Saudis Clear Skies for Israeli Attack On Iran

[dre]

By the same logic, attacking the Nazis would only make them angrier. Avoiding violence at all costs isn't a defensible moral principle, in fact - it's the position of one with no principles at all.

Hehe nice! Godwins law, and then a strawman fallacy crammed into two short sentences.

I never said avoid violence at ALL costs. I said bombing raids against Iran would exasterbate the problem because it would give the population a good reason to be anti Israeli, and because at the most it would set the program back a bit.

And the Nazi comparison is seriously just retarded.

[bloodyminded]

By the same logic, attacking the Nazis would only make them angrier. Avoiding violence at all costs isn't a defensible moral principle, in fact - it's the position of one with no principles at all.

And succumbing to violence-as-always-the-answer lays somewhere lower than "no principles at all." It's swimming in a sewer of moral degeneracy.

Edited June 15, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

And succumbing to violence-as-always-the-answer lays somewhere lower than "no principles at all." It's swimming in a sewer of moral degeneracy.

Who has succumbed to that position aside from Arab and Muslim opposition to Israel and Jewish self-determination?

[WIP]

Insane lies.

What? That Israel has nukes, or that they will only use them as a last resort?

All false.

Bullshit! You can decide to keep drinking your pro-Israel koolaid at your chosen source, but you are not entitled to change the facts of the story, or deny the obvious. There are many examples in history of the oppressed becoming the oppressors, and in Gaza, Israel has created its own Warsaw Ghetto.

For example, the reason for the aid flotilla, and the subsequent IDF piracy of the ships in international waters, and the subsequent execution-style slayings of nine members of the flotilla, are a chain of events created by the unnecessarily restrictions on products allowed into Gaza. The restrictions demonstrate that the argument the blockade is for security reasons only - to be a total lie. From last year in Haaretz:

Every time Gazans sit down for a meal, they face a depressing reality. The selection of foods available to them is dictated almost entirely by a harsh policy imposed by the Israeli government, which, as of late, has even refused to allow such innocuous-seeming foods as pumpkins, pasta or beans to cross the border......Can the experts please explain: Why does the Health Ministry recommendation for the diet of Israeli infants and toddlers - "soft fruit such as bananas and avocado, cooked chicken and beef, and cheese cubes" - not apply to Palestinian children? These particular items are all strictly forbidden from entering Gaza, while rice and a limited selection of meat and produce are the only food items in fact allowed to enter.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/tough-menu-to-swallow-1.279727

So it's not just a matter of messing with their heads by blocking the entry of foods that are popular in Gaza; the banning of beans, cheese, most meats, comes to mind when I read the latest WHO report that over 10% of Gaza children are so iron-deficient that their growth is stunted...which is of course will be a permanent legacy of the blockade. It calls to mind that infamous statement one of Ehud Olmert's advisers made back when the blockade started, denying that they were trying to starve the Gazans, but were instead putting them on a diet! That declaration showed that the blockade which is causing permanent harm to the health and lives of the residents in Gaza, is not by accident, but is instead part of a deliberate strategy of collective punishment.

Obviously by trying harder than the US would be willing to, since it is an existential matter for Israel. If it came to it, they would be willing to launch multiple air raids and endure some casualties to get the mission complete. The US assessment of not being "confident" means that they don't think they could do it with trivial ease and almost complete certainty of zero American casualties. If they wanted to and were willing to accept a harder mission, though, then they could certainly do it.

So the Bush Administration refused to be pushed into launching the air raid against Iran because the U.S. Air Force doesn't try hard enough, or is willing to endure some casualties! Seems a little hard to believe. Have the religious parties in Israel taken full control, and expect God to join them in battle?

It's likely that part of the Bush Administrations's negative assessment is related to how badly they were bamboozled by bad intelligence in Iraq. Anyone remember the WMD's? The same bullshit story may be getting ginned up in Iran, since every time the CIA does an assessment, they throw cold water on the hysterical stories that the Iranians will soon have an A-bomb.

My suspicions are that this rumoured secret deal that started the thread is evidence that Israel and Saudi Arabia are part of an unholy alliance to take down Iran, with the collusion of other Sunni Arab states. Remember that with all of the navel-gazing bleating about Israel being surrounded by enemies, that there are other nations in the world that are surrounded by enemies...and Iran is one of them.

Israel would be crazy to launch a nuclear attack unless either they had just been nuked themselves or unless Jerusalem or Tel Aviv were being overrun by enemy troops. Not gonna happen in any other situation.

I am no longer so sure that the Israeli Government is a rational player on the world stage.

[M.Dancer]

NO you (as usual) are out to lunch. Why dont tell me when the last time was the Iran attacked one of its neighbors militarily? Compare them to the rest of the countries in the region... Syria, Iraq, Israel, Pakistan and so on. The last time Iran was involved in a major conflict was the US helped Iraq used chemical weapons against them.

Yeah sure they did....Iran used Chemical weapons against the Iraqis...anyway, whether you fight directly, or whether you use proxies, it makes no difference so your claim of a peaceful Iran is useful for lawn care

[Army Guy]

Bullshit! You can decide to keep drinking your pro-Israel koolaid at your chosen source, but you are not entitled to change the facts of the story, or deny the obvious. There are many examples in history of the oppressed becoming the oppressors, and in Gaza, Israel has created its own Warsaw Ghetto.

For example, the reason for the aid flotilla, and the subsequent IDF piracy of the ships in international waters, and the subsequent execution-style slayings of nine members of the flotilla, are a chain of events created by the unnecessarily restrictions on products allowed into Gaza. The restrictions demonstrate that the argument the blockade is for security reasons only - to be a total lie. From last year in Haaretz:

And this is not an example of drinking Pro Palistinian koolaid, come on....Comparing Gaza situation to Warsaw ghetto's i mean lets get some sort of reality into the debate here....

IDF piracy of ships in inter national waters....this has already been explained, over and over again...why don't you just read up on inter national law,

Subsequent execution style slayings....is that what really happen here they lined them up on their hands and knees and shot them in the back of the head...

The blockaid is failing to catch 5 out of 9 ships sailing to gaza , inter national aid into the region last year was over 2.1 Bil in cash alone also a 4.5 bil package signed for reconstruction....this year those numbers have already been surpassed....and thats not what is being smuggled in thru the tunnels....

And while the entire reason for the blockaid may be a farce it does not negate the piont that arms shipments have been siezed at sea.....rockets still fly over the walls....

I think it's time we all sat down and just sprouted the truth nobody in this region wants peace....thats both sides....WTF would they do if there was peace....Hamas would actually have to govern the state....Israel would have bils to spend on what ever instead of defense....

[sharkman]

Armyguy, you may discover that getting into a debate with WIP is kind of like that clown hankie gag. The more you pull at the hankie the longer it gets until you have a mile of connected hankies sitting at your feet and the sad realization that there is 5 hours you'll never get back. He loves debates for the sake of debating and things like actual facts (execution style slayings no less!) are toys to be manipulated.

Good luck.

[naomiglover]

And this is not an example of drinking Pro Palistinian koolaid, come on....Comparing Gaza situation to Warsaw ghetto's i mean lets get some sort of reality into the debate here....

Reality is that you posted some web site of a restaurant in Gaza that was last updated in 2006 and which has videos of Mahmoud Abbas visiting the restaurant. Then you declared that the restaurant is evidence that the Gazans are living in luxury and that all the organizations, including Amnesty, HRW and now Red Cross are all lying. When you were called on your flagrant bullshxt, you ran off.

Get a grip, Army Guy.

[Army Guy]

Reality is that you posted some web site of a restaurant in Gaza that was last updated in 2006 and which has videos of Mahmoud Abbas visiting the restaurant. Then you declared that the restaurant is evidence that the Gazans are living in luxury and that all the organizations, including Amnesty, HRW and now Red Cross are all lying. When you were called on your flagrant bullshxt, you ran off.

Get a grip, Army Guy.sharkman

Lets get the facts straight shall we. I did post about a 5 star restaurant in Gaza, it was not 2006 but 2008....and you've yet to prove that it does not exist, instead you explained it away as like any other city it has it's rich and poor, and they where using the tunnels to bring in their high priced menus items....now you dismiss it because the link is old....in which i explained there is over 36,000 web sites to chose from on goggle find a newer version.....

i also posted about an olympic size pool, built with aid money that you've yet to explain....why a nation, that is starving, living in "conditions of a warsaw ghetto", with hospitals in ruins, severe water shortages ....decide above every else they are going to build a pool....

I have a grip Naomi, i know that conditions are not good in gaza, that war sucks, and people may not have all the food staples they need....but they are far from starving in the sense we have been conditioned, by the same NGO's that dealt with Somolia, and other Africa nations, whose people were actually starving, and dying....having shortages and starving are two different things.....Aid is getting thru in fact as listed by your own team of experts 5 out of 9 ships are making it to gaza....thats some blockaid....

perhaps it time to take a step back, your very good at filtering the Israelis BS, you suck at the PA BS....

[WIP]

And this is not an example of drinking Pro Palistinian koolaid, come on....Comparing Gaza situation to Warsaw ghetto's i mean lets get some sort of reality into the debate here....

I did not create that Warsaw Ghetto analogy. It's been made a number of times over the last few years from Al Jazeera and other Arab sites of course, but it has also been used by Israeli peace activists who have become increasingly disturbed by the abuse of power, disregard for law, and simply the "might makes right" mentality that now pervades the majority of opinions on how to deal with the Palestinians and other Arabs. It's not my job to determine if it is a fitting analogy, but the cosmetic appearance of Israel keeping a large population trapped and "putting them on a diet" as one of Olmert's cabinet ministers called it, does make for disturbing comparisons.

Like I said before, just because Jews have had a history of persecution, does not make them immune from becoming the oppressors themselves....and modern Israel has become the evidence.

IDF piracy of ships in inter national waters....this has already been explained, over and over again...why don't you just read up on inter national law,

No point bringing back all of the points of international law, but if you already read what I wrote previously( probably in one of the other thousand or so Muslim and MidEast threads), the only way the Israeli raid can be lawfully defended is by selective application of international law. If a ship is registered and not a pirate vessel itself, it cannot be forcibly boarded in international waters without the consent of the host nation, unless war has been declared, and the destination of the ship has been declared a belligerent by the nation attempting to enforce a legal blockade...ie. that stupid example of Lincoln and the Civil War etc.

Is the Israeli blockade of Gaza legal? Not according to the U.N. The conduct of the blockade fits neatly under the definition of collective punishment by Israel's own admission. Has Israel declared war on Gaza? I haven't seen that yet! Therefore, if this whole bullshit process was really following some form of legitimacy besides the power of the gun, Israel would not be able to seize those ships in international waters, or in Gaza's waters also.

Subsequent execution style slayings....is that what really happen here they lined them up on their hands and knees and shot them in the back of the head...

Who knows the exact procedure, since the Israelis seized every recording device they could find on the ships. Here's what else you wouldn't have learned about on FoxNews:

Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range Exclusive: Nine Turkish men on board Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times, autopsy results reveal.

Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

Now, go back to spin cycle!

The blockaid is failing to catch 5 out of 9 ships sailing to gaza , inter national aid into the region last year was over 2.1 Bil in cash alone also a 4.5 bil package signed for reconstruction....this year those numbers have already been surpassed....and thats not what is being smuggled in thru the tunnels....

And while the entire reason for the blockaid may be a farce it does not negate the piont that arms shipments have been siezed at sea.....rockets still fly over the walls....

I think it's time we all sat down and just sprouted the truth nobody in this region wants peace....thats both sides....WTF would they do if there was peace....Hamas would actually have to govern the state....Israel would have bils to spend on what ever instead of defense....

I don't know whether or not peace is possible, but if Israel has given up on the peace process entirely and has decided to follow the time-honoured solution of ethnic cleansing to rid themselves of the Palestinian Problem (and possibly the Lebanon Problem also), we should cut them loose to do it on their own. But I don't see that as likely since our current Conservative Prime Minister is a total lapdog to every Neoconservative policy and is trying to get closer to Israel, as celebrated in another thread here by conservatives as a good news story!

[WIP]

Armyguy, you may discover that getting into a debate with WIP is kind of like that clown hankie gag. The more you pull at the hankie the longer it gets until you have a mile of connected hankies sitting at your feet and the sad realization that there is 5 hours you'll never get back. He loves debates for the sake of debating and things like actual facts (execution style slayings no less!) are toys to be manipulated.

Good luck.

Oh shut the hell up and make some points yourself! All you do around here is act like a whiny little bitch and snipe at everyone you don't like behind their backs (I've read what you've said about me already, and don't have the guts to post on my comments). And when you're not doing that, you're waving your pom poms and cheering for heroes. Do some of your own thinking for a change. Or if you are incapable of debate, go elswhere!

[sharkman]

And I've read the snide remarks you've made about me. So what? Quit stamping your feet like a grade schooler and grow up.

And I am not going to pull at that hankie, thank you very much.

[WIP]

And I've read the snide remarks you've made about me. So what? Quit stamping your feet like a grade schooler and grow up.

And I am not going to pull at that hankie, thank you very much.

As noted by others on this forum, you accuse others of ad hominem attacks against you all the time, while doing the very same thing yourself. Most of us here try to debate the issues, and you don't seem to show any interest in the actual subjects, except for choosing sides and piling on. Do some of your own work for a change.

[sharkman]

Oh shut the hell up and make some points yourself! All you do around here is act like a whiny little bitch...

Hold up, hold up. Dude, you just told me to shut up and make some points. I've got some bad news for you, you're cracking up. I'm sorry you had to find out this way! Maybe you should hang out at Rabble for a while where the cheerleaders can console you. Good luck.

[WIP]

Hold up, hold up. Dude, you just told me to shut up and make some points. I've got some bad news for you, you're cracking up. I'm sorry you had to find out this way! Maybe you should hang out at Rabble for a while where the cheerleaders can console you. Good luck.

In other words, you are just a forum troll who has no interest in debating issues!

[Oleg Bach]

The human dog factor always should come into play - it is common to that feeding a dog does not ensure a compliant mutually co-operative dog - ungrateful mindless dogs will bite the hand that feeds them - so will human beings - even your own child will eventually attack you after YOU feeding it for 18 years - people are just do not show grace or class these days _ Iran is losing it's courteousness - and Israel lost it's class the day they decided that it is better to be a Nazi than be surpressed by one.

[Army Guy]

I did not create that Warsaw Ghetto analogy. It's been made a number of times over the last few years from Al Jazeera and other Arab sites of course, but it has also been used by Israeli peace activists who have become increasingly disturbed by the abuse of power, disregard for law, and simply the "might makes right" mentality that now pervades the majority of opinions on how to deal with the Palestinians and other Arabs. It's not my job to determine if it is a fitting analogy, but the cosmetic appearance of Israel keeping a large population trapped and "putting them on a diet" as one of Olmert's cabinet ministers called it, does make for disturbing comparisons.

Well then it's got to be true then, it's got the stamp of approval from both sides of the fence.....and while it is true it is not your job to determine if it's fitting , common sense would dictate that the Gaza situation does not even come close to warsaw ghetto conditions....You do have some common sense don't you...

And yet you've explained all in a few words, Cosmetic appearance that they are traped...if 5 out 9 ships can make it into Gaza i'm assuming that 5 out 9 can make it out of Gaza, that and those famous tunnels....Trapped my ass....and while i agree that perhaps Omerts comments should have had him fired, the people in Gaza are not starving to death....unless you have some proof of that...but there is not so it is all a war on words and how each side twists them to get what they want.....

No point bringing back all of the points of international law, but if you already read what I wrote previously( probably in one of the other thousand or so Muslim and MidEast threads), the only way the Israeli raid can be lawfully defended is by selective application of international law. If a ship is registered and not a pirate vessel itself, it cannot be forcibly boarded in international waters without the consent of the host nation, unless war has been declared, and the destination of the ship has been declared a belligerent by the nation attempting to enforce a legal blockade...ie. that stupid example of Lincoln and the Civil War etc.

Legality of blockaids....

Whether or not a blockade was seen as lawful depended on the national laws of the nations whose trade was influenced by the blockade. The Brazilian blockade of Río de la Plata in 1826, for instance, was considered lawful according to British law, but unlawful according to French and American law. The latter two countries announced they would actively defend their ships against Brazilian blockaders, while Britain was forced to steer for a peaceful solution between Brazil and Argentina.[5]

According to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994, a blockade is a legal method of warfare at sea, but is governed by rules. The blockading nation must publish a list of contraband. The manual describes what can never be contraband. Outside this list, the blockading nation is free to select anything as contraband. The blockading nation typically establish a blockaded area of water, but any ship can be inspected as soon as it is established that it is attempting to break the blockade. This inspection can occur inside the blockaded area or in international waters, but never inside the territorial waters of a neutral nation. A neutral ship must obey a request to stop for inspection from the blockading nation. If the situation so demands, the blockading nation can request that the ship divert to a known place or harbour for inspection. If the ship does not stop, then the ship is subject to capture. If people aboard the ship are resisting capture, they can be attacked. It is still not allowed to sink the ship, unless provision is made for rescueing the crew. Leaving the crew in liferafts / lifeboats does not constitue rescue. If a neutral ship is captured, any member of the crew, resisting capture can be treated as prisoners-of-war, while the remainder of the crew should be released. A neutral nation may choose to send a convoy accompanied by warships. The warship can provide guarantees that the convoy does not contain contraband. in which case, the blockading nation does not have any right of inspection.

My linken.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloc

I know it's a wiki link, but within it it does provide the UN links.

Is the Israeli blockade of Gaza legal? Not according to the U.N. The conduct of the blockade fits neatly under the definition of collective punishment by Israel's own admission. Has Israel declared war on Gaza? I haven't seen that yet! Therefore, if this whole bullshit process was really following some form of legitimacy besides the power of the gun, Israel would not be able to seize those ships in international waters, or in Gaza's waters also.

And while i do agree that collective punishment is illegal, and some Israelis ministers have said as much, that being said within inter national law a blockaid requires a list of forbidden products on that list a nation can put down what ever products it choses , those exceptions are listed in the link i gave you....

A declaration of war does not have to be declared , a block aid is an act of war in itself....however one does not have to be at war to have a blockaid, there is a conflict there...declared or not it is still war....

Who knows the exact procedure, since the Israelis seized every recording device they could find on the ships. Here's what else you wouldn't have learned about on FoxNews:

Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range Exclusive: Nine Turkish men on board Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times, autopsy results reveal.

Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

Now, go back to spin cycle!

Spin cycle you say, what exactly does your report prove....it proves that there was close quater combat, that commando's faced a multi amount of attackers....it proves you assume that they were lined up and shot exicution style.....if so how do explain shots to the front and rear of the bodies....it means they had no control over the situation....if they had control one simple shot to the back of the head would have been enough...No control means everyone was moving about attacking and defending from attacks..try it have 3 buddies attack you from different angles ....and try only to get frontal shots from a distance....now add a melle attack from serveral groups like this and tell me if you had a chance to help another soldier out by shooting one of his attackers in the back of the head you would'nt do so....because it might look bad later.....

[Oleg Bach]

Sounds like out of control mayhem. What I find distressing about the misuse of the marshall class is that in order to mobilize any armed force..you have to always lie to them - look what has reared it's ugly head in Afghanistan..that there are trillions of dollars in mineral wealth..The Russians knew that - as did the Americans - as do the Canadian high archy - to mobilize your armed forces by brain washing them with such drivel as "democracy" or so "a little girl can go to school" Is like murdering your best by lieing to them..it is akin to horrific usery and contempt of our best young people that the rich and powerful believe..will gladly sacrafice themselves if given a just cause - that really does not exist - what a waste of our best - and genetically speaking - what a waste of beautiful human resourses - of wonderful and powerful men who will not bring children into the world. BECAUSE - THEY ARE DEAD - at least the Jews are realistic about warfare- and they extract sperm for dead male soldiers.

[Army Guy]

you have to always lie to them - look what has reared it's ugly head in Afghanistan..that there are trillions of dollars in mineral wealth..The Russians knew that - as did the Americans - as do the Canadian high archy - to mobilize your armed forces by brain washing them with such drivel as "democracy" or so "a little girl can go to school" Is like murdering your best by lieing to them..it is akin to horrific usery and contempt of our best young people that the rich and powerful believe..

A trillion dollars worth of minerals....WOW, last time it was OIL, then it was a pipe line, now it's minerals....And yet how do you explain the fact that we are pulling out of Afghan in 2011....did we already get our share of that trillion, are we hoping they will remember our sacrifice and cut us in later.....

Or maybe just maybe there was a noble cause ....Nahh can't be ....

[sharkman]

Gee, like Canada enters military conflicts for treasures.