn't just say, 'well, most are ok, so why worry? why do anything different?' They made great cars for years, and then ran into a problem. A big problem. And they did something about it. They didn't just let it slide, saying most cars have been ok. Are you getting it yet?

yup that's why Toyota still has the top selling car in the USA

I'll never buy anything else. However, if they would have had your attitude, they would have lost a customer.

Your healthcare system needs fixing. It's not the wonderful 'great just the way it is' system that you try to portray it to be. It has a pretty low rating among the western nations that do have national healthcare. Why do you think that is?

[wyly]

I'll never buy anything else. However, if they would have had your attitude, they would have lost a customer.

and if I were Toyota dealer I'd never sell one to you...

Your healthcare system needs fixing. It's not the wonderful 'great just the way it is' system that you try to portray it to be. It has a pretty low rating among the western nations that do have national healthcare. Why do you think that is?

and the CIA factbook Canada ranks 7th in life expectancy and the USA 49th just ahead of Albania at 50. Why do you think that is?

[Bonam]

and the CIA factbook Canada ranks 7th in life expectancy and the USA 49th just ahead of Albania at 50. Why do you think that is?

Cause the US has higher rates of violence, obesity, smoking, poverty, etc. These are all factors that reduce life expectancy but are largely unrelated to the health care system.

and if I were Toyota dealer I'd never sell one to you...

If you were a Toyota dealer you'd investigate the internet postings of your potential customers to determine if they've said something you disagree with before selling to them? Think you'd go out of business pretty quick.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Bonam

[Guest American Woman]

and if I were Toyota dealer I'd never sell one to you...

As sad as that makes me feel, I can only hope actual Canadian Toyota dealers, ie: successful business people, don't feel that way -- because I have my heart set on going to Canada to buy my next Toyota so I can pay a lot more for it than I pay here.

and the CIA factbook Canada ranks 7th in life expectancy and the USA 49th just ahead of Albania at 50. Why do you think that is?

First of all, "expectancy" and "reality" are two different things. Sort of like "don't count your chickens before they hatch," so I won't get too excited about the prospect of some Canadians perhaps living a couple of years longer than some Americans. Because by the same token, some Americans will be living longer than some Canadians.

But more to the point, Bonam hit the nail on the head. The factors he mentioned, plus things like race and genetics, an adventurous lifestyle vs. a sedentary one, etc. all affects one's longevity. If you think just being a Canadian/living in Canada is going to give you the edge to living a longer life, all I can do is laugh. As an individual, I make smart choices, I have a good lifestyle, and I live in a low crime/low pollution environment. And that's what's going to determine how long I live; not being a Canadian/living in Canada vs. being an American/living in the United States.

Edited September 7, 2010 by American Woman

[Smallc]

Riiiight. I mean, so what if you can't get your heart valve replaced, or get cancer treatment without a three or four month wait.

Some provinces do have cancer waits that are slightly too long. Very few have heart surgery weights that are longer than anywhere else in the world. Ontario is about 2 weeks on average for all heart surgeries. That includes elective and emergency.

[Pliny]

and the CIA factbook Canada ranks 7th in life expectancy and the USA 49th just ahead of Albania at 50. Why do you think that is?

I used to wonder about those statistics as well. It is the way the statistics are compiled for each country. For instance, the US includes every infant death in it's infant mortality total. Most countries don't count still births, the US does. That contributes heavily to raising the age of life expectancy.

There are lies, there are damned lies and then there are statistics.

[August1991]

I used to wonder about those statistics as well. It is the way the statistics are compiled for each country. For instance, the US includes every infant death in it's infant mortality total. Most countries don't count still births, the US does. That contributes heavily to raising the age of life expectancy.

There are lies, there are damned lies and then there are statistics.

Pliny, you are correct.

The CIA merely compiles data from national statistical agencies. The CIA does not attempt to make statistics comparable, or even verify the reported statistics.

We recently had a debate in Canada about the veracity of census forms. Based on that debate, I am amazed that anyone would believe any official statistic published by the Cuban government. (If Harper can manipulate Census forms, what would Castro do with mortality stats?)

IOW, I simply don't believe Cuban stats of child mortality and longevity. I think Cuban government statisticians invent the numbers.

[wyly]

As sad as that makes me feel, I can only hope actual Canadian Toyota dealers, ie: successful business people, don't feel that way -- because I have my heart set on going to Canada to buy my next Toyota so I can pay a lot more for it than I pay here.

First of all, "expectancy" and "reality" are two different things. Sort of like "don't count your chickens before they hatch," so I won't get too excited about the prospect of some Canadians perhaps living a couple of years longer than some Americans. Because by the same token, some Americans will be living longer than some Canadians.

But more to the point, Bonam hit the nail on the head. The factors he mentioned, plus things like race and genetics, an adventurous lifestyle vs. a sedentary one, etc. all affects one's longevity. If you think just being a Canadian/living in Canada is going to give you the edge to living a longer life, all I can do is laugh. As an individual, I make smart choices, I have a good lifestyle, and I live in a low crime/low pollution environment. And that's what's going to determine how long I live; not being a Canadian/living in Canada vs. being an American/living in the United States.

all I can do is laugh at your delusions...the lies and myths people tell to delude themselves are endless, tell us what shade of pink is the sky where you live?

[Pliny]

But more to the point, Bonam hit the nail on the head. The factors he mentioned, plus things like race and genetics, an adventurous lifestyle vs. a sedentary one, etc. all affects one's longevity. If you think just being a Canadian/living in Canada is going to give you the edge to living a longer life, all I can do is laugh. As an individual, I make smart choices, I have a good lifestyle, and I live in a low crime/low pollution environment. And that's what's going to determine how long I live; not being a Canadian/living in Canada vs. being an American/living in the United States.

all I can do is laugh at your delusions...the lies and myths people tell to delude themselves are endless, tell us what shade of pink is the sky where you live?

What are smart choices then, wyly? What's a good lifestyle? Where's a low crime/low pollution environment?

American Woman, I think wyly is telling us we don't have to make any choices. Living in Canada allows the government to make those choices for us and presto we live longer than people in most other countries - I can't figure out why we are number seven though?

[bloodyminded]

Yes, Bloodyminded. Somebody has to make a decision and it is foolish to pretend that the decision doesn't exist.

I agree. That was my point.

You were the one criticizing the fact.

???

[jbg]

Actor Mike Douglas is fighting throat cancer and he became aware something was wrong early this summer and went to a doctor but the doctor said they couldn't find anything but later after a biopsy cancer was found, maybe too late for Mike. He was told his cancer was cause by his drinking and smoking. Miracles do happen and hopefully Mike will get a second chance at life. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/100901/entertainment/centertainment_us_douglas

I doubt that the two months made that big a difference. Usually by then the cancer's got a significant head start. If it was discovered two (2) years ago maybe he'd be O.K. Or maybe the quiescient two years would have created a false "survival" record.

Having lost a father to cancer at age 15, after they said, at the initial operation that "they got it all" I am actually not an optimist on the subject of early detection. He wiped himself after defacating, once, and the tissue had some blood on it. He was already fatally ill.

I do not think medicine failed Michael Douglas; I think smoking did.

[pfezziwig]

Unfortunately this highlights doctors over confidence and patients god like perception of their services, never daring to question their authority. They're only human and make mistakes just like everyone else. Get a second opinion if you have any doubt.