First the Berlin Wall - Now Iran?

[M.Dancer]

Rising nationalism in the Baltics, the Caucuses, the Ukraine and Belarus was a result of Glastnost and Perestroika.

Pray tell...do you think Glasnost arose in a vaccum or was it a response to something in particular?

Furthermore, it's not an apples and eggs comparison to the USSR and NK. Cuba is yet another example.

Cuba has exports..Cuba has been liberalizing its economic structure since being cut off from Soviet aid. Cuba has Venuzuela suppling discount oil. Cuba has tourist industry much needed foreign currencies. Cuba is not North Korea.

North Korea doesn't have a communist government because it's homogeneous.

That wasn't the point. Its homogenous nature precludes divergent nationalism tugging away at the seams...North Korea is not the Soviet Union.

the collapse of the Soviet union arguing that it was not inevitable are not supported by the comparisons between Cuba and North Korea.

[DogOnPorch]

M.Dancer: Pray tell...do you think Glasnost arose in a vaccum or was it a response to something in particular?

Several hundreds of thousands were involved in clean-up. Hundreds of thousands were evacuated never to return. Entire stretches of forest turned red and died. But, sure, nobody noticed until Gorby told 'em.

Always an interesting webpage...

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chernobyl-land-of-the-wolves/

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chernobyl-revisited/

[nicky10013]

Pray tell...do you think Glasnost arose in a vaccum or was it a response to something in particular?

Gorbachev was the protege of Yuri Andropov, who was himself a reformer. When Andropov, then Chernenko died, it was Gorbachev's turn to ratchet up the types of small forms of reform the two geriatric leaders tried to implement. The problem politically was that the entrenchment of the technocratic bureaucracy would be hostile to a lot of the reforms, as well as a good portion of the politburo. This is where glasnost came in. Gorbachev figured if he relaxed censorship, he could outflank the party with public opinion to implement his programme of Perestroika. It worked, but the reforms and freedom of speech quickly gained momentum to the point where Gorbachev couldn't control it's outcome. The fact that it went out of control because of deep seeded nationalism in the Baltics, the Ukraine and the Caucuses doesn't mean that those were Glasnost's causes to begin with. It was purely political.

Cuba has exports..Cuba has been liberalizing its economic structure since being cut off from Soviet aid. Cuba has Venuzuela suppling discount oil. Cuba has tourist industry much needed foreign currencies. Cuba is not North Korea.

Despite the tourist industry and the paltry exports, Cuba is horrendously poor and it's economy little more efficient than the Soviet economy of the late 80s. The economy isn't an answer as to why the USSR collapsed.

That wasn't the point. Its homogenous nature precludes divergent nationalism tugging away at the seams...North Korea is not the Soviet Union.

And as I mentioned, nationalism didn't pull apart the Soviet Union until the politburo made the fatal mistake of lifting censorship. Just like how Yugoslavia was ripped apart after the death of Tito and the liberalisation of the system. Even then, the death of the system was just as much caused by the realisation that 80 years of Soviet Propaganda was a lie just as much as loyalty to their own republics. The Soviet Union and everything in it was based on Lenin. All policies and accomplishments were his. When be became discredited, the Soviet Union was lost. His fall from grace had little to do with nationalism; rather, it was a realisation that in comparison to the west, communist economics had failed and the horrors of Stalinism in the 30s. Like I said, the major form of dissent after Glasnost was western supermarket shopping flyers where it was visible to all that western stores were fully stocked with wonderful goods never seen before in the Soviet Union. The 16 successor republics merely filled the power vacuum the imploding party left in it's wake. So, while "nationalism" had something to do with the final collapse, the nationalism was more to do with politics and obtaining more and more power for incompetents like Yeltsin and others who became dictators of the other successor states who ended up taking power after December 25th, 1991.

the collapse of the Soviet union arguing that it was not inevitable are not supported by the comparisons between Cuba and North Korea.

Economically it is supported.

Edited August 25, 2010 by nicky10013

[nicky10013]

Several hundreds of thousands were involved in clean-up. Hundreds of thousands were evacuated never to return. Entire stretches of forest turned red and died. But, sure, nobody noticed until Gorby told 'em.

Always an interesting webpage...

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chernobyl-land-of-the-wolves/

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chernobyl-revisited/

You're still thinking in terms of western democratic values. There was no such thing as freedom of movement so no people could get in and out of the affected areas without state approval. No one could talk to those people without the state knowing as they actively bugged the apartments and telephones of people who were of interest. Telephones in and out of areas were controlled in the past and up until the day where people were finally being let out of exile in Siberia. Mail was tightly controlled as well. The Soviet State was easily large enough to cover up a disaster such as this.

[DogOnPorch]

You're still thinking in terms of western democratic values. There was no such thing as freedom of movement so no people could get in and out of the affected areas without state approval. No one could talk to those people without the state knowing as they actively bugged the apartments and telephones of people who were of interest. Telephones in and out of areas were controlled in the past and up until the day where people were finally being let out of exile in Siberia. Mail was tightly controlled as well. The Soviet State was easily large enough to cover up a disaster such as this.

Pure speculation. People talk...including Soviet citizens in the 1980s.

[nicky10013]

Pure speculation. People talk...including Soviet citizens in the 1980s.

What's pure speculation?

[DogOnPorch]

What's pure speculation?

That the Soviet Union was air-tight and iron clad. You could buy blue jeans and AC/DC records if you made the appropriate connections.

[nicky10013]

That the Soviet Union was air-tight and iron clad. You could buy blue jeans and AC/DC records if you made the appropriate connections.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there was dissent. However, how many people had those connections? Furthermore, right up until 86-87 when Glasnost came in with rehabilitation of political prisoners, people were still being sent off to exile in remote northern towns of Siberia. It wasn't air tight and iron clad, but if you got on the bad side of the party or the party wanted to hush something up, they certainly had the power to do so.

[M.Dancer]

Gorbachev was the protege of Yuri Andropov, who was himself a reformer. When Andropov, then Chernenko died, it was Gorbachev's turn to ratchet up the types of small forms of reform the two geriatric leaders tried to implement. The problem politically was that the entrenchment of the technocratic bureaucracy would be hostile to a lot of the reforms, as well as a good portion of the politburo. This is where glasnost came in. Gorbachev figured if he relaxed censorship, he could outflank the party with public opinion to implement his programme of Perestroika. It worked, but the reforms and freedom of speech quickly gained momentum to the point where Gorbachev couldn't control it's outcome. The fact that it went out of control because of deep seeded nationalism in the Baltics, the Ukraine and the Caucuses doesn't mean that those were Glasnost's causes to begin with. It was purely political.

You failed to answer the question...why did it emerge...saying that Gorby was continuing theprocess is not an answer...

By the time Gorbachev ushered in the process that would lead to the dismantling of the Soviet administrative command economy through his programs of glasnost (political openness), uskoreniye (speed-up of economic development) and perestroika (political and economic restructuring) announced in 1986, the Soviet economy suffered from both hidden inflation and pervasive supply shortages aggravated by an increasingly open black market that undermined the official economy.[citation needed] Additionally, the costs of superpower status—the military, space program, subsidies to client states—were out of proportion to the Soviet economy. The new wave of industrialization based upon information technology had left the Soviet Union desperate for Western technology and credits in order to counter its increasing backwardness.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1985%E2%80%931991)

Despite the tourist industry and the paltry exports, Cuba is horrendously poor and it's economy little more efficient than the Soviet economy of the late 80s. The economy isn't an answer as to why the USSR collapsed.

See above

And as I mentioned, nationalism didn't pull apart the Soviet Union until the politburo made the fatal mistake of lifting censorship.

Solidarity was founded in 1980

[DogOnPorch]

Oh, don't get me wrong, there was dissent. However, how many people had those connections? Furthermore, right up until 86-87 when Glasnost came in with rehabilitation of political prisoners, people were still being sent off to exile in remote northern towns of Siberia. It wasn't air tight and iron clad, but if you got on the bad side of the party or the party wanted to hush something up, they certainly had the power to do so.

Agreement. However, they couldn't hide Chernobyl any more than they could hide Barbarossa...and they tried there, too.

[nicky10013]

Agreement. However, they couldn't hide Chernobyl any more than they could hide Barbarossa...and they tried there, too.

No, they didn't. They mobilized the country for war.

[nicky10013]

You failed to answer the question...why did it emerge...saying that Gorby was continuing theprocess is not an answer...

You failed to read the answer.

This is where glasnost came in. Gorbachev figured if he relaxed censorship, he could outflank the party with public opinion to implement his programme of Perestroika. It worked, but the reforms and freedom of speech quickly gained momentum to the point where Gorbachev couldn't control it's outcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1985%E2%80%931991)

See above

How does this go against the point I was trying to make? This only proves that the USSR needed Gorbachev's reforms, despite them being unpopular. Thus, he needed to outflank the party and the politburo with Glasnost, which ended up in the short term being successful.

Solidarity was founded in 1980

And was crushed in 1981. It made a comeback when it realized the Polish Government was no longer recieving moral or military support from Gorbachev.

Edited August 25, 2010 by nicky10013

[DogOnPorch]

No, they didn't. They mobilized the country for war.

Stalin forbade any response to the initial German assaults even as the Luftwaffe pounded the Red Air Force to dust on the ground. Fact was he didn't want to believe the Germans were attacking...and the opening battles (read: bloody over-runs) from the 22nd to about the 25th of June reflected this. Few dared spoil Stalin's self-induced delusion as the Purge was still pretty fresh in everyone's mind and the results of invoking Stalin's wrath well known.

Edited August 25, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[nicky10013]

Stalin forbade any response to the initial German assaults even as the Luftwaffe pounded the Red Air Force to dust on the ground. Fact was he didn't want to believe the Germans were attacking...and the openning battles (read: bloody over-runs) from the 22nd to about the 25th of June reflected this. Few dared spoil Stalin's self-induced delusion as the Purge was still pretty fresh in everyone's mind and the results of invoking Stalin's wrath well known.

He refused to believe the intelligence coming in saying the Germans were going to invade, but he didn't necessarily stall, and certainly not for the reasons you stated.

In the initial hours after the German attack commenced, Stalin hesitated, wanting to ensure that the German attack was sanctioned by Hitler, rather than the unauthorized action of a rogue general.[12]

Accounts by Nikita Khrushchev and Anastas Mikoyan claim that, after the invasion, Stalin retreated to his dacha in despair for several days and did not participate in leadership decisions.[135] However, some documentary evidence of orders given by Stalin contradicts these accounts, leading some historians to speculate that Kruschev's account is inaccurate.[136]

Edited August 25, 2010 by nicky10013

[Jack Weber]

Dog..

There is also the longstanding Russian retreat strategy of the Scortched Earth Policy where the army retreats to a point where it has sufficient enough numbers to counter attack,burning evrrything in the process during the retreat.Once those numbers are sufficient,the army comes out swinging,and the opposing army (after advancing for hundreds of miles through barren land),is essentially exhuasted and cannot fight back...

This is basically what happened by the time the NAZI army reached Stalingrad...

[DogOnPorch]

He refused to believe the intelligence coming in saying the Germans were going to invade,

Agreement. He personally wanted 2-3 more years of the MolotovRibbentrop Pact to revamp. But the actual work was done at a snail's pace least Hitler be offended by the preparations. Many fortresses and airfields in the forward military districts remained uncompleted as of June 1941.

but he didn't necessarily stall, and certainly not for the reasons you stated.

I think you'll find that during the first few days of the operation, this policy certainly did lead to stalling and disaster. Frontline generals in the forward Russian divisions begged to be able to return artillery fire only to be told to 'wait and see' re: rogue German attacks (as you mention).

Dog..

There is also the longstanding Russian retreat strategy of the Scortched Earth Policy where the army retreats to a point where it has sufficient enough numbers to counter attack,burning evrrything in the process during the retreat.Once those numbers are sufficient,the army comes out swinging,and the opposing army (after advancing for hundreds of miles through barren land),is essentially exhuasted and cannot fight back...

This is basically what happened by the time the NAZI army reached Stalingrad...

Yes...as a former East Front wargamer, I'm quite familiar with the tactic as I usually played the Russians.

These were the two we fought it out on the most back in the 1980s.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8993/fire-in-the-east

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/7690/scorched-earth

Which were part of this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(wargame)

They still sit in my closet...massive things (map was 5'x 10')... worth about $1000 Canadian each!

Edited August 25, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[M.Dancer]

How does this go against the point I was trying to make? This only proves that the USSR needed Gorbachev's reforms, despite them being unpopular. Thus, he needed to outflank the party and the politburo with Glasnost, which ended up in the short term being successful.

Because the economy was verging on failure. C|ommunism had failed and they needed to restructure the whole shebang...

And was crushed in 1981. It made a comeback when it realized the Polish Government was no longer recieving moral or military support from Gorbachev.

It was the start...it gave motivation to the Baltic states, to the Ukraine...it was part of the catalyst that ended the empire.

[PoliticalCitizen]

The Toronto brothers behind a politically charged remake of the Pink Floyd classic "Another Brick in the Wall" say music is the perfect medium to speak out against oppression in Iran.

The best place for a "The Wall" remake concert would be at the apartheid wall in Israel.

[M.Dancer]

The best place for a "The Wall" remake concert would be at the apartheid wall in Israel.

We don't need no instigation

We dont need no bomb control

No peaceful message in the classroom

Hey Arabs leave them Jews alone

All in all it's just another reason for a wall

Edited August 26, 2010 by M.Dancer

[DogOnPorch]

The best place for a "The Wall" remake concert would be at the apartheid wall in Israel.

Why do you use the word apartheid? There are many Israelis of Arab decent.

[Jack Weber]

The best place for a "The Wall" remake concert would be at the apartheid wall in Israel.

"One of these days I'm going to cut you up into little pieces!!!"

Live at Pompeii!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XJuWcls7CA

Edited August 26, 2010 by Jack Weber

[nicky10013]

Because the economy was verging on failure. C|ommunism had failed and they needed to restructure the whole shebang...

This contradicts anything I said how?

It was the start...it gave motivation to the Baltic states, to the Ukraine...it was part of the catalyst that ended the empire.

No, it was Czechoslovakia and Hungary. The leaders of the Czech and Hungarian Communist governments (which came in like Gorbachev) sat down with Gorbachev and slyly asked him whether or not if another Prague Spring were to occur, how would the Soviet Union respond. When they got the answer that the USSR wouldn't do anything, they moved forward with their bid for reforms. Poland saw that the Red Army wasn't going to pour across the border and they went on their way as well. The USSR finally lost it's grip actually due to a picnic Czechoslovakia held. The lone holdout in terms of liberalisation in Europe was East Germany and Romania but East Germany was far more important. The reformist government in the Czechoslovakia sent out invitiations to East German citizens to come and vacation in their country for a special picnic. Since one could travel within the Eastern Bloc on designated vacations freely, the government didn't see much of a problem. 30,000 East Germans attended this picnic, which happened to be right on the border between Czechoslovakia and Austria. That day, all those people fled across the border which the Czechoslovaks opened up. The flood of refugees was tremendous to the point where the East Germans had to open their borders, most notably the Berlin Wall on November 9th 1989. This all happened after the liberalisations which caused more independence in the Baltics. So, no not really. Then again, you probably won't read all this, so oh well.

[M.Dancer]

This contradicts anything I said how?

By saying the USSR need not of collapsed.

Economic collapse imminent/rising nationalism---peristroika/glasnost---the end

[naomiglover]

Speaking of Pink Floyd, Roger Waters and "The Wall":

Pink Floyd star lambastes Israel barrier

“It fills me with horror,” Waters told reporters at the site. “You can see photographs of something like this, but until you’ve seen the actual edifice itself and seen what it’s doing to these communities ... It’s hard to comprehend that they could be doing this.”

MSNBC

[Jack Weber]

Speaking of Pink Floyd, Roger Waters and "The Wall":

Pink Floyd star lambastes Israel barrier

“It fills me with horror,” Waters told reporters at the site. “You can see photographs of something like this, but until you’ve seen the actual edifice itself and seen what it’s doing to these communities ... It’s hard to comprehend that they could be doing this.”

MSNBC

Roger's know-it-all arrogance is the main reason Pink Floyd ceased to exist in its proper form...

He's been a long known pacifist...

I liked him better when he was more apolitical...Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5_0iZQ-TuA