Hamas "We Con The World" Video

[Bob]

I never suggested that they are dying as a result of the blockade. I quoted the lyrics from the song saying that:

There is no people dying

So the best we can do

Is create

The greatest bluff of all

A little over a year ago, close to 1000 civilians were killed by the IDF. Over 300 of them children. Major organizations and the Goldstone report concluded that Israel violated international law when they attacked Gaza. This is what I was referring to.

You then proceeded to say that Gazans are not 'starving', which is where I pointed out that you were wrong.

When did you point that out? Gazans aren't starving. Did you just write some report for school regarding the Goldstone report, is that why you cling to it so tightly (the only thing you've ever spent time researching, apparently)? It's news to me that the thousand casualties were civilians - how many terrorists were killed?

There you go again, saying that these professional organizations are wrong and your word (IDF's word) is correct.

I back up my claims by using reports and research by well-respected, professional and neutral organizations such as ICRC, Amnesty and Richard Goldstone. You, on the other hand, have yet to produce any investigation or proof of your claims.

I acknowledge Israeli needs, however, unlike you, I do not believe anyone's needs trumps international law.

Keep on worshipping at the altar of international law, as you perceive it. Wrap yourself up in terms like "human rights" and "justice" to make yourself feel better.

[myata]

Again, why exactly wouldn't it possible to have an objective and independent inquiry of the incidents so that we could know the truth from more credible source than homemade satire?

Let's recall recent Georgia - Russia conflict, where both parties agreed to allow independent EU commission to invistegate the matter. What was it again that puts acts of Israel above any possibility of objective scrutiny? And its all powerful ally covering up for it no matter what?

[Bob]

Again, why exactly wouldn't it possible to have an objective and independent inquiry of the incidents so that we could know the truth from more credible source than homemade satire?

Let's recall recent Georgia - Russia conflict, where both parties agreed to allow independent EU commission to invistegate the matter. What was it again that puts acts of Israel above any possibility of objective scrutiny? And its all powerful ally covering up for it no matter what?

Are you joking me? You're comparing the Georgia-Russian war of 2008 to the events of the "Freedom Flotilla"? Since when was Israel above international scrutiny? The UN and international community condemns Israel more than any other nation, when there are endless examples of real problems occurring around the world that get virtually no attention, whatsoever. Do a search on the UN website and you'll find a volume of research on Gaza and the West Bank that eclipses other, more significant problems around the world - how about dictatorships in the Middle East denying basic social, political, religious, and economic freedoms? What about North Korea's oppression of its people and belligerence towards South Korea and other neighbours? I could list about twenty other examples of serious problems around the world that, when compared to the international focus on the Palestinians, are virtually invisible.

Recently, when North Korea sunk a South Korean warship (hardly the first act of war perpetrated by NK), where was the international inquiry, when approximately 50 SK servicepersons were killed? You don't see major hypocrisy from the "international community" (Russia and China, as examples) when they condemn Israel for the recent events off the cost of Gaza, but sit on the fence with respect to NK and Iran (they need more information to take a position, apparently), not to mention their own internal problems of corruption and oppression?

And the USA is hardly some sort of ally that "covers up" for Israel "no matter what". Where is the USA's support for Israel on this non-controversial issue of the "Freedom Flotilla"? It shouldn't be difficult for Obama to stand up for Israel's more than justified response to the deliberate provocation of the "Freedom Flotilla". Yet he remains silent and sits on the fence. How about Obama's statement that Israel's development of East Jerusalem is unacceptable, when he must know this is an issue most Israeli governments will not budge on (although Barak offered East Jerusalem to Arafat)? Is that your idea of full American support? lastly, the USA vetoing anti-Israel and anti-semitic proposals within the Security Council hardly constitutes "covering up".

To even suggest that Israel is beyond scrutiny when it is scrutinized unfairly and held to ridiculous standards (by the media and politicians around the world) is a preposterous suggestion.

Edited June 15, 2010 by Bob

[Guest TrueMetis]

Recently, when North Korea sunk a South Korean warship (hardly the first act of war perpetrated by NK), where was the international inquiry, when approximately 50 SK servicepersons were killed? You don't see major hypocrisy from the "international community" (Russia and China, as examples) when they condemn Israel for this act but sit on the fence with respect to NK and Iran, not to mention their own internal problems?

What they did with North Korea is sitting on the fence? Hope they never "sit on the fence" with me. Same goes for Iran, if a person ever got the same treatment as Iran they'd have the swat team at there door with orders to shoot to kill.

[jbg]

truth?... is this the truth you favour?

Let's face it. You hate Jews.

[dre]

Let's face it. You hate Jews.

[August1991]

Here's another older, French parody:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4935420245887936566#

Edited June 15, 2010 by August1991

[bloodyminded]

Ancient Greeks made satire/irony public. It was a great invention.

IME, non-westerners have difficulty understanding satire/irony. If you work with non-Westerners, try satire/irony with them. Chances are, they won't "get it". Even the phrase "get it" - hard to translate - is typically western.

"Get it" is difficult to translate because it is a more obvious example of what language, in fact, is composed of: metaphor, symbol.

And ALL language is built this way. your provincialism and xenophobia incredibly make you think that languages are unsophisticated....except for "Western" languages. Which would presumably include the sparkling new, Western language called "Hebrew."

Waldo, can you imagine that what is presented is not an exact presentation of what happened? That is, can you understand symbols?

Everybody does.

In fact, the only people I can currently think fo who insist they do not understand satire are Rush Limbaugh fans, who keep saying we can't "understand" limbaugh because of his "nuanced" satire.

If you really wish to see genuine and trenchant satire, watch the film In the Loop, which is about the run-up to an unnamed, controversial War...never explciit, it is nonetheless clearly about Iraq, and the US/UK relationship, as well as insider politics in Washington and on Downing Street.

Then watch your cute little reactionary-funded video again...and then get back to me about "satire."

-----

Sadly, we Westerners face a world of Muslims (and many others) who do not understand this idea of symbols.

My God, man...you actually think your hatred is a type of wisdom. your statement here is false by definition.

Edited June 15, 2010 by bloodyminded

[myata]

Are you joking me? You're comparing the Georgia-Russian war of 2008 to the events of the "Freedom Flotilla"? Since when was Israel above international scrutiny? The UN and international community condemns Israel more than any other nation, when there are endless examples of real problems occurring around the world that get virtually no attention, whatsoever. Do a search on the UN website and you'll find a volume of research on Gaza and the West Bank that eclipses other, more significant problems around the world - how about dictatorships in the Middle East denying basic social, political, religious, and economic freedoms? What about North Korea's oppression of its people and belligerence towards South Korea and other neighbours? I could list about twenty other examples of serious problems around the world that, when compared to the international focus on the Palestinians, are virtually invisible.

No, I'm talking about specific event that requires independent in objective investigation. So, again, why could not it happen?

Recently, when North Korea sunk a South Korean warship (hardly the first act of war perpetrated by NK), where was the international inquiry, when approximately 50 SK servicepersons were killed? You don't see major hypocrisy from the "international community" (Russia and China, as examples) when they condemn Israel for the recent events off the cost of Gaza, but sit on the fence with respect to NK and Iran (they need more information to take a position, apparently), not to mention their own internal problems of corruption and oppression?

Indeed there's been an international inquiry into this incident with results published, thanks for bringing this up. So, again why can't the same happen in the flotilla incident?

And the USA is hardly some sort of ally that "covers up" for Israel "no matter what". Where is the USA's support for Israel on this non-controversial issue of the "Freedom Flotilla"? It shouldn't be difficult for Obama to stand up for Israel's more than justified response to the deliberate provocation of the "Freedom Flotilla". Yet he remains silent and sits on the fence. How about Obama's statement that Israel's development of East Jerusalem is unacceptable, when he must know this is an issue most Israeli governments will not budge on (although Barak offered East Jerusalem to Arafat)? Is that your idea of full American support? lastly, the USA vetoing anti-Israel and anti-semitic proposals within the Security Council hardly constitutes "covering up".

Instead of calling for a credible independent inquiry as a number of other countries, the US has accepted Israel conducts its own internal investigation.

To even suggest that Israel is beyond scrutiny when it is scrutinized unfairly and held to ridiculous standards (by the media and politicians around the world) is a preposterous suggestion.

Again, we're talking about objective independent international inquiry with full access to relevant information. When it happens let me know I'll gladly accept my claim as "preposterious".

[myata]

Here's another older, French parody:

Digging up new sources of objective information to stay current? Cheer up!

[Bob]

No, I'm talking about specific event that requires independent in objective investigation. So, again, why could not it happen?

It is happening, the UN is conducting its own inquiry into the incident, just another example of the absurdity of the UN.

Indeed there's been an international inquiry into this incident with results published, thanks for bringing this up. So, again why can't the same happen in the flotilla incident?

It took two months for the UN to respond to this act of war from NK. Look at how quickly the UN moved to investigate the deaths of nine "activists" (agitators) as they attempted to break Israel's blockade of Gaza - illegally. Double standard much? How about the hundreds of people murdered my terrorism per month in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan? Any inquiries there?

Instead of calling for a credible independent inquiry as a number of other countries, the US has accepted Israel conducts its own internal investigation.

Not really. The USA gave credit to Israel to conducting its own internal investigation (which includes two foreigners), but has not made any move to reject a UN inquiry into the incident.

Again, we're talking about objective independent international inquiry with full access to relevant information. When it happens let me know I'll gladly accept my claim as "preposterious".

It's ridiculous - a convoy of openly anti-Israel "activists" (go to the Free Gaza movement's website and see for yourself how objective this organization is) try to run through the Israeli blockade in order to cause a political scene - knowing full well that most of the world is anti-Israel and attempting to exploit the expected media fallout. They wanted violence and they got it. If a group of agitators did that to Canadian border police they would've all been shot. The IDF videos show any honest observer how peaceful the folks on the Mavi Marmara are. The hatred one must have in one's heart in order to vicious attack the soldiers in such a manner is just another example of anti-semitism among Israel's enemies. These people aren't "peace activists", they are anti-Israel and anti-semitic "activists", and this is a prompting for international outcry?

Edited June 15, 2010 by Bob

[JB Globe]

II'm saying that a measure of Western Civilization/Education is whether someone understands satire. (Hard to do for Muslims, non-Westerners.)

I've travelled quite a bit and lived abroad in non-Western nations, and satire is alive and well in virtually all of them, and where it's not - it's because of a lack of freedom of speech, not because "those dumb savages don't get it"

You sound like a complete idiot.

Why do you sound like a complete idiot? Because you're making grand sweeping statements about things you know absolutely nothing about.

I would sound stupid if I threw up a thread that read: "Quantum Physics is BS!" because I don't know anything about physics.

For the life of me, I can't understand why people like you set yourselves up to look like fools, is it a complete and utter lack of self-respect, so that you don't care how bad you look?

Just stick with what you know, and ask questions about what you don't know, that's how you learn.

It's not that difficult to do.

[bloodyminded]

If a group of agitators did that to Canadian border police they would've all been shot.

If Canadian border police moved many miles outside their jurisdiction to attack the "agitators," killed nine of them, four or five shot in the back, and then deigned to withhold any video evidence except their own...they would be arrested.

The IDF videos show any honest observer how peaceful the folks on the Mavi Marmara are. The hatred one must have in one's heart in order to vicious attack the soldiers in such a manner is just another example of anti-semitism among Israel's enemies. These people aren't "peace activists", they are anti-Israel and anti-semitic "activists", and this is a prompting for international outcry?

Stop declaring that everyone is an anti-semite. It's cowardly and dishonest.

[JB Globe]

But Didi Remez, an Israeli who runs the liberal-left news analysis blog Coteret, said the clip was "repulsive" and reflected how out of touch Israeli opinion was with the rest of the world. "It shows a complete lack of understanding of how the incident is being perceived abroad," he said. Award-winning Israeli journalist Meron Rapoport said the clip demonstrated prejudice against Muslims. "It's roughly done, not very sophisticated, anti-Muslim – and childish for the government to be behind such a clip," he said.

And Israel's slide to self-isolation continues. It seems that there is a growing segment of the population in Israel that doesn't seem to care how they are perceived even by their staunchest allies.

These Shas-Likhudniks are so caught up in a self-destructive form of ultra-nationalism that they can't see that they're setting themselves up for a huge blow to their international prestige, and international trade, which threatens the future of the country they claim to be so supportive of.

[Bob]

If Canadian border police moved many miles outside their jurisdiction to attack the "agitators," killed nine of them, four or five shot in the back, and then deigned to withhold any video evidence except their own...they would be arrested.

Wrong, if Quebec became a hostile belligerent to Canada - Canada would be legally and morally obligated to blockade the territory to protect Canadian security. Let's assume Newfoundland was hostile to Canada and continuously fired rockets into Canada, Canada would be legally and morally obligated to intercept all vessels attempting to arrive Newfoundland's ports through the Atlantic, so the "international waters" argument is absolute garbage. The legal concept of "international waters" doesn't trump the moral supremacy of Israeli lives and security.

Are we supposed to apologize for not letting those who want to murder us rearm themselves because our ships can't stop terrorists from being resupplied in "international waters" by intercepting all incoming vessels?

Your "shot in the back" comments are stupid.

Stop declaring that everyone is an anti-semite. It's cowardly and dishonest.

How else am I to interpret the proclamation of "go back to Auschwitz" from the Mavi Marmara and group prayer of "battling the Jews" that took place before the agitators attacked the IDF?

Furthermore, attacking Israel's right to self-defense is synonymous with anti-semitism. If you undermine Israel's ability to defend itself, you're inviting that label upon yourself, as well.

[Bob]

And Israel's slide to self-isolation continues. It seems that there is a growing segment of the population in Israel that doesn't seem to care how they are perceived even by their staunchest allies.

These Shas-Likhudniks are so caught up in a self-destructive form of ultra-nationalism that they can't see that they're setting themselves up for a huge blow to their international prestige, and international trade, which threatens the future of the country they claim to be so supportive of.

Better unpopular than dead.

[jbg]

It took two months for the UN to respond to this act of war from NK. Look at how quickly the UN moved to investigate the deaths of nine "activists" (agitators) as they attempted to break Israel's blockade of Gaza - illegally. Double standard much? How about the hundreds of people murdered my terrorism per month in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan? Any inquiries there?

**************************

Not really. The USA gave credit to Israel to conducting its own internal investigation (which includes two foreigners), but has not made any move to reject a UN inquiry into the incident.

Where, for that matter, is the "objective investigation" of the attack by the Pakistan Taliban against hospitalized victims of a mosque attack? Or this atrocity (link)?

[bloodyminded]

Wrong, if Quebec became a hostile belligerent to Canada - Canada would be legally and morally obligated to blockade the territory to protect Canadian security. Let's assume Newfoundland was hostile to Canada and continuously fired rockets into Canada, Canada would be legally and morally obligated to intercept all vessels attempting to arrive Newfoundland's ports through the Atlantic, so the "international waters" argument is absolute garbage. The legal concept of "international waters" doesn't trump the moral supremacy of Israeli lives and security.

Surely I don't need to decode your fatuous analogy to explain why it's misbegotten on every level?

Your "shot in the back" comments are stupid.

And your bland, blank, dewy-eyed assumption--that you don't need any evidence at all to "know" that the military acted righteously--is based purely and only on absolute servility to Power. Nothing else.

Furthermore, attacking Israel's right to self-defense is synonymous with anti-semitism. If you undermine Israel's ability to defend itself, you're inviting that label upon yourself, as well.

I'll assume you're using "you" in the rhetorical sense...since if you accuse me, personally, of being an antisemite, this would make you a pantywaisted, morally degenerate little liar. So ok, youy weren't referring specifically to me.

As for defense--I don't for one second decry Israel's right to defense, which is in fact the duty of the government.

I am calling into question Israel's behaviour, its execution of defense (or what it claims as defense), not its ability or duty to defend.

Obviously we strenuously disagree....but you have no need to call the motives of everyone who disagrees into question, and assume some sinister antisemitism which undergirds most critics of Israel. It's false, and it's monumentally counterproductive to sane debate.

Edited June 15, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Shady]

your pomposity presumes ad hominem - think again. Of course, you ignore answering the favoured truth question... as you also, apparently, ignore the background, motivations and funding of individuals/organizations supporting the video creation... supporting your favoured satirical "truth".

LOL! Whatever the issue, Waldo continues his Joe McCarthy-like tactics of smearing and questioning the background and motivations of people he disagrees with. You can take a look at the exact same behavior of his in any thread about global warming. Of course, he doesnt care at all about the background and motivations of the organizers of the flotilla.

Just those damn Jews. Right Waldo.

[jbg]

I am calling into question Israel's behaviour, its execution of defense (or what it claims as defense), not its ability or duty to defend.

How is preventing Gaza from being armed to the teeth not defensive? As far as the argument that Hamas has a "right of resistance". they sure do. With such a right comes the right of the "resistee" to use highly lethal force.

[naomiglover]

How is preventing Gaza from being armed to the teeth not defensive? As far as the argument that Hamas has a "right of resistance". they sure do. With such a right comes the right of the "resistee" to use highly lethal force.

There is no right to commit war crimes, unless if you're a rogue state that sees itself above the law.

[Shady]

There is no right to commit war crimes, unless if you're a rogue state that sees itself above the law.

Yep, just like Hamas.

[Bob]

There is no right to commit war crimes, unless if you're a rogue state that sees itself above the law.

Everything Israel does, in your eyes, is a war crime. It's very existence is a crime for you. There's something very, very, very wrong with you. It's tragic that you're apparently Jewish, but I bet you don't identify yourself as Jewish. I bet when asked, you say something like "my parents are Jewish", rather than "I am Jewish". Am I right? You're probably embarrassed about your own ethnicity...

[bloodyminded]

How is preventing Gaza from being armed to the teeth not defensive? As far as the argument that Hamas has a "right of resistance". they sure do. With such a right comes the right of the "resistee" to use highly lethal force.

Once again...since a few of you refuse to listen to clealry-stated points:

I am not disagreeing with Israel's right to self defense.

I am arguing against some of the methods used.

Yes, yes, you disagree with me. Awesome. Excellent.

But to imply, as our "antisemite" screecher Bob keeps doing, that I am opposed to Israeli defense itself, and therefore am also an anti-semite....

Well, let's juts say that this is cowardly; it's an insistence that one is terrified of debate, and doesn't want an intelligent disagreement on anything.

Plus, I suspect that anyone who calls me an antisemite is, in fact, himself an antisemite....interesting.

[naomiglover]

Let's face it. You hate Jews.

Heh.

Another gold star for the resident "radical leftist lawyer".