We all know how Mr Chretien was best friends of china

[PIK]

But it took the evil and not to nice harper to get canada on the chinese favourite destination list and get the beef ban taken off. Now that is leadership, don't let them push you around like Mr Chretien did.

Edited June 26, 2010 by PIK

[eyeball]

Between Harper's now famous disregard for the environment and obvious desire to crack down and get tough on people it's no doubt Chinese folks will feel right at home here.

Of course they probably always knew that the more we open up our society to China's the more our's will become like their's.

Edited June 26, 2010 by eyeball

[Remiel]

Now that is leadership,. . .

In the hands of people like you and many Conservatives, this has been turned into nothing more than a buzzword. The word is hardly ever used correctly, let alone aptly and truthfully.

[Hydraboss]

Between Harper's now famous disregard for the environment and obvious desire to crack down and get tough on people it's no doubt Chinese folks will feel right at home here.

Of course they probably always knew that the more we open up our society to China's the more our's will become like their's.

So does that apply to all immigrants and countries that are culturally backward, or are you just singling out China? Does that make you a racist? How about a xenophobe? Is it the same for Pakistan and India, or just those YOU don't like?

Are you a bigot, Eyeball?

[bloodyminded]

So does that apply to all immigrants and countries that are culturally backward, or are you just singling out China? Does that make you a racist? How about a xenophobe? Is it the same for Pakistan and India, or just those YOU don't like?

Are you a bigot, Eyeball?

It's bigotry to demean authoritarian governments?

I honestly didn't know that.

[eyeball]

So does that apply to all immigrants and countries that are culturally backward, or are you just singling out China?

Nope, it applies to countries that are deliberately undemocratic. PIK by the way is who singled out China.

Does that make you a racist? How about a xenophobe? Is it the same for Pakistan and India, or just those YOU don't like?

Are you a bigot, Eyeball?

No, I can see you're trying to make hay out of my admittedly poor reference to Chinese folks though... my bad I guess. Feel better?

So do you disagree with the idea that societies and cultures who open themselves up to each come to take on attributes of the other?

I'm not being facetious when I ask whether this is true of corporate cultures or the cultures of entitlement, privilege, secrecy and authority that government leaders operate in? Are you suggesting our's are somehow invulnerable to the influence of China's?

Edited June 26, 2010 by eyeball

[Argus]

Between Harper's now famous disregard for the environment and obvious desire to crack down and get tough on people it's no doubt Chinese folks will feel right at home here.

When Harper's personal assistant is standing with the RCMP, demanding they pepper spray people, demanding they arrest people for daring to hold up signs or lift flags, as in the Chretien APEC summit, you'll have a point.

[eyeball]

When Harper's personal assistant is standing with the RCMP, demanding they pepper spray people, demanding they arrest people for daring to hold up signs or lift flags, as in the Chretien APEC summit, you'll have a point.

The fear and loathing Harper is using to sell his crime bills puts him in the same league. The associated secrecy and evasiveness that's surrounded the costs of paying for these bills doesn't put him in any better company than some of the worst characters he's chumming it up with this weekend.

For what? Political power. Tell me that isn't what Chretien and Hu Jintao were/are also primarily interested in and I'll concede whatever point it is you're trying to make.

[ZenOps]

China at the time of Chretien was a little different.

China hadn't really subjugated Tibet fully back then. Now - they are pretty much in control and harnessing the full grain potential of Tibet (about 20x output and higher quality than under the Lama)

China got a little fed up with Canadian grain (and beef) prices. It is awfully high, especially considering a pound of bread is more expensive than a pound of steel (which is also probably why the united mostly US steelworkers are protesting - but I digress)

China now in 2010 has the capacity to refuse Canadian genetically modified canola oil, and all beef and not have it adversely affect them.

I can't help but think - that if Canada had even a slightly increased output of foodstuffs from the 1950's - that the invasion of Tibet might never have happened, China might not have "had" to subjugate that area.

Chretien bowed to the Chinese, Harper bowed to Bush when Harper gave the US 1 Billion dollars worth of free softwood lumber. Favoritism is everywhere. It all evens out, but I would not want to be a Saskatchewan wheat or beef farmer for much longer.

[ZenOps]

Mau Tse Harper is heading that way. He started out as slightly minority government democratic - but moved to undemocratic very quickly.

Not that I can blame, but he seems to be modelling the intellegence community (CSIS) on Chinese intellegence and not on MI6. If that is because he sees China as the enemy and in order to understand the enemy you have to become it first than thats pretty scary. If hes doing it because he sees the Chinese system as more efficient and effective (usually at quelling public unrest) thats pretty scary too.

Edited June 26, 2010 by ZenOps

[Topaz]

I'm not sure of having China as a friend is such a good thing. About 1.5 years ago, I read that China was putting all their toxics into what ever they were manufacturing and sending them out of country to others and the Red Arm runs most of the China owned manufacturers. So what did we find out lately, alot of the manufacturing goods coming from China have toxics in them. So why would Canada want more "wasted and dangerous" products??

[eyeball]

Chretien bowed to the Chinese, Harper bowed to Bush when Harper gave the US 1 Billion dollars worth of free softwood lumber. Favoritism is everywhere. It all evens out, but I would not want to be a Saskatchewan wheat or beef farmer for much longer.

No, you'd probably want to be into selling oil to China.

[eyeball]

I'm not sure of having China as a friend is such a good thing. About 1.5 years ago, I read that China was putting all their toxics into what ever they were manufacturing and sending them out of country to others and the Red Arm runs most of the China owned manufacturers. So what did we find out lately, alot of the manufacturing goods coming from China have toxics in them. So why would Canada want more "wasted and dangerous" products??

So they'll buy our oil and coal to make them with?

[Argus]

The fear and loathing Harper is using to sell his crime bills puts him in the same league.

Fear and loathing? I don't recall seeing one single thing coming out of the federal government which could be so-defined. You think the government needs to "sell" veering away from the liberal hug-a-thug movement which has been such a dramatic and obvious failure over the past twenty years? Believe me, this is not a case where the Tories have created an issue and then needed to somehow scare people into supporting it. It's the other way around. They're simply responding to the anger and frustration of ordinary men and women.

[Wild Bill]

The fear and loathing Harper is using to sell his crime bills puts him in the same league. The associated secrecy and evasiveness that's surrounded the costs of paying for these bills doesn't put him in any better company than some of the worst characters he's chumming it up with this weekend.

For what? Political power. Tell me that isn't what Chretien and Hu Jintao were/are also primarily interested in and I'll concede whatever point it is you're trying to make.

Well, if you're right that being tougher on crime will bring Harper more power then that would have to mean that he is pleasing more voters than before!

Are you against the principle of governments following the wishes of the majority of their citizens?

[ZenOps]

No, you'd probably want to be into selling oil to China.

I don't need to, its already sold. Its just a matter of scooping it up or pumping it now.

If my guess is right, the oilsands will shift in the media from a dirty operation - to the most amazingly wonderful environmental blessing ever.

Extracting oil from unusable soil - is basically oil cleanup of a naturally occuring gigantic oil slick on land. The day that people see that hundreds of thousands of acres of land that was literally choked to death by oil - come alive for the first time in a million years and support vegetation - is the day that the tarsands turns from devil to archangel.

Its just a matter of media spin. Oh Stelmach, thank you for this "dirty" land.

Edited June 27, 2010 by ZenOps

[Keepitsimple]

Between Harper's now famous disregard for the environment and obvious desire to crack down and get tough on people it's no doubt Chinese folks will feel right at home here.

That's the sad part of the Climate Change fiasco.....people roll it up into the "Environment" as if it's the only thing. Clean water, protecting habitat and species, reducing smog and pollutants, protecting water purity......all of the traditional and honourable exploits that used to define the Environment - are taking a back seat to "Climate Change". The Conservatives are as good as, if not better than previous governments in trying to make a difference in the traditional aspects of the Environment.......but nobody really seems to care anymore. Shame.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[eyeball]

Fear and loathing? I don't recall seeing one single thing coming out of the federal government which could be so-defined. You think the government needs to "sell" veering away from the liberal hug-a-thug movement which has been such a dramatic and obvious failure over the past twenty years? Believe me, this is not a case where the Tories have created an issue and then needed to somehow scare people into supporting it. It's the other way around. They're simply responding to the anger and frustration of ordinary men and women.

Responding? Bullshit, Conservatives are outright fueling that anger and frustration. It's not the other way around, it's exactly as I've described it, deliberate unreasoning fear mongering on a massive scale with the intent to garner support. A proven path to power that tyrants and dictators throughout time and space have successfully used. All they need is an ignorant mob.

[eyeball]

Well, if you're right that being tougher on crime will bring Harper more power then that would have to mean that he is pleasing more voters than before!

The problem as I've explained is not just Harper. The Liberals fear the perception that they are soft on crime and so there is no opposition to the trend towards making our justice system into vengeance system based on fear and loathing instead of science and reason.

Are you against the principle of governments following the wishes of the majority of their citizens?

You mean like when the majority want something like pot legalized? No, of course I'm not.

[Argus]

Responding? Bullshit, Conservatives are outright fueling that anger and frustration. It's not the other way around, it's exactly as I've described it, deliberate unreasoning fear mongering on a massive scale

Well and good then. Let's see it. If there's "fear mongering on a massive scale" you must have oodles and oodles of shocking, fear mongering Tory propaganda to cite for me. I await with bated breath.

[Wild Bill]

The problem as I've explained is not just Harper. The Liberals fear the perception that they are soft on crime and so there is no opposition to the trend towards making our justice system into vengeance system based on fear and loathing instead of science and reason.

You mean like when the majority want something like pot legalized? No, of course I'm not.

Well, I'm in favour of legalization too! It seems where we differ is that I believe that the majority should get what they want but NOT only when they agree with me!

You're either a democrat or an elitist. There really is no middle ground, eyeball!

[nicky10013]

China needs to be our friends. They're going to be the largest economy in the world in short order. As for their authoritarianism, integrating China further into the world economy will only help bring down the government. Two things create a drive for democratisation - money and information. There's talk of the "great firewall of china" but pretty much everyone can get around it so more and more people don't have to rely on state censored media thereby degrading Beijing's control on people. A creation of a middle class creates a body politic which fights for human rights.

I understand the notion of wanting to punish (which in terms of Canada is hilarious) the Chinese for their human rights abuses, but the way it works is pretty much directly opposed to common wisdom that attempting to hurt chinese wealth will somehow piss people off and cause an overthrow. Not true.

Edited June 27, 2010 by nicky10013

[eyeball]

Well and good then. Let's see it. If there's "fear mongering on a massive scale" you must have oodles and oodles of shocking, fear mongering Tory propaganda to cite for me. I await with bated breath.

You haven't see any reports and stories about hapless victim's outrage or controversial parole board hearings, sentencing's and what have that are milked for all they're worth by the Vic Towes and Randy Whites of the world? This forum and a good part of the blogosphere is likewise filled to the brim with a hang-em high mob mentality that is as savage as it is reactionary.

My MP tells me in the mail-outs he sends me that addicts don't have rights and he cites the same bogus studies that you do about under reporting of crime to explain rising crime rates despite government statistics that say otherwise. The politicians are trying to scare us into believing the government is lying? Okay.

James Lunney encourages the development of neighborhood snitch committees to literally sniff out crime in my community. One such group is even calling for eventually getting rid of alcohol and would like to see municipal zoning laws used to discourage the sale and distribution of mind-altering substances within the village boundaries. Lunney's loathing is certainly palpable enough.

As for the fear that's generated locally, I recall the bogus story the RCMP spread about rape-gangs in Tofino. And you wouldn't believe the size and yield of the pot plants they confiscate around here.

[nicky10013]

You haven't see any reports and stories about hapless victim's outrage or controversial parole board hearings, sentencing's and what have that are milked for all they're worth by the Vic Towes and Randy Whites of the world? This forum and a good part of the blogosphere is likewise filled to the brim with a hang-em high mob mentality that is as savage as it is reactionary.

My MP tells me in the mail-outs he sends me that addicts don't have rights and he cites the same bogus studies that you do about under reporting of crime to explain rising crime rates despite government statistics that say otherwise. The politicians are trying to scare us into believing the government is lying? Okay.

James Lunney encourages the development of neighborhood snitch committees to literally sniff out crime in my community. One such group is even calling for eventually getting rid of alcohol and would like to see municipal zoning laws used to discourage the sale and distribution of mind-altering substances within the village boundaries. Lunney's loathing is certainly palpable enough.

As for the fear that's generated locally, I recall the bogus story the RCMP spread about rape-gangs in Tofino. And you wouldn't believe the size and yield of the pot plants they confiscate around here.

If all this "tough on crime" stuff isn't fear mongering than I don't know what is. The basic message from the government has been "you're not safe and we're the only people who can stop them." Anyone who disagrees with it, just remember...you support child porn.

[eyeball]

If all this "tough on crime" stuff isn't fear mongering than I don't know what is. The basic message from the government has been "you're not safe and we're the only people who can stop them." Anyone who disagrees with it, just remember...you support child porn.

Yep, if your not with em you're against them. It' enough to make me puke.