nicky10013 Posted July 31, 2010 Author Report Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) Why don't you read up on Air power and its tactics I doubt you would like what it says. I wonder how a couple of carrier wings of Harriers managed to hold off the entire Argentine air-force. One that was well equipped and larger then the British force. I'm completely open to what anyone says so stop putting words in my mouth. That's the whole point behind what I've been arguing. If anyone has been leaving any option open, it's me. Including the F-35. You're the one completely stuck to government policy. As I've said, you've never strayed from a position Harper has held. So, really...you've got nothing to complain about. Edited July 31, 2010 by nicky10013 Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 Not to mention the SA-2 is still in service in many countries. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
wyly Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 ECM was in its 'infancy', as well. yup it is but computor chip technology has created super smart weapons and ECM are still limited by humans inside the plane, missiles have no such limitations... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 yup it is but computor chip technology has created super smart weapons and ECM are still limited by humans inside the plane, missiles have no such limitations... Man will never walk on the Moon. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
wyly Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 Not to mention the SA-2 is still in service in many countries. sure but poor countries buy what they can afford for the enemy they're most likely to encounter...and you don't throw away something that is old if it still works, throw enough SA-2s up and they'll keep people busy they still can't be ignored...it's the tactic of swamping the defensive systems... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 sure but poor countries buy what they can afford for the enemy they're most likely to encounter...and you don't throw away something that is old if it still works, throw enough SA-2s up and they'll keep people busy they still can't be ignored...it's the tactic of swamping the defensive systems... India, China, Poland, Iran, etc are poor countries? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
wyly Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 Man will never walk on the Moon. humans can't be re-engineered for G Force, machines can Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 India, China, Poland, Iran, etc are poor countries? what did I post and you don't throw away something that is old if it still works and then throw enough SA-2s up and they'll keep people busy they still can't be ignored...it's the tactic of swamping the defensive systems if a defender already has them they'll make use of them, they can't be ignored and have to be avoided making it easier for more advanced missiles to make the kill... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 humans can't be re-engineered for G Force, machines can There will be both in the future...manned and unmanned. As well, as Bonam has pointed out in these forums, computers are heading for a point at which they essentially become sentient which will make warfare even stranger. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 what did I post and then if a defender already has them they'll make use of them, they can't be ignored and have to be avoided making it easier for more advanced missiles to make the kill... The SA-2 isn't as obsolete and inneffective as you'd like to believe...which is why it is still in use. It's fast, cheapish and has a track record of actually downing aircraft. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 Sweet vid... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
wyly Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 There will be both in the future...manned and unmanned. As well, as Bonam has pointed out in these forums, computers are heading for a point at which they essentially become sentient which will make warfare even stranger. I don't doubt that at all...the Russia/India cruise missile is a fire and forget system...once launched it searches for targets, can track multiple targets until it sorts them as to value then it dives to the deck at super sonic speed taking last moment evasive measures before impact... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 The SA-2 isn't as obsolete and inneffective as you'd like to believe...which is why it is still in use. It's fast, cheapish and has a track record of actually downing aircraft. I thought you were alluding to it being obsolete useless, a miscommunication...my point was even if a weapon is beyond it's best days it can still be effective it can't be ignored and when used together with more modern equipment is still deadly and useful...and every airforce even the USA's has older weapons vulnerable to older counter measures... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 I don't doubt that at all...the Russia/India cruise missile is a fire and forget system...once launched it searches for targets, can track multiple targets until it sorts them as to value then it dives to the deck at super sonic speed taking last moment evasive measures before impact... The Russians are not the only ones to have supersonic missiles with fire and forget capability. To boot, surface launched missiles get hit in their soft underbelly, the launcher itself. It has to survive to fire that second volley. Which is indeed why most systems are now tractor mounted...but that won't stop a determined A-10 pilot from destroying it, as it was found. Once located it's pretty much lights-out. The Brahmos is no different in this regard. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
wyly Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 Sweet vid... intimidating for pilots no doubt seeing them being able to turn on a dime, you can only avoid that for short while.... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 The Russians are not the only ones to have supersonic missiles with fire and forget capability. I don't know of an american version you'll have to link to it...To boot, surface launched missiles get hit in their soft underbelly, the launcher itself. It has to survive to fire that second volley. Which is indeed why most systems are now tractor mounted...but that won't stop a determined A-10 pilot from destroying it, as it was found. Once located it's pretty much lights-out.yes but the americans never succeeded in stopping Iraq's scud lauches despite air superiority, mobile lauchers are easy to move and hide....The Brahmos is no different in this regard.the Brahmos can be lauched from ships, aircraft, mobile or hidden in fixed positions it can be launched by visual contact only so no need to turn on ground radar...and it will also have it's own layered SAM system protecting it...it's an interesting cat'n'mouse technology... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 I thought you were alluding to it being obsolete useless, a miscommunication...my point was even if a weapon is beyond it's best days it can still be effective it can't be ignored and when used together with more modern equipment is still deadly and useful...and every airforce even the USA's has older weapons vulnerable to older counter measures... It's actually still in production under licence in many countries. It's not like the missile is out of date. It's guidance has been upgraded many times. If you have time, the audio recordings I posted (B-52 over Hanoi) have SA-2 attacks which are quite interesting. But BC-2004 is right...SAMs aren't 100% effective...nothing is...many many B-52s found their targets during Linebacker II (for example) SAMs and MiGs aside. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 I don't know of an american version you'll have to link to it... Here's one of many...fire and forget everything. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 An oldie but goldie... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 I don't know of an american version you'll have to link to it... yes but the americans never succeeded in stopping Iraq's scud lauches despite air superiority, mobile lauchers are easy to move and hide.... During Gulf War I, roger. In order to avoid undue civilian casualties, mainly. The SCUD launchers would shoot n' scoot amoung regular civilian traffic or civilian structures. In a total-type of war or using today's type of targeting capabilities, I doubt anything would have survived. the Brahmos can be lauched from ships, aircraft, mobile or hidden in fixed positions it can be launched by visual contact only so no need to turn on ground radar...and it will also have it's own layered SAM system protecting it... it's an interesting cat'n'mouse technology... Meh...it's been done. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 intimidating for pilots no doubt seeing them being able to turn on a dime, you can only avoid that for short while.... That's all you have to do for effective defense suppression. Light 'em up and shut 'em down with smart missiles like AGM-88E Advanced Anti Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM). The Americans still use pilots and balls for "wild weasel" tactics augmented by much more sophisticated ECM suites per DoP's description. Add AWACS, GPS guidance, TLAM, and stealth to nicely round things out and ...bada bing...bada boom...you have Total Spectrum Dominance. Canada will never face such an environment on its own...that's the point of collective defense....so pony up. All of this talk about what India or China or Russia could do is dwarfed by what the USA and allies have actually done...just count the air combat kills, strike missions, and subsequent unchallenged air superiority. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
wyly Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 Here's one of many...fire and forget everything. that's not the same, 1st it's an ICBM, and the targets are already programed...2nd the Russian cruise can find and sort it's own targets if need be... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Smallc Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 It appears that the US has quite a few fire and forget missiles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-and-forget Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 that's not the same, 1st it's an ICBM, and the targets are already programed...2nd the Russian cruise can find and sort it's own targets if need be... ...and you believe the Americans can't? Amazing. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2010 Report Posted July 31, 2010 (edited) 1st it's an ICBM Is it?? Wow... Edited July 31, 2010 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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