Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Well...To be fair,that's the mindset of the federal NDP.Many provincial NDP governments have been alot more pragmatic.You have one in Manitoba right now that could have been a good one the federal party could model itself on... Most definitely. Last election, I voted NDP provincially and Conservative federally. Party lines are rather irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 (edited) I doubt they are allowed in with that view...never the less the NDp kicked out an entire wing....the quebec NDP were expelled in the 90s for siding with the separtists. Then they expelled Buzz Hargrove for endorsing Paul Martin's hugely succesful fiscal policy... And of course the infamous expulsion of the waffle.... Could you elaborate some more about how open and democratic the People's party is? I would'nt fault any federal party for kicking out a wing of said party that sided with sesesh traitors.Imbecile Mulroney tried to get in bed with those types in the '80's and we have the Bloc as a longstanding reminder of that stupidity. Edited June 9, 2010 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesterday Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 (edited) Liberal (not the party but the actual belief) is a pretty simple one. I think John Rawl's defined it as a society or belief where the worse off are still better off in that country or under that political ideal then anywhere else. Which can mean a lot of things. It does not have to be socialist, I would say I am a Liberal but I am very far way from Socialist. Hi Punked, thanks for not making me feel stupid. Would it be a better understanding of left/right/center alignment that would help me to define these groups better? I do not know enough yet to define myself but upon doing the political test elsewhere on this forum I came out dead center left. However, it will take some time before I would venture an opinion on whether or not it accurately describes me. Edited June 9, 2010 by Yesterday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 No they should not. There is no point of having a party if that is what happens. If that is what you want you should vote independent because both the Liberals and Conservatives as I have already pointed do the samething. No, they don't do the same thing. Both the LPC and CPC are pragmatic central parties. The Liberal party, right now, is disjointed and lost for ideas, but they aren't ideological or rigid. The federal wing of the NDP seems to be....and thats's why it never gets anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 There is no distinction between the federal and provincial NDP. They seem to operate differently, but they're the same party. Their memberships are tied but they govern and operate differently and their is a distinction that resolution was passed AT THE CONVENTION this year. Provincial parties set out their own agendas, and the Federal party sets out their own agendas. So you can have a provincial party which is pro-life now if they wanted while the Federal one is pro-choice. AGAIN BECAUSE THE MEMBERS SAID SO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 No, they don't do the same thing. Both the LPC and CPC are pragmatic central parties. The Liberal party, right now, is disjointed and lost for ideas, but they aren't ideological or rigid. The federal wing of the NDP seems to be....and thats's why it never gets anywhere. They through members out for not voting the party line again Bill Casey for the Cons and the Liberal have a long history of doing this Joe Comuzzi just the most recent. Seriously it is like your head is in the sand. That is the nature of party politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 But in the NDP, I'd have to be a member of both the pro life (sic) and pro choice sides of the party. Not so in the other parties. Quite frankly, I don't care what the members said. As a liberal, it usually wouldn't matter (though this latest guy isn't so great with that freedom). I can be a Liberal and disagree with the base at the same time. I have my own mind, believe it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Most definitely. Last election, I voted NDP provincially and Conservative federally. Party lines are rather irrelevant. I think it's because at the provincial level,that's where the financial rubber meets the proverbial road.For the most part(Bob Rae and Clark's gov't in BC excluded),most provincial NDP governments are fairly pragmatic.They're slightly left,but not wacko left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 They through members out for not voting the party line again Bill Casey for the Cons and the Liberal have a long history of doing this Joe Comuzzi just the most recent. Seriously it is like your head is in the sand. That is the nature of party politics. I don't support the current Liberal leadership...or the last Liberal leadership. That said, the budget vote isn't the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say controversial issues. My head isn't in the sand. But yours seems to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 Hi Punked, thanks for not making me feel stupid. Would it be a better understanding of left/right/center alignment that would help me to define these groups better? I do not know enough yet to define myself but upon doing the political test elsewhere on this forum I came out dead center left. However, it will take some time before I would venture an opinion on whether or not it accurately describes me. I was sort of the same way on that test.I was about half way centre left on the economic scale,but on the authoritarian/libertarian scale I was basically right in the middle.Actually,I leaned slightly to the libertarian side... How old are you? Are you a political science student? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 They're slightly left,but not wacko left. Yes, that would describe the current government under the current premier (who I'm quickly growing tired of...if only there were an alternative). The last government though was to the right of the (joke of a party) provincial Liberals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2010 Report Share Posted June 9, 2010 But in the NDP, I'd have to be a member of both the pro life (sic) and pro choice sides of the party. Not so in the other parties. Quite frankly, I don't care what the members said. As a liberal, it usually wouldn't matter (though this latest guy isn't so great with that freedom). I can be a Liberal and disagree with the base at the same time. I have my own mind, believe it or not. I believe it and I understand what you are saying. I myself express my opinions all the time opinions which the party does not like. I have never been told to stop talking or to sit down. I except change is slow and many of my opinions are outside the party norm. However out of all the parties the NDP fits my beliefs the best. I want to elect members who will follow those beliefs not members who will do whatever they want because they think they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 I want to elect members who will follow those beliefs not members who will do whatever they want because they think they can. And I understand that, but on issues that are most certainly controversial...issues that divide the country, members should be able to listen to their constituents...and to their conscience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 And I understand that, but on issues that are most certainly controversial...issues that divide the country, members should be able to listen to their constituents...and to their conscience. Correct... But,Layton and the current Dip braintrust,feels that things like the same sex marriage issue is a "human right"...No it's not!...It's a choice between a heterosexual man and woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 And I understand that, but on issues that are most certainly controversial...issues that divide the country, members should be able to listen to their constituents...and to their conscience. No they should listen to the constituents which Bev Desjarlais did not do when kicked out of the party. She was voted out in favor of a pro gay marriage candidate because she did not listen to her constituents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Correct... But,Layton and the current Dip braintrust,feels that things like the same sex marriage issue is a "human right"...No it's not!...It's a choice between a heterosexual man and woman. No they feel if you elect an NDP member you expect them to support gay marriage as the party has for 15 years. They were right the non gay marriage MP was replaced with pro gay marriage one. You are wrong they were right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 No they feel if you elect an NDP member you expect them to support gay marriage as the party has for 15 years. They were right the non gay marriage MP was replaced with pro gay marriage one. You are wrong they were right. No I should'nt on an issue of personal morality. The partyy is hijacked by moral relativists who don't have the intellectual capacity to understand someone elses point of view. What would the Prebyterian minister,Tommy Douglas think of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 The other problem with this whole argument is Bev was never actually kicked out of the party. She was removed from her critic roll lost the party nomination and quite the party. So this whole argument is dumb in the first place because while I think she should have been kicked out she never was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesterday Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Unless you hold fast to the moral,social,and,cultural relativism of the modern left,you're a crypto-fascist... Are you calling the Conservatives fascist? I had not thought to call them that. My mental picture paints the right/conservatives as old school socialism and the left/liberals as new school socialism. New school socialism as a product of the G group formed at the fall of the soviet union(can't remember the number off the top of my head) involving Estonia, Georgia, Canada amongst others. I had looked at German type communism as fascist, perhaps more atune with the Liberal Democratic party in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 No I should'nt on an issue of personal morality. The partyy is hijacked by moral relativists who don't have the intellectual capacity to understand someone elses point of view. What would the Prebyterian minister,Tommy Douglas think of this? I could care less what Tommy would think of it. We live in 2010 not 1935 now. Tommy did great things for his time and many of them stand true today, however I never ask myself what would Lincoln think of this we are progressive party and like to look forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Are you calling the Conservatives fascist? I had not thought to call them that. My mental picture paints the right/conservatives as old school socialism and the left/liberals as new school socialism. New school socialism as a product of the G group formed at the fall of the soviet union(can't remember the number off the top of my head) involving Estonia, Georgia, Canada amongst others. I had looked at German type communism as fascist, perhaps more atune with the Liberal Democratic party in the US. No I'm not...I'm mocking(kinda like Dancer) the silly semantic lables that get thrown around.I don't think the NDP are any more Communist than the Conservative party are Fascist.There are fringe nutters in both parties,though One thing ...Communism and Fascism are not the same at all.They are totalitarian,authoritarian political ethos',but they come at it from opposite angles.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 I could care less what Tommy would think of it. We live in 2010 not 1935 now. Tommy did great things for his time and many of them stand true today, however I never ask myself what would Lincoln think of this we are progressive party and like to look forward. And that's why I ahve a huge problem with the NDP... I love that word "progressive"...Which is a backhanded perjorative...It means that anyone that believes in those things is socially advanced,while anyone who does'nt is not as advanced,and in fact,regressive. The party is not progressive...It's,by and large,a bunch of leftist relativists who have no moral centre drssing themselves up as "progressive".., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 And that's why I ahve a huge problem with the NDP... I love that word "progressive"...Which is a backhanded perjorative...It means that anyone that believes in those things is socially advanced,while anyone who does'nt is not as advanced,and in fact,regressive. The party is not progressive...It's,by and large,a bunch of leftist relativists who have no moral centre drssing themselves up as "progressive".., Give them credit. It takes a special kind to call yourself progressive while clinging desperately to the failed ideologies of times past... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 And that's why I ahve a huge problem with the NDP... I love that word "progressive"...Which is a backhanded perjorative...It means that anyone that believes in those things is socially advanced,while anyone who does'nt is not as advanced,and in fact,regressive. The party is not progressive...It's,by and large,a bunch of leftist relativists who have no moral centre drssing themselves up as "progressive".., Not that is not progressive means. I suggest you read FDR`s speech "I am that kind of conservative because I am that kind of liberal" to get a better idea. I means we have to move and change to keep the standard of living we love. Example I would say the government putting those light houses up for sale is a progressive idea. I like it. We don't need light houses (I think we should keep a few which bring tourists in) but by in large it is a great forward thinking idea. It doesn't have to be an NDP idea to be progressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 10, 2010 Report Share Posted June 10, 2010 Give them credit. It takes a special kind to call yourself progressive while clinging desperately to the failed ideologies of times past... We are talking about the NDP not the Conservatives get with the program. Seriously though you never provide real examples and are all spin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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