punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 (edited) Pretty much... They let their member vote according to conscience on the Long Gun Registry issue,but on same sex marriage(a personal moral issue if I've ever seen one)...No way! One was a private members bill long gun registry (which the party has never whipped a vote on because that is something the members of the party of decided) and one was not (the party whips votes which are not private members bills). Again please get educated on this stuff before you post silly things. In fact there is a long standing tradition in Canada that private members bills not be whipped. How ever the Liberals and Conservatives hate giving their MPs the chance to represent their ridding and the people in it. Edited June 9, 2010 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 One was a private members bill (which the party has never whipped a vote on because that is something the members of the party of decided) and one was not. Why did the party not allow members to vote on their conscience on the same sex marriage bill? I don't get that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Why did the party not allow members to vote on their conscience on the same sex marriage bill? I don't get that? It wasn't a private members bill. It was a government bill and as such the party whipped the vote (as it always has) one member stepped out line on that and voted the other they were kicked out. They then went on to lose that seat and NDP member Niki Ashton is in it now. She is pro gay marriage so I would say the NDP did the right thing because it appears that person was not voting on what their consistents wanted anyway. BTW Niki was one of 12 NDP to vote to kill the gun registry because that is what her consistents want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 No you can do as you like in the party and bring change from with in the party however if you step outside the what the party has set as its agenda in governance and not follow the tenants the party has put you there to follow you can expect to leave. . Baloney..you just weote that the BDP remounced socialism...yet the socialist wing is entertained...obviously they either still hold socialism dear or they only boot some who don't follow the socialist agenda )abortion, same sex etc etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 (edited) Baloney..you just weote that the BDP remounced socialism...yet the socialist wing is entertained...obviously they either still hold socialism dear or they only boot some who don't follow the socialist agenda )abortion, same sex etc etc) They aren't entertained they are allowed to be there. It is a democracy just was we don't hunt down those who believe in Socialism in Canada and take away their voting rights. The NDP is a democracy and you can form a caucus as you wish and you can create resolutions and pass them if you have a big enough voting block. It is called democracy the Conservatives and Liberals might try it sometime. However in 1956 in the Winnipeg Declaration the CCF dropped Socialism embraced a mix economy and that has been the parties stance ever sense. It comes up from time to time and is always shot down by a large majority of the party. Seriously all you have to do is learn a little bit of history to know that. Edited June 9, 2010 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Yes, the valiant NDP from whom we all have so much to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 They aren't entertained they are allowed to be there. It is a democracy just was we don't hunt down those who believe in Socialism in Canada and take away their voting rights. The NDP is a democracy and you can form a caucus as you wish and you can create resolutions and pass them if you have a big enough voting block. It is called democracy the Conservatives and Liberals might try it sometime. And the NDpers who have questions about abortion and SSM? Clearly that is differnt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 (edited) However in 1956 in the Winnipeg Declaration the CCF dropped Socialism. Can you categorically show (with citations) that the NDP no longer wishes to nationalize any businesses... Edited June 9, 2010 by M.Dancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 And the NDpers who have questions about abortion and SSM? Clearly that is differnt Nope they are allowed to be there. Show me one MEMEBER kicked out of the party for that view. MPs are allowed to have their opinions to, however when it comes to a whipped vote they have vote the way the party has set out in the parties convention. Members don't go to convention pass hundreds of resolution to set out the future of the party, Nominate and fund MPs to run to have them do whatever they want. However if they want to put forward a resolution and you get a big enough voting block you to could change the NDP. You really don't understand how democracy works do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Can you categorically show (with citations) that the NDP no longer wishes to nationalize any businesses... You don't know what a mixed economy is do you? You don't understand the economy of Canada do you? The government is allowed to be in business and sometimes they are the best guys for the job. That however is not socialism. Again please become an informed voter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 You really don't understand how democracy works do you? It's clear that you don't understand how democracy works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Yes, the valiant NDP from whom we all have so much to learn. Got it, it is not the party for you. You would rather the Liberals or Conservatives who send all their ideas to a back room for 10 people to decide the direction of the party or the country. Just not for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 (edited) Got it, it is not the party for you. You would rather the Liberals or Conservatives who send all their ideas to a back room for 10 people to decide the direction of the party or the country. Just not for me. Oh, you're so right, I'd much rather be part of a party that punishes all thought and speech that isn't aligned with party doctrine. The Conservatives and Liberals are big tent parties with wide ranging views.....the NDP...not so much. Edited June 9, 2010 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 It's clear that you don't understand how democracy works. How does it work explain to me how thousands of members voting to set and agenda for their leaders to follow is not democratic or how when someone does not follow the parties agenda kicking them out of that party is not democratic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Oh, you're so right, I'd much rather be part of a party that punishes all thought and speech that isn't aligned with party doctrine. The Conservatives and Liberals are big tent parties with wide ranging views.....the NDP...not so much. The Conservatives kick people out of their party for not voting the party line, remember Bill Casey the Liberals do it to Carolyn Parrish do you remember her. The only difference is with the NDP instead of one person (the leader) making the rules it is the party and its members that do. Gosh History much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 How does it work explain to me how thousands of members voting to set and agenda for their leaders to follow is not democratic or how when someone does not follow the parties agenda kicking them out of that party is not democratic. Democratic totalitarianism. In a true democracy, people are free to express their opinions and vote based on their beliefs. Not so in NDP land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 The Conservatives kick people out of their party for not voting the party line, remember Bill Casey the Liberals do it to Carolyn Parrish do you remember her. The only difference is with the NDP instead of one person (the leader) making the rules it is the party and its members that do. So the NDP is all about the tyranny of the (left wing whack job) majority. Got it. I'm certainly glad that the NDP in Manitoba doesn't operate like that. When the base does something stupid, the leader tells them that it's not a priority...and ignores them. Their voice is heard....it doesn't mean it's listened to. That's representative democracy in the western sense. Everyone has a voice and a vote....but that doesn't mean that they always win...even if they're in the majority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Show me one MEMEBER kicked out of the party for that view. I doubt they are allowed in with that view...never the less the NDp kicked out an entire wing....the quebec NDP were expelled in the 90s for siding with the separtists. Then they expelled Buzz Hargrove for endorsing Paul Martin's hugely succesful fiscal policy... And of course the infamous expulsion of the waffle.... Could you elaborate some more about how open and democratic the People's party is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Democratic totalitarianism. In a true democracy, people are free to express their opinions and vote based on their beliefs. Not so in NDP land. No you can express you opinions that is just fine. You however can not take the parties money pledge to vote how the party sets the agenda and whatever you want. What would be the point of having a party if that was how it worked. Every 2 years we spend 4 days debating and passing resolutions, that is the time to express your opinions and try to change minds however if the thousands of members there say something that you don't like then you can either leave the party or try again at the next convention. You can not go and do whatever you like after the party set out its agenda. Just like in Canada just because you don't agree with law does not mean you get to break it. You can lobby to change it but you don't get to break it. It is call democracy. You can have your opinion but if you are an elected member of the party you have to vote the way the members set out. Peter Stoffer is a great example. He believes and support the war however he votes with the party because we set out an agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 (edited) I doubt they are allowed in with that view...never the less the NDp kicked out an entire wing....the quebec NDP were expelled in the 90s for siding with the separtists. Then they expelled Buzz Hargrove for endorsing Paul Martin's hugely succesful fiscal policy... And of course the infamous expulsion of the waffle.... Could you elaborate some more about how open and democratic the People's party is? Unless you hold fast to the moral,social,and,cultural relativism of the modern left,you're a crypto-fascist... Edited June 9, 2010 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 No you can express you opinions that is just fine. You however can not take the parties money pledge to vote how the party sets the agenda and whatever you want. What would be the point of having a party if that was how it worked. Every 2 years we spend 4 days debating and passing resolutions, that is the time to express your opinions and try to change minds however if the thousands of members there say something that you don't like then you can either leave the party or try again at the next convention. You can not go and do whatever you like after the party set out its agenda. Like I said, democratic totalitarianism. You can't compare party resolutions to laws. Party resolutions really aren't binding on much of anything. People should be free to vote their own (and their constituents) conscience on controversial issues. The thing is, a party isn't just about the base. It's about appealing to the public, and working towards the broader concept of the greater good. Partisan ideologues like yourself have trouble seeing that, because you can't see anything beyond the party and it's set ideology. That's why you and the federal NDP will never be in a position to run this country as long as that kind of attitude maintains. Partisanship like that doesn't fly in Canada...and that's why the NDP doesn't fly in federal politics in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 I doubt they are allowed in with that view...never the less the NDp kicked out an entire wing....the quebec NDP were expelled in the 90s for siding with the separtists. Then they expelled Buzz Hargrove for endorsing Paul Martin's hugely succesful fiscal policy... And of course the infamous expulsion of the waffle.... Could you elaborate some more about how open and democratic the People's party is? Yes I could. THE PARTY sets an agenda at its convention. The parties view (that it set out at its convention) is that Quebec is a part of Canada. You don't get to go out and change the parties view after it has set it out. You can lobby and rally for it at convention WHEN WE MAKE POLICY you however do not get to make policy as you go along. The Parties view is that if you go out and say "vote liberal" then you are out. We set that out at our original convention when the only reason Tommy ran is because the other guy wanted to fold the party up and endorse the Liberals. You want to change that you do it convention. The Waffle was never kicked out of the Federal party. It was kicked out of the Ontario party and no members were kicked out. The Ontario party set forward a resolution (which actually went back to the 1940s with the communists when they were kicked out of the Ontario CCF) because the Party does not want to have parties with in the party. You can caucus and you can put forward resolutions lobby and speak your mind. You can not use the party to create your own independent party. Which the waffle did. You might remember the Waffle leader though one guy named Ed Broadbent. Again no one was kicked out again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Like I said, democratic totalitarianism. You can't compare party resolutions to laws. Party resolutions really aren't binding on much of anything. People should be free to vote their own (and their constituents) conscience on controversial issues. The thing is, a party isn't just about the base. It's about appealing to the public, and working towards the broader concept of the greater good. Partisan ideologues like yourself have trouble seeing that, because you can't see anything beyond the party and it's set ideology. That's why you and the federal NDP will never be in a position to run this country as long as that kind of attitude maintains. Partisanship like that doesn't fly in Canada...and that's why the NDP doesn't fly in federal politics in Canada. Well...To be fair,that's the mindset of the federal NDP.Many provincial NDP governments have been alot more pragmatic.You have one in Manitoba right now that could have been a good one the federal party could model itself on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 There is no distinction between the federal and provincial NDP. They seem to operate differently, but they're the same party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Like I said, democratic totalitarianism. You can't compare party resolutions to laws. Party resolutions really aren't binding on much of anything. People should be free to vote their own (and their constituents) conscience on controversial issues. The thing is, a party isn't just about the base. It's about appealing to the public, and working towards the broader concept of the greater good. Partisan ideologues like yourself have trouble seeing that, because you can't see anything beyond the party and it's set ideology. That's why you and the federal NDP will never be in a position to run this country as long as that kind of attitude maintains. Partisanship like that doesn't fly in Canada...and that's why the NDP doesn't fly in federal politics in Canada. No they should not. There is no point of having a party if that is what happens. If that is what you want you should vote independent because both the Liberals and Conservatives as I have already pointed do the samething. The only thing that is different is instead of 1 leader making the rules thousands of party members make the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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