Multicultural Chaos in Britain

[lictor616]

Only in your mind.

I don't silence anything, the group that is tasked with governance will assist with public communication.

And just as they will stop people from saying "This snake oil cures cancer." so they will stop people from saying "This race causes crime.".

Society can bear certain types and amounts of lying and manipulation, since we have to rely on the public to know for themselves, but extreme examples of such communication are pernicious and expensive to society. I'm sure there are some examples that you would regulate as well, therefore we're talking about quality of communication only here.

False advertisement is not at all what we're talking about here. but nice try.

And if extreme and pernicious lying was grounds for censorship, i'm sorry to say that most liberals would be for all practical purposes a banned group in canada.

Especially when you want this censorship to apply to someone who argues that "there is no such thing as human equality" or that the concept of "race or clines" is a valid taxonomic classification.

You want to silence people who say that black people are black (have black features and kinky hair) as a result of their GENES, not "poverty or racism".

In this respect you are the one selling snake oil to the public.

And that's why freedom of speech is so important, to let ALL different opinions get heard. Because fully NO ONE espouses a perfect ideology (because a perfect ideology is impossible)-

and what kind of a socialist hell hole it would be if we had "governors" would decide for us which information we needed to hear and which we not.

that would be a one way ride to the GULAG prison camp system.

Edited July 15, 2010 by lictor616

[GostHacked]

You want to silence people who say that black people are black (have black features and kinky hair) as a result of their GENES, not "poverty or racism".

Can you clarify here? I am confused.

[lictor616]

Can you clarify here? I am confused.

The censorship we are talking about, has been applied to persons who for instance deny the concept of human equality.

I couldn't make a public statement today to the effect that I thought that blacks were genetically distinct as a people (even if that is an undisputed fact).

[Michael Hardner]

A not so elegant retreat. The "group" should do no such thing in the way of "assistance".

How is that a retreat ?

Wrong....we are free to make any claim with respect to snake oil, so long as product and money do not change hands. Ditto "race and crime".

Speaking of retreat... yes, the sellers of snake oil aren't free to express their 'beliefs' on its merits.

No we are not....you accept such fundamental government limits on speech and expression....I do not. You are Canadian...I am not.

Fundamental is a subjective word. I don't see it as a fundamental limit to prevent people from saying "this race causes problems... or this race should be wiped off the earth"

We're getting nowhere with this, by the way. Not that I'm shutting you down... but I may lose interest in this ping-pong... soon.

[Michael Hardner]

False advertisement is not at all what we're talking about here. but nice try.

I don't see the difference.

And if extreme and pernicious lying was grounds for censorship, i'm sorry to say that most liberals would be for all practical purposes a banned group in canada.

Especially when you want this censorship to apply to someone who argues that "there is no such thing as human equality" or that the concept of "race or clines" is a valid taxonomic classification.

You want to silence people who say that black people are black (have black features and kinky hair) as a result of their GENES, not "poverty or racism".

In this respect you are the one selling snake oil to the public.

And that's why freedom of speech is so important, to let ALL different opinions get heard. Because fully NO ONE espouses a perfect ideology (because a perfect ideology is impossible)-

and what kind of a socialist hell hole it would be if we had "governors" would decide for us which information we needed to hear and which we not.

that would be a one way ride to the GULAG prison camp system.

The rest of this post is you making up arguments for me, and then arguing against them.

Freedom of expression is such a sweet idea, but it's not free expression we're talking about - it's well-funded lies, broadcast as propaganda with no opposing viewpoint.

I didn't expect you to argue against my points anyway.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....Fundamental is a subjective word. I don't see it as a fundamental limit to prevent people from saying "this race causes problems... or this race should be wiped off the earth"

I know....you accept such limits in the interest of the "common good". The better answer is not limits, but more speech. This concept is fundamental now just as it was at the time of the American Revolution.

We're getting nowhere with this, by the way. Not that I'm shutting you down... but I may lose interest in this ping-pong... soon.

Of course you are losing interest....the outcome is clear. That's why there was a pissing match over Anne Coulter in Canada. You would rather be more "safe" than "free".

Edited July 15, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

It's a pretty sad example of how too much immigration combined with liberal educational policies can screw up schools.

1st. The presence of large blocks of students who do not have a strong language capability slows everything down for the regular students - that is, the British or Canadians. They're sitting there bored and twiddling their thumbs while teacher moves from one ESL type to another trying to make them understand the lesson.

2nd The previous history of foreign children in Canada of becoming assimilated as Canadians through school no longer functions when the majority of their classmates have no more idea what being a Canadian is than they do, and furthermore can't speak the strange "foreign" language of English any better.

3rd Learning the language through assimilation will no longer work for the same reasons. And using piss poor translation devices (all automatic translation devices are piss poor) is only going to slow that down further.

Children who do not understand English have no business being in a regular school. It was acceptable, I suppose, when there was only the odd one, and he quickly learned the language because it was sink or swim. But with half the class babbling away like the united nations it's idiotic. If you have that many foreign kids to be educated then you need special ESL classes - hell, special ESL schools in which to educate them.

Furthermore, if the foreign students outnumber the locals then it isn't THEY who are going to become assimilated, it will be the locals.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Of course you are losing interest....the outcome is clear. That's why there was a pissing match over Anne Coulter in Canada. You would rather be more "safe" than "free".

I caused the p*ssing match over Anne Coulter ? I didn't know I had that kind of power.

[Jack Weber]

It's a pretty sad example of how too much immigration combined with liberal educational policies can screw up schools.

1st. The presence of large blocks of students who do not have a strong language capability slows everything down for the regular students - that is, the British or Canadians. They're sitting there bored and twiddling their thumbs while teacher moves from one ESL type to another trying to make them understand the lesson.

2nd The previous history of foreign children in Canada of becoming assimilated as Canadians through school no longer functions when the majority of their classmates have no more idea what being a Canadian is than they do, and furthermore can't speak the strange "foreign" language of English any better.

3rd Learning the language through assimilation will no longer work for the same reasons. And using piss poor translation devices (all automatic translation devices are piss poor) is only going to slow that down further.

Children who do not understand English have no business being in a regular school. It was acceptable, I suppose, when there was only the odd one, and he quickly learned the language because it was sink or swim. But with half the class babbling away like the united nations it's idiotic. If you have that many foreign kids to be educated then you need special ESL classes - hell, special ESL schools in which to educate them.

Furthermore, if the foreign students outnumber the locals then it isn't THEY who are going to become assimilated, it will be the locals.

Ya'know Argus....Some of that I don't disagree with.I've always felt that if we want to break up ethnic cliques in cities,we have to start fitting the job skills of immigrants to the area of the country where they are needed most.And there is historical precedent in this country for doing this going back to the forst wave of European immigrants over 100 years ago.

For example,let's say you are a fully acredited(sp) doctor from Bombay,and you might have relatives in Toronto...But the need for doctors is in Flin Flon ,Manitoba...I think it's our perogative as the country that this person wants to immigrate to,to say,"We need your skills,but they are not needed in Toronto.They are needed in Flin Flon,Manitoba.There's a place there for you to practice your profession,if you want it.If you don't,we're sorry but we'll find someone else."I think 9 times out of 10,that person will take that opportunity and run with it.And if they take it,they have to sign a contract that states that they will live in that community for no less than 5 years.If they don't live up to that contract,it's sayonara!

This would help in 2 ways...

1.That person is going to have to work in a community where there may not be anyone of his/her ethnic background.They would be forced to interact with others they would'nt normally interact with.

2.After 5 years,they might meet someone,get married,have kids etc...They might not want to move back to an area where they would be with the same ethnic group.In fact,their kids would probably be brought up in a more Canadian fashion,than they would have if the parents had stayed in Toronto...

It's just an idea I've had for a while...

Now to your point about language...I can only speak for myself...

My wife is African,andobviously,so is my stepson..When he got here he could barely speak English.I should say that his first language is French,so,it makes things a little easier...We live in a small town,and he's the only person from Cameroon in the school.He was also the only French speaking person in his class....It took him about 6 months of ESL outside the regular class to be able to converse with people easily.3 years later,he's more fluent in English than his mother,and by that I mean,he speaks almost perfect English...As perfect as a 13 year old can speak English...

[GostHacked]

Children who do not understand English have no business being in a regular school. It was acceptable, I suppose, when there was only the odd one, and he quickly learned the language because it was sink or swim. But with half the class babbling away like the united nations it's idiotic. If you have that many foreign kids to be educated then you need special ESL classes - hell, special ESL schools in which to educate them.

You make sense here. I am not sure, but are these students mixed in with the regulars or is this a special class where they are all ESL students?

OK reading the article again it is saying that more than half of the students at this particular school do not have english as their first language. So it seems like a prefect place to test and implement this new technology.

I think the focus needs to be on the fact this technology can then in turn help the teacher teach english to the students.

[lictor616]

My wife is African,andobviously,so is my stepson..When he got here he could barely speak English.I should say that his first language is French,so,it makes things a little easier...We live in a small town,and he's the only person from Cameroon in the school.He was also the only French speaking person in his class....It took him about 6 months of ESL outside the regular class to be able to converse with people easily.3 years later,he's more fluent in English than his mother,and by that I mean,he speaks almost perfect English...As perfect as a 13 year old can speak English...

hahaha put your money where your mouth is if you dare... if you're going to spout anecdotal refuse could you at least TRY to back it up.

And stop with the jungle fever nonsense, its clear you think highly of yourself for having a non-white wife... we know... we know.,... move on...

we know people who think like you brandish nonwhite partners as baubles, to show how politically correct you are...

[bloodyminded]

hahaha put your money where your mouth is if you dare... if you're going to spout anecdotal refuse could you at least TRY to back it up.

And stop with the jungle fever nonsense, its clear you think highly of yourself for having a non-white wife... we know... we know.,... move on...

we know people who think like you brandish nonwhite partners as baubles, to show how politically correct you are...

Whoa, partner...who's this "we"?

[lictor616]

Whoa, partner...who's this "we"?

well I'm going to go out on a limb and presume im not the only one who noticed it.... either way, please stay on topic

[Argus]

Ya'know Argus....Some of that I don't disagree with.I've always felt that if we want to break up ethnic cliques in cities,we have to start fitting the job skills of immigrants to the area of the country where they are needed most.

I'm not especially worried about that, at least, not as worried as I am about the government continually misdiagnosing what skills are needed and what skills will be recognized AS skills. Why do we keep taking in "university graduates" whose education, presuming it exists (there are a lot of fraudulent documents out there) is not really going to be translated into work in Canada? We should be taking in carpenters, plumbers, brick layers, roofers and electricians, people for whom there is a demonstrated need, and who will be able to demonstrate their abilities (or lack) on a job site pretty easily.

The fact is, if you can work construction, you can work in Canada, and it doesn't matter if you speak taxi-driver English. But if you're professional from some barely known school and your English skills are decidedly lacking, you are not going to get a job here in your field without long years of effort. We let in too many of these people and the high immigrant unemployment rate is the result.

My wife is African,andobviously,so is my stepson..When he got here he could barely speak English.I should say that his first language is French,so,it makes things a little easier...We live in a small town,and he's the only person from Cameroon in the school.He was also the only French speaking person in his class....It took him about 6 months of ESL outside the regular class to be able to converse with people easily.3 years later,he's more fluent in English than his mother,and by that I mean,he speaks almost perfect English...As perfect as a 13 year old can speak English...

Children can pick up languages fairly easily - if they're in the proper setting. I dispute that a classroom where 60% of the class speak very poor English and the teacher is using a computerized version of babblefish is that setting. Your son went to an ESL class. Apparently, many of these in the article did not, or did not go long enough, else they wouldn't need the devices. The people I really pity are the ones who do speak English perfectly and are forced to sit in class bored and doing nothing because the lessons move painfully slowly due to the difficulties in communication.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Argus

[Argus]

OK reading the article again it is saying that more than half of the students at this particular school do not have english as their first language. So it seems like a prefect place to test and implement this new technology.

No, it is a classroom, a place they need to be teaching. Teaching requires communications skills. If the students don't have them they aren't learning at a proper rate. And automatic translation is a very flawed field as yet.

The only demonstrated, proven way of quick language comprehension is total immersion. All these machines do is slow down the ability to pick up English. And that is added ON TOP of the difficulty posed by having far too many non-English speakers in the classroom.

[GostHacked]

No, it is a classroom, a place they need to be teaching. Teaching requires communications skills. If the students don't have them they aren't learning at a proper rate. And automatic translation is a very flawed field as yet.

Correct it is new, but you got to start somewhere.

The only demonstrated, proven way of quick language comprehension is total immersion. All these machines do is slow down the ability to pick up English. And that is added ON TOP of the difficulty posed by having far too many non-English speakers in the classroom.

I don't disagree that total immersion will allow someone to learn the language faster. And if they are all kids, they have this great capacity to learn the language quicker, even with this new technology.

These kids being in such a minority might not otherwise get a good change to actually learn the language of the land. How hard would it be to find a teacher that knows a specific language enough to help the transition to english? I guess that depends on how many people immigrating actually speak that language.

[lictor616]

Correct it is new, but you got to start somewhere.

oh please shut up, look at you dicing the future of tens of thousands of children to prop up your failed ideology!

you should be ashamed of yourself..

[Bonam]

These kids being in such a minority might not otherwise get a good change to actually learn the language of the land. How hard would it be to find a teacher that knows a specific language enough to help the transition to english? I guess that depends on how many people immigrating actually speak that language.

You don't need a teacher that knows your old language, or help with the transition. Complete, brutal, immersion is the surest path to learning a new language. That's how I learned English when I came to Canada as a child. Only took a few months until I was as fluent as my classmates.