Is Crime Really Down?

[wyly]

I believe most of what you've posted, but clearly, elementary school is just being overly alarmist. How many people here know 13 year old drug dealers? Right.

the youngest I knew was 14, pot and LSD...

[wyly]

While you guys are having your rosy jaunt down memory lane, try to remember a charge of rape, of domestic violence, assault... try to remember charges ever being laid against a child molester.

The acts were common enough, but the culture of the day was to keep it to onesself.

we covered that already...

[Wilber]

While you guys are having your rosy jaunt down memory lane, try to remember a charge of rape, of domestic violence, assault... try to remember charges ever being laid against a child molester.

The acts were common enough, but the culture of the day was to keep it to onesself.

I don't think anyone is trying to say those things didn't happen but there is no question that there is a lot more drug related crime than there was then. Drugs more readily available in more varieties and their use more deeply embedded in our society.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Wilber

[Wilber]

I believe most of what you've posted, but clearly, elementary school is just being overly alarmist. How many people here know 13 year old drug dealers? Right.

I don't but my grandkids do.

[capricorn]

I don't think anyone is trying to say those things didn't happen but there is no question that there is a lot more drug related crime than there was then. Drugs more readily available in more varieties and their use more deeply embedded in our society.

To expand Wilber, drug related crimes can be tied to gang activity. Those gangs are notorious for conducting violent turf wars and all too often the innocent get caught in the crossfire. Then we have addicts who commit crimes to feed their habit. Then we have criminals who operate independently simply to make money off the drug market to fund a higher lifestyle. A very insidious business that produces countless victims.

[capricorn]

How many people here know 13 year old drug dealers? Right.

I don't, but I'm sure they are out there. A quick google check reveals that children selling and peddling drugs is a very serious problem in certain countries.

The other thriving market at our schools is contraband cigarettes and I don't doubt 13 years old kids are selling them or acting as intermediaries.

Illegal cigarettes are making their way into the hands of youth in Ontario and Quebec in large numbers, according to a new report that shows the amount of contraband tobacco smoked by teens in those provinces is up this year.

The study, conducted on behalf of the Canadian Convenience Stores Association and the National Coalition Against Contraband Tobacco, found that 30% of cigarette butts collected from around Ontario high schools, and 45% of those collected near Quebec schools, were illegal cigarettes. The numbers represent an increase of 4% and 9%, respectively, over last year’s study.

“Almost one in three teenagers are buying cigarettes from criminals, funding further criminal activity, learning that it’s OK to break the law, and starting smoking at way too young an age,” said Gary Grant, a spokesman for the coalition and a retired superintendent of the Toronto Police Service.

http://www.financialpost.com/related/topics/More+Ontario+Quebec+teens+buying+contraband+cigarettes+study/2103275/story.html

Edited August 8, 2010 by capricorn

[Wild Bill]

To expand Wilber, drug related crimes can be tied to gang activity. Those gangs are notorious for conducting violent turf wars and all too often the innocent get caught in the crossfire. Then we have addicts who commit crimes to feed their habit. Then we have criminals who operate independently simply to make money off the drug market to fund a higher lifestyle. A very insidious business that produces countless victims.

Quite right! I live in a residential neighbourhood of older homes. When we moved in during the mid 80's we were the youngest people here! All my neighbours were older folks whose kids had grown up. Gradually those folks died off or moved to retirement homes and now we have a lot of younger families with kids.

I began to wonder about all the funny 'tags' from paint spray cans on the signs, the post office box where the mail carrier had his daily load dropped and whatnot. My cop brother-in-law explained to me that these were gang signs! I asked my daughters and of course, they were away ahead of their old man! They showed me the odd pair of sneakers, laced together and hanging from a telephone or hydro wire crossing the street. These apparently are also a gang signal.

Once in a blue moon we get a rash of burglaries from one little 'monkeyshines' but as far as all the other drug and gang activity one would never notice!

[jdi]

Today on www.themarknews.com, The Mark is hosting liberal leader Michael Ignatieff in a live chat at 4:30pm EST. You can submit questions to the opposition leader as he travels cross Canada via The Mark's Facebook page, The Mark's website, or Twitter @themarknews. Submit your questions and comments ASAP!

[bloodyminded]

Crime is ever on the rise in the West. Blasphemy, adultery, immodesty. Where are the stonings? How can you let such shame go unpunished?

You didn't name one crime.

[Bryan]

How many people here know 13 year old drug dealers? Right.

There were a couple at my son's elementary school.

[Mansour Mohammed Jaffa]

You didn't name one crime.

They are not crimes in the cesspool of the West only because of the rot and decay and immorality of your people. How can a man who speaks out against all mighty God go unpunished? How can a woman that dishonors her family be left undisciplined? Morality must be enforced by law, lest the people go astray.

[eyeball]

Quite right! I live in a residential neighbourhood of older homes. When we moved in during the mid 80's we were the youngest people here! All my neighbours were older folks whose kids had grown up. Gradually those folks died off or moved to retirement homes and now we have a lot of younger families with kids.

I began to wonder about all the funny 'tags' from paint spray cans on the signs, the post office box where the mail carrier had his daily load dropped and whatnot. My cop brother-in-law explained to me that these were gang signs! I asked my daughters and of course, they were away ahead of their old man! They showed me the odd pair of sneakers, laced together and hanging from a telephone or hydro wire crossing the street. These apparently are also a gang signal.

Once in a blue moon we get a rash of burglaries from one little 'monkeyshines' but as far as all the other drug and gang activity one would never notice!

I live way up a dirt road out in the boonies where the nearest traffic light is over 120 km away. We have tags and hanging shoes here to.

Your brother-in-law and daughters clearly need to get a grip.

Edited August 17, 2010 by eyeball

[dre]

Something has GOT to be done about the rampant crime in this country.

Im sick and tired of waking up hungover and finding dead prositutes in my freezer!

[Jack Weber]

I live way up a dirt road out in the boonies where the nearest traffic light is over 120 km away. We have tags and hanging shoes here to.

Your brother-in-law and daughters clearly need to get a grip.

You don't live in Hamilton...

I can attest to what Bill is saying...

[eyeball]

You don't live in Hamilton...

I can attest to what Bill is saying...

No I don't, I live over three thousand miles from Hamilton but according to the signs and Bill's brother-in-law, gangs from Hamilton must have also taken over my mean dirt street.

Oh man...I gotta go to the bathroom all of a sudden.

[Wild Bill]

No I don't, I live over three thousand miles from Hamilton but according to the signs and Bill's brother-in-law, gangs from Hamilton must have also taken over my mean dirt street.

Oh man...I gotta go to the bathroom all of a sudden.

Just out of curiousity, did you drop math in grade 9? There is absolutely no logical connection in your premise!

Just because you have the signs doesn't mean anything. Kids can copy signs just for the fun of it. In my city, we definitely have the gangs! Damages and arrests are made every day, although there are far more of the former than the latter.

The signs in my neighbourhood helped explain WHAT was going on! We had no need of signs to tell us what WAS happening!

[eyeball]

Just out of curiousity, did you drop math in grade 9? There is absolutely no logical connection in your premise!

Just because you have the signs doesn't mean anything. Kids can copy signs just for the fun of it. In my city, we definitely have the gangs! Damages and arrests are made every day, although there are far more of the former than the latter.

The signs in my neighbourhood helped explain WHAT was going on! We had no need of signs to tell us what WAS happening!

We don't either actually, the cops told us years ago that the Bloods and the Crips took over high schools on Vancouver Island. We've also been told that when kids by a bag of pot they're sending money to Osama bin Laden.

Speaking of logical premises this all reminds me of being warned that we need to be constantly fearful and vigilant about things like Islamofacists and Russians invading us.

The signs are everywhere.

[Visionseeker]

Long thread... Wasn't able to check-out all posts, so my apologies if any of this was addressed previously.

The Lorrie Goldstein's of this world are a wonderful bunch to behold. Statistics which don't match their preconceived notion of reality are flawed, but others that might give them a slight opening for their own cause are to be magnified, amplified and manipulated to ridiculous proportions.

The comparability of data from the 1960's to today is difficult. The questions asked today simply weren't asked back then and some of today's crimes weren't even illegal in the 60s. Case in point: until the reform of the Criminal Code undertaken by Trudeau as Justice Minister, a man could not be charged with raping his wife (estranged or otherwise). Similarly, domestic abuse was prosecuted only in extreme cases involving serious injuries for the victim. Even parental abuse of children is more stridently defined and prosecuted today than it was 50 years ago.

Illegal abortions were common place in the 50s and 60s, yet charges and particularly convictions for the offense were rare. Priests and vicars were diddling and beating with impunity and girls from impoverished families were sold as they had been for generations; except the diminishing demand for domestic servants meant that prostitution was their most likely assignment.

Aboriginals were often killed at the hands (or weapons) of whites who were rarely prosecuted and the victims cause of death frequently recorded as unknown in spite of the presence of obvious knife, axe or gunshot wounds. Gun crimes were not only common; they were often the object of popular public sympathy in the case of bank hold-ups.

As the descendent of 3 medical practitioners, I can tell you that corpses were commonly dropped-off at hospitals or brought into the ER and left there. In such cases the police were called and when the victim was identified as a "known criminal", the body was transferred to the morgue and the coroner was instructed to report the death as "unknown origin" or, especially when the deceased was a Catholic, as a suicide. If you doubt this, I invite you to consult the coroner's records in either Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal for the period.

The country wasn't a safer place 40 or 50 years ago. It was a brutal society were many victims were forced to suffer in silence and denied any semblance of justice.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Visionseeker

[bloodyminded]

Long thread... Wasn't able to check-out all posts, so my apologies if any of this was addressed previously.

The Lorrie Goldstein's of this world are a wonderful bunch to behold. Statistics which don't match their preconceived notion of reality are flawed, but others that might give them a slight opening for their own cause are to be magnified, amplified and manipulated to ridiculous proportions.

The comparability of data from the 1960's to today is difficult. The questions asked today simply weren't asked back then and some of today's crimes weren't even illegal in the 60s. Case in point: until the reform of the Criminal Code undertaken by Trudeau as Justice Minister, a man could not be charged with raping his wife (estranged or otherwise). Similarly, domestic abuse was prosecuted only in extreme cases involving serious injuries for the victim. Even parental abuse of children is more stridently defined and prosecuted today than it was 50 years ago.

Illegal abortions were common place in the 50s and 60s, yet charges and particularly convictions for the offense were rare. Priests and vicars were diddling and beating with impunity and girls from impoverished families were sold as they had been for generations; except the diminishing demand for domestic servants meant that prostitution was their most likely assignment.

Aboriginals were often killed at the hands (or weapons) of whites who were rarely prosecuted and the victims cause of death frequently recorded as unknown in spite of the presence of obvious knife, axe or gunshot wounds. Gun crimes were not only common; they were often the object of popular public sympathy in the case of bank hold-ups.

As the descendent of 3 medical practitioners, I can tell you that corpses were commonly dropped-off at hospitals or brought into the ER and left there. In such cases the police were called and when the victim was identified as a "known criminal", the body was transferred to the morgue and the coroner was instructed to report the death as "unknown origin" or, especially when the deceased was a Catholic, as a suicide. If you doubt this, I invite you to consult the coroner's records in either Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal for the period.

The country wasn't a safer place 40 or 50 years ago. It was a brutal society were many victims were forced to suffer in silence and denied any semblance of justice.

Thanks, Visionseeker. The tenor of this is what I had intuited--and it seemed likely enough that I felt it a cogent argument. But having it backed up more concretely (saving me from my own research-laziness, actually) is helpful.

The self-indulgent nostalgia for a time that never was, on the other hand...not especially helpful. To anyone.

Edited August 20, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Wild Bill]

Long thread... Wasn't able to check-out all posts, so my apologies if any of this was addressed previously.

The Lorrie Goldstein's of this world are a wonderful bunch to behold. Statistics which don't match their preconceived notion of reality are flawed, but others that might give them a slight opening for their own cause are to be magnified, amplified and manipulated to ridiculous proportions.

The comparability of data from the 1960's to today is difficult. The questions asked today simply weren't asked back then and some of today's crimes weren't even illegal in the 60s. Case in point: until the reform of the Criminal Code undertaken by Trudeau as Justice Minister, a man could not be charged with raping his wife (estranged or otherwise). Similarly, domestic abuse was prosecuted only in extreme cases involving serious injuries for the victim. Even parental abuse of children is more stridently defined and prosecuted today than it was 50 years ago.

Illegal abortions were common place in the 50s and 60s, yet charges and particularly convictions for the offense were rare. Priests and vicars were diddling and beating with impunity and girls from impoverished families were sold as they had been for generations; except the diminishing demand for domestic servants meant that prostitution was their most likely assignment.

Aboriginals were often killed at the hands (or weapons) of whites who were rarely prosecuted and the victims cause of death frequently recorded as unknown in spite of the presence of obvious knife, axe or gunshot wounds. Gun crimes were not only common; they were often the object of popular public sympathy in the case of bank hold-ups.

As the descendent of 3 medical practitioners, I can tell you that corpses were commonly dropped-off at hospitals or brought into the ER and left there. In such cases the police were called and when the victim was identified as a "known criminal", the body was transferred to the morgue and the coroner was instructed to report the death as "unknown origin" or, especially when the deceased was a Catholic, as a suicide. If you doubt this, I invite you to consult the coroner's records in either Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal for the period.

The country wasn't a safer place 40 or 50 years ago. It was a brutal society were many victims were forced to suffer in silence and denied any semblance of justice.

Are you old enough to have lived in those times or do you just watch a lot of leftwing movies? Your description just seems pure Hollywood!

Incidently, I'm really surprised a couple of other posters haven't jumped in already and dismissed your entire post as being anecdotal. I guess sometimes 'anecdotal' depends on what side of the political fence you find your friends.

Be that as it may, I won't deny that some of the horrors you mention did occur. They still happen today! It's just that you imply they were as common as having milk delivered to your door! What's more, you state that they happened with 'impunity' and I don't believe that either!

I WILL concede that 'in the old days' a lot of justice was not reported because folks took care of it themselves! If someone molested their kids and the neighbours found out quite often the perp was beaten up and run out of town on a rail! Often off duty cops helped with the beatings!

I personally know of one case in the early 70's where a local fireman was physically abusing his wife and 3 year old daughter, to the point where he broke the little girl's arm. The other firemen promptly broke HIS arm!

Such tactics are deplored today as being barbaric but they seemed to have WORKED far better at protecting victims from repeat offences! Certainly far better than endless 'anger management' classes.

Anyhow, I just wanted to state that your description seems to me to be an outlandish exaggeration, making "To Kill a Mockingbird" look like the Teletubbies!

[bloodyminded]

Are you old enough to have lived in those times or do you just watch a lot of leftwing movies? Your description just seems pure Hollywood!

No...the nostalgic belief that life was summer days and apple pies, and has now become a degeneracy of crime and "loss of values" is pure Hollywood.

And every generation has been decrying contemporary life in the same manner, for thousands of years.

Incidently, I'm really surprised a couple of other posters haven't jumped in already and dismissed your entire post as being anecdotal.

....you say, directly before launching into anecdotes about "the old days."

I WILL concede that 'in the old days' a lot of justice was not reported because folks took care of it themselves! If someone molested their kids and the neighbours found out quite often the perp was beaten up and run out of town on a rail! Often off duty cops helped with the beatings!

Far, far more often that that, people turned their heads aweay in shame and fear and disgust, and refused to think about the matter at all.

Edited August 20, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Keepitsimple]

Are you old enough to have lived in those times or do you just watch a lot of leftwing movies? Your description just seems pure Hollywood!

Incidently, I'm really surprised a couple of other posters haven't jumped in already and dismissed your entire post as being anecdotal. I guess sometimes 'anecdotal' depends on what side of the political fence you find your friends.

Thank you Wild Bill....I didn't jump in because I was flabbergasted that people could simply ignore what we actually lived through. With some posters, it's like beating your head against a wall....or perhaps we'd like to beat THEIR head against a wall. The problem is that they take things far too personally - and they take themselves far too seriously. I really can't say with any REAL certainty that longer prison sentences are better than hug-a-thug. It certainly makes sense to me that society would be better protected against repeat violent offenders and I also believe that society has to "make a statement" that there are serious consequences if you decide to take up crime as a career. My problem is not with the theory - or with all the debate.......lets have at it. My problem is with the attitude that just because crime is modestly down from it's highest historical peak - that somehow, we should just coast. My problem is the complete dismissal of how much less serious crime we had back in the 60's or even 70's. We were there - there is no "nostalgia" involved. There were no swarmings, there were no home invasions, there were no shootouts. Times change - and there are many contributing reasons for increased crime - but why on earth does crime have to be measured from 1991? What would happen if today was 1998 - would we just go back to 1991?

[eyeball]

My problem is the complete dismissal of how much less serious crime we had back in the 60's or even 70's. We were there - there is no "nostalgia" involved.

What about the normal climate and unspoiled ecosystems we had back in the 60's, can we go back to them or is that getting too nostalgic?

[Visionseeker]

Are you old enough to have lived in those times or do you just watch a lot of leftwing movies? Your description just seems pure Hollywood!

I understand. I'm not a dinosaur, therefore I don't think like one. Ergo, I can't reach you.

Incidently, I'm really surprised a couple of other posters haven't jumped in already and dismissed your entire post as being anecdotal. I guess sometimes 'anecdotal' depends on what side of the political fence you find your friends.

Hum, you begin your post by claiming that as I haven't lived the times in question, yet I must implicitly defer to your (anecdotal) experience. Pot, meet kettle.

Be that as it may, I won't deny that some of the horrors you mention did occur.

OK, some common ground here.

They still happen today! It's just that you imply they were as common as having milk delivered to your door! What's more, you state that they happened with 'impunity' and I don't believe that either!

Hum, are you familiar with the Residential Schools question and the Common Experience Payments? The individuals who committed such harm are mostly long dead (thus, impunity). No individual has ever been charged for any of those acts, let alone convicted.

Then consider the Catholic Church. Their dark history of concealing physical and sexual abuse for decades has meant that today's courts are presiding over offenses alleged to have occurred 10, 20 and 30 years ago. And these cases only deal with the few alleged offenders who are still alive, the others enjoyed impunity.

And what of the legacy of domestic violence? Women living in poverty, without access to birth control, who were regularly subjected to assaults from their sober or drunken spouse, sought solace from alcohol oblivious to the harm it would have on the child growing inside them (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome - FAS); essentially spawning about 70% of today's inmates in federal penitentiaries.

Finally, if you're ever in Vancouver, I invite you to visit the archives of the coroner's office. Take a look at the deaths reported in the 50s and 60s and then ask yourself why young men and women with aboriginal names are COD "unknown" in spite of recorded trauma, stab or GS wounds.

I WILL concede that 'in the old days' a lot of justice was not reported because folks took care of it themselves! If someone molested their kids and the neighbours found out quite often the perp was beaten up and run out of town on a rail! Often off duty cops helped with the beatings!

Ah yes, frontier justice. Ever the perfect substitute for a court of law. While we're on the subject of helpful cops, why not look into Milgard, Marshall and the Cornwall Police Force circa 1960-70.

I personally know of one case in the early 70's where a local fireman was physically abusing his wife and 3 year old daughter, to the point where he broke the little girl's arm. The other firemen promptly broke HIS arm!

Am I supposed to be awe struck by those firemen and hold them in deep admiration? The notion that, out of a quest for self-serving vengeance, a group of men can in concert to design such a brutal plan means that they distance themselves from their victim not in kind, but by degree.

Such tactics are deplored today as being barbaric but they seemed to have WORKED far better at protecting victims from repeat offences! Certainly far better than endless 'anger management' classes.

You accuse me of waxing anecdotal and then close with this weak supposition! The anger is strong in you.

Anyhow, I just wanted to state that your description seems to me to be an outlandish exaggeration, making "To Kill a Mockingbird" look like the Teletubbies!

That's your opinion, one you are free to express unblemished by facts.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Visionseeker

[Alta4ever]

What about the normal climate and unspoiled ecosystems we had back in the 60's, can we go back to them or is that getting too nostalgic?

Hilarious normal climate hahahahah.

If you want to be nostalgic about having a normal climate and clean air and think all of that is in the past then why don't we get nostalgic about London in 1760's to 1830's.