Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Give them credit. It takes a special kind to call yourself progressive while clinging desperately to the failed ideologies of times past... I just hate it when leftist use that word "progressive" to describe themselves... Complete and total arrogance... They're not progressive,they are humanistic leftists!!! And I'm a union man and I can't tolerate the "new and progressive" left.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 We are talking about the NDP not the Conservatives get with the program. Seriously though you never provide real examples and are all spin. Right back atcha... show where the NDP have repudiated the nationalization certain parties....while you are at it..show ehere the NDP support enshrining property rights in the constitution... if it talks like a duck walks like a duck it's probably a socialists... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesterday Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 (edited) No I'm not...I'm mocking(kinda like Dancer) the silly semantic lables that get thrown around.I don't think the NDP are any more Communist than the Conservative party are Fascist.There are fringe nutters in both parties,though One thing ...Communism and Fascism are not the same at all.They are totalitarian,authoritarian political ethos',but they come at it from opposite angles.... Hi, yes I see the 2 different angles. It is the long list of attributes that need to be defined as either or other that often leaves me feeling confused. Sometimes I can't read or absorb enough fast enough to satisfy my curiosity. The overlaps of each agenda are endless. Edited June 10, 2010 by Yesterday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Hi, yes I see the 2 different angles. It is the long list of attributes that need to be defined as either or other that often leaves me feeling confused. Sometimes I can't read or absorb enough fast enough to satisfy my curiosity. The overlaps of each agenda are endless. There are three identifiable differences between a Fascist abd Commmunist government. In a Communist state,the state owns and controls everythingThe house you live in,the car(assuming you own a car)you drive,the company you work for,the sewer system,the hospitals...everything The difference a Fascist state has is the private property ownership issue,the corporatism(a quasi free market system)issue,and,nationalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Right back atcha... show where the NDP have repudiated the nationalization certain parties....while you are at it..show ehere the NDP support enshrining property rights in the constitution... if it talks like a duck walks like a duck it's probably a socialists... Again it happened in 1956 in the Winnipeg declaration. You can read it but this is the key quote "there will be an important role for public, private and co-operative enterprise working together in the people's interest" In other words the embrace of a mixed economy WHICH CANADA HAS and to get back to the original point their is no need for the Liberals to ever ask the NDP to declare it. It has been part of the party from 1956 onward. It is the first sentence if you actually read when I told you about it 4 pages back. The NDP supports a mix economy just as it has for 55 years. This might be news to you but that is the type of economy we have in Canada and if you don't like you it you better get to work on changing it. http://www.connexions.org/CxLibrary/CX5374.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Again it happened in 1956 in the Winnipeg declaration. ..... There were a lot of words but no answer....care to provide a link that shows the NDP repudiating the nationalization of certain industries? In other words, care to show that they have turned their back on socialism (not just in name only)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 There were a lot of words but no answer....care to provide a link that shows the NDP repudiating the nationalization of certain industries? In other words, care to show that they have turned their back on socialism (not just in name only)? I JUST POSTED IT. It is called the Winnipeg manifesto. Now show me where the Conservatives have done the same ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Dancer... You're starting to head towards Joe McCarthy Wackville.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Dancer... You're starting to head towards Joe McCarthy Wackville.... He just didn't think anyone was educated enough on the NDP to call him on his crap then point out to the exact moment in time when the party moved away from the ideas of Socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 I JUST POSTED IT. It is called the Winnipeg manifesto. Now show me where the Conservatives have done the same ok? From your link... The principles of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation.Abstract: Excerpt: In the cooperative commonwealth there will be an important role for public, private and cooperative enterprise working together in the people's interest. The CCF has always recognized public ownership as the most effective means of breaking the stranglehold of private monopolies on the life of the nation and of facilitating the social planning necessary for economic security and advance. The CCF will, therefore, extend public ownership wherever it is necessary for the achievement of these objectives. At the same time, the CCF also recognizes that in many fields there will be need for private enterprise which can make a useful contribution to the development of our economy. The cooperative commonwealth will, therefore, provide appropriate opportunities for private business as well as publicly-owned industry. The CCF will protect and make more widespread the ownership of family farms by those who will till them, of homes by those who live in them, and of all personal possessions necessary for the well-being of the Canadian people. In many fields the best means of ensuring justice to producers and consumers is the cooperative form of ownership. In such fields, every assistance will be given to form cooperatives and credit unions and to strengthen those already in existence. No where do they repudiate socialism. The NDP is a socialist party and aI agree with the Liberal who demands that the NDP renounce socialism before any talk of merger can go forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesterday Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 There are three identifiable differences between a Fascist abd Commmunist government. In a Communist state,the state owns and controls everythingThe house you live in,the car(assuming you own a car)you drive,the company you work for,the sewer system,the hospitals...everything The difference a Fascist state has is the private property ownership issue,the corporatism(a quasi free market system)issue,and,nationalism. This is not what I had thought of as the difference between fascism and communism, I thought this the difference between socialism and communism. Both with varying degrees of overlap within their respective quarter of the political grid. Fascism I had looked at as more of an extreme left or right of either faction. I have a lot to learn. Thanks for letting me ask questions so freely and without embarrassment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 This is not what I had thought of as the difference between fascism and communism, I thought this the difference between socialism and communism. Both with varying degrees of overlap within their respective quarter of the political grid. Fascism I had looked at as more of an extreme left or right of either faction. I have a lot to learn. Thanks for letting me ask questions so freely and without embarrassment. Well....It should be noted thatsome politcal scientists think that Fascism is a leftist construct...There are some that think it's neither...Most would say it is the extreme version of right wing political theory...NAZIsm would be it's most virulent form to date. Lictor might be along to tell us that it's a benign,peace loving ideology...He's ...uh...interesting,to say the least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 (edited) From your link... No where do they repudiate socialism. The NDP is a socialist party and aI agree with the Liberal who demands that the NDP renounce socialism before any talk of merger can go forward. Those things you highlighted are not Socialist they are Canadian. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. There are some aspects of the economy which the Canadian people think the government is better at controlling like Medical care, we have a mandatory pension plan as well. If you think that is socialist then you must think the Conservatives are socialists as well for supporting those. What you highlight is the HOW CANADA WORKS, if you don't like the country I suggest another country where they do not have public ownership of interest Somalia might be nice for you. Again in the Winnipeg declaration the CCF embraced the concept of private enterprise and a private economy thus renouncing Socialism. NOW SHOW ME THE DOCUMENT WHERE THE CONSERVATIVES DO THE SAME. BTW Canada "extend public ownership wherever it is necessary for the achievement of these objectives." In medical insurance in 1966, if you think it is socialist then please leave the conservative party which supports it ok? Edited June 10, 2010 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 (edited) Posted twice Edited June 10, 2010 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesterday Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 From your link... No where do they repudiate socialism. The NDP is a socialist party and aI agree with the Liberal who demands that the NDP renounce socialism before any talk of merger can go forward. The NDP article you quoted does sound reminiscent of the Social Credit Theory. I remember reading a post elsewhere on this forum that opined how the Liberals are moving to the center and more ready to define themselves with almost conservative interests. Perhaps I am starting to see the difference correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Those things you highlighted are not Socialist they are Canadian. That is sophistry. There is nothing more socialist than nationaliszing private property There are some aspects of the economy which the Canadian people think the government is better at controlling like Medical care, we have a mandatory pension plan as well. If you think that is socialist then you must think the Conservatives are socialists as well for supporting those. The government did not nationalize the heathcare industry. Doctors are self employed. We also have a vibrant self administered pension system which will give far more wealth into the hands of Canadians than the CPP NOW SHOW ME THE DOCUMENT WHERE THE CONSERVATIVES DO THE SAME. Show me where the conservatives have pledged to nationalize an industry BTW Canada "extend public ownership wherever it is necessary for the achievement of these objectives." In medical insurance in 1966, if you think it is socialist then please leave the conservative party which supports it ok? Show me where the health industry is government owned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 From your link... No where do they repudiate socialism. The NDP is a socialist party and aI agree with the Liberal who demands that the NDP renounce socialism before any talk of merger can go forward. Of course,it's the Lib's making noises about merging the two parties,not the NDP... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 The NDP article you quoted does sound reminiscent of the Social Credit Theory. I remember reading a post elsewhere on this forum that opined how the Liberals are moving to the center and more ready to define themselves with almost conservative interests. Perhaps I am starting to see the difference correctly? NO that is the Canadian economy it is how it works. The NDP, CCF at the time ditched their original manifesto in favor of one that embraced the Canada they helped shape though good governance in Saskatchewan. They weren't socialist they were pragmatist which believed in helping where they could. They rewrote the whole ideas of the party to reflect that. That is the party that exists today, one that believes in free enterprise but that sometimes the government is the only thing big enough, and that has the public in mind that certain things they should be the business if. Power and health care come to mind right now. That is Canada, that is the country we live in. Dance doesn't like I have already suggested a country he might like more where they don't believe in the things he calls Socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Of course,it's the Lib's making noises about merging the two parties,not the NDP... Indeed. They would lose the greater part of their base if they repudiate socialism...the liberals are only looking for the 30% that aren't dyed in the wool socialists...about 6% to 8% of the national vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 That is sophistry. There is nothing more socialist than nationaliszing private property The government did not nationalize the heathcare industry. Doctors are self employed. We also have a vibrant self administered pension system which will give far more wealth into the hands of Canadians than the CPP Show me where the conservatives have pledged to nationalize an industry Show me where the health industry is government owned... I said Medical insurance maybe put your reading glasses on, it is called Medicare you might want to read about it. The government took it over in ever province following the CCF's (NDP's) example in Saskatchewan. It is like you live in 1940 or missed the last 60 years. The conservatives support it (In fact they help bring it in with Diefenbaker) so if you think it is socialism I suggest you leave the party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Indeed. They would lose the greater part of their base if they repudiate socialism...the liberals are only looking for the 30% that aren't dyed in the wool socialists...about 6% to 8% of the national vote It already happened 55 years ago. Just because you don't like the facts doesn't mean you can ignore them which is what you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesterday Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 OK reading Punked last message, I am still missing something. Brains, maybe....perhaps I should ask where on the grid does the Social Credit Theory sit. I realize that I am being redundant with this theory but it is the only socialist platform I am at all familiar with so it is my starting point in understanding the Canadian version of Socialism. Sort of a mixture of socialism and democracy touted by both the Liberals and the NDP and the Green Party too at varying degrees. Are the Liberals merely demanding the NDP adhere to their own version of socialism or what are the Liberals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 It already happened 55 years ago. Just because you don't like the facts doesn't mean you can ignore them which is what you do. Nationalizing private property is not repudiating socialism...nor is it particularly Canadian...unless Huga chaxez is now a Blue Jays booster... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Nationalizing private property is not repudiating socialism...nor is it particularly Canadian...unless Huga chaxez is now a Blue Jays booster... Dancer...You just entered Joe McCarthy Whackville.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 OK reading Punked last message, I am still missing something. Brains, maybe....perhaps I should ask where on the grid does the Social Credit Theory sit. I realize that I am being redundant with this theory but it is the only socialist platform I am at all familiar with so it is my starting point in understanding the Canadian version of Socialism. Sort of a mixture of socialism and democracy touted by both the Liberals and the NDP and the Green Party too at varying degrees. Are the Liberals merely demanding the NDP adhere to their own version of socialism or what are the Liberals? The Soc Creds are closer to the reform party. They are the right wing populist party to the CCF's left wing populism at the time. Does that make sense? They both have their roots in the earlier populist movements in the west of the United Farmers and the progressives, bit the Soc Creds are right wing the CCF is left wing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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