Topaz Posted June 5, 2010 Report Posted June 5, 2010 Brid-Gen Daniel Menard and his partner may well lose their military careers because of "inappropriate relationship" while in Afghanistan. I understand there rules within the military, but, military personnel are human beings and as the doctor said who has treated soldiers, they do need a way to express their stress. I heard a WW2, Nam and Afghanistan vets, say no matter what war you fought in, there a horror fear that lays within you, as for the Afghanistan war vet, he mentioned by when going out on patrol each step could be your last or if you do survive, how much are you going to lose of your body. Its a constant fear when on patrol. In the past , we have heard of the military give medications for stress and I think in some soldiers that could be a death sentence, especially those out walking at night. So, should miltary personnel lose their careers for this? http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100605/national/military_fraternization Quote
msdogfood Posted June 5, 2010 Report Posted June 5, 2010 Brid-Gen Daniel Menard and his partner may well lose their military careers because of "inappropriate relationship" while in Afghanistan. I understand there rules within the military, but, military personnel are human beings and as the doctor said who has treated soldiers, they do need a way to express their stress. I heard a WW2, Nam and Afghanistan vets, say no matter what war you fought in, there a horror fear that lays within you, as for the Afghanistan war vet, he mentioned by when going out on patrol each step could be your last or if you do survive, how much are you going to lose of your body. Its a constant fear when on patrol. In the past , we have heard of the military give medications for stress and I think in some soldiers that could be a death sentence, especially those out walking at night. So, should miltary personnel lose their careers for this? http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100605/national/military_fraternization This all happened because thay ware in a combat zone!!!. Quote
wyly Posted June 6, 2010 Report Posted June 6, 2010 (edited) This all happened because thay ware in a combat zone!!!. personally I think the sex rules are silly what adults do is their business, but they knowingly broke the rules so what can you do... Edited June 8, 2010 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Bonam Posted June 6, 2010 Report Posted June 6, 2010 personally I think the sex rules are silly what adults do is their business, but they knowingly broke the rules so can you do... A rare occasion of me agreeing with wyly. The rules are definitely outdated and need to be changed. But for now, they are rules, and as such need to be followed. Part of being in the military is about maintaining discipline, and a top officer needs to set an example in this regard. If the top brass can't follow the rules that they enforce throughout the entire military then they are hypocritical and lacking in discipline. If this happened to a grunt at the bottom of the hierarchy this same general wouldn't have a second thought signing the paperwork dismissing them for a breach of discipline. Quote
Moonbox Posted June 6, 2010 Report Posted June 6, 2010 Sexual relationships amongst soldiers are fine I think. Sexual relationships with underlings are not. I didn't read the whole story but a brigadier general fooling around with subordinates is inappropriate in the same sense that a professor sleeping with one of his students is inappropriate. In the military, however, this is faaaaaaaaar more serious because there are life and death implications involved. A commanding officer may make emotionally based combat decisions in order to keep his lover safe which can have very realistic implications not only on the success of the mission itself, but on the morale of the troops as a whole. How would you feel as soldier if you were constantly being put in harms way while a similarly ranked peer was being given the easy assignments on a regular basis because of a relationship with a superior? Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
William Ashley Posted June 6, 2010 Report Posted June 6, 2010 Brid-Gen Daniel Menard and his partner may well lose their military careers because of "inappropriate relationship" while in Afghanistan. I understand there rules within the military, but, military personnel are human beings and as the doctor said who has treated soldiers, they do need a way to express their stress. I heard a WW2, Nam and Afghanistan vets, say no matter what war you fought in, there a horror fear that lays within you, as for the Afghanistan war vet, he mentioned by when going out on patrol each step could be your last or if you do survive, how much are you going to lose of your body. Its a constant fear when on patrol. In the past , we have heard of the military give medications for stress and I think in some soldiers that could be a death sentence, especially those out walking at night. So, should miltary personnel lose their careers for this? http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100605/national/military_fraternization While this is a standard in professional society in Canada, I personally find it stupid. The sexual harasment suit issue is problematic though for the federal government. Personally though I don't see why two people in the same organization can't be "involved" so long as it doesn't interfere in performance of duties. Menard as in command of the other officer provides a problem for 'non interferance in performance of duties' if there is curryed favour. Personally though I think perhaps valueing those in your command chain such as family members, loved ones, or friends would hopefully only enhance your dedication and care taken in performance of duties and those who you are responsible for. Its not like sending people to the line in WWI for reasons of attrition. It happened, rather unfortunate, there are plenty of private security firms and mercenery outfits. There could be logical reasons for the ban that relate to level of mojo but beyond that I don't see it. Quote I was here.
fellowtraveller Posted June 6, 2010 Report Posted June 6, 2010 The rules are definitely outdated and need to be changed No, they are there for a purpose and that has not changed. The military doesn't work like the Bureau of Pencils in Ottawa. Personal relationships are OK, sexual relations between ranks or even within ranks is a recipe for disaster. The military has a chain of command that is proven effective, there is no way that boinking subordinates can be of benefit to their mission. Quote The government should do something.
Army Guy Posted June 7, 2010 Report Posted June 7, 2010 A rare occasion of me agreeing with wyly. The rules are definitely outdated and need to be changed. The rules have been in place as long as our military has been co ed, Military romances are a common thing dispite the rules and regulations, both parties are well aware of the consquences and risk everything for sex, and partnership.. As for them being outdated or silly they actually do serve alot our purposes, other than the obvious ones...currently there are thousands of military personal in Khandar, from dozens of nations from around the globe each with very similar rules, and regulations...Most of these soldiers are there in country for atleast 6 mths or more...most already have established relations back home, the last thing you want is to be constantly reminded of those relations put on hold while you serve your country, couples kissing, holding hands, or making love in the next tent...makes you miss your love ones all that much more , it distracts the soldier, and in a combat zone a distracted soldier is a danger... The Military goes to great length to ensure couples, family members are not posted to the same unit or under the same chain of command. Someone here said it would "hopefully only enhance your dedication and care taken in performance of duties and those who you are responsible for" it has been proven over hundrds of wars and engagements that it does not enhance but once again distracts or allows them to show favor to those involved....and would be an excellent way to sow distrust among'st your command...which is critical when commanding troops to have there complete trust .....these are the people you have to give orders to in which may cost them their lives....could you order your wife, son, daugter to thier deaths....and while this is not WWI and trench warfare, every time a soldier leaves the wire there is a good chance of having contact with the bad guys...lossing a soldier under your command is davasting lossing one of your relations would over whelm any commander....and lets not forget, most of these commanders have enough firepower at thier disposal to level small countries....more than enough to get revenge, and give our nation a huge inter national incident....And this guy had an entire Canadian contingent plus an American atts and dets... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Argus Posted June 7, 2010 Report Posted June 7, 2010 Sexual relationships amongst soldiers are fine I think. Back in Ottawa, sure, but as one young woman working in Kandahar said, there are thousands of young, testosterone charged men on that base, and a few score young women. She said that walking around there, no matter how you're dressed, is like walking through a pack of starving wolves with steaks in your pockets. I would imagine life would be pretty unbearable for them if all those young men didn't know that sexual relationships were absolutely forbidden upon pain of court martial. As well, close relationships between men and women are a deterrence to duty in combat situations because both parties will always be more concerned with the welfare of each other than with their jobs. Are you going to stay and man the barricades in one section, when you know your girlfriend's unit is being overrun, or are you going to runt o help her - without orders? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Moonbox Posted June 7, 2010 Report Posted June 7, 2010 As well, close relationships between men and women are a deterrence to duty in combat situations because both parties will always be more concerned with the welfare of each other than with their jobs. Are you going to stay and man the barricades in one section, when you know your girlfriend's unit is being overrun, or are you going to runt o help her - without orders? You're right but a relationship doesn't need to be sexual for that kind of bond to be built. A very close friend could instill the same sort of loyalty and somehow the military withstands that. Even so, I largely agree with you. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
fellowtraveller Posted June 7, 2010 Report Posted June 7, 2010 The rules have been in place as long as our military has been co ed, Sexual relationships within the military have been banned long, long before the forces became co-ed...... Buggery was a hanging offence in the Royal Navy for hundreds of years. Quote The government should do something.
Army Guy Posted June 8, 2010 Report Posted June 8, 2010 Sexual relationships within the military have been banned long, long before the forces became co-ed...... Buggery was a hanging offence in the Royal Navy for hundreds of years Leave it to the navy, even today homo sexual behavior is frown upon, although there is new regualtions to make us a kinder,more gentler military it is not fully excepted and relationships between same sex partners is not excepted..but this is not just a military problem but on the effects the entire country... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
wyly Posted June 8, 2010 Report Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) double post Edited June 8, 2010 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted June 8, 2010 Report Posted June 8, 2010 Sexual relationships amongst soldiers are fine I think. Sexual relationships with underlings are not. I didn't read the whole story but a brigadier general fooling around with subordinates is inappropriate in the same sense that a professor sleeping with one of his students is inappropriate. I don't think there is one university where this is a firing offense, these are adults it happens all the time... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Army Guy Posted June 8, 2010 Report Posted June 8, 2010 I don't think there is one university where this is a firing offense, these are adults it happens all the time... When was the last time a prof had to order one of his students to do something that might get them killed. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Molly Posted June 8, 2010 Report Posted June 8, 2010 "A for a lay" not a firing offense? I find that hard to believe. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
M.Dancer Posted June 8, 2010 Report Posted June 8, 2010 personally I think the sex rules are silly what adults do is their business, but they knowingly broke the rules so what can you do... Woul;d you send your lover into harms way...put her on point when an ambush is possible? Or would you hestitate...or would you be even more strident just to show no one is favoured? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
ToadBrother Posted June 8, 2010 Report Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) When was the last time a prof had to order one of his students to do something that might get them killed. Indeed. Military rules on conjugal relations, particularly between people of different ranks, are not just arbitrary or cruel. They have a very real purpose in maintaining the command structure and discipline. It cuts many ways. Not only would it be outrageously cruel to have a superior telling an inferior who he or she is having a relationship with to go into battle, it also would raise serious questions of favoritism and could very seriously undermine morale. If you become an officer, you know damned well what the rules are, why the rules are the way they are, and if you still choose to flaunt those rules, then odds are you're going to see your career come to an end in this sort of humiliation. Edited June 8, 2010 by ToadBrother Quote
Topaz Posted June 8, 2010 Author Report Posted June 8, 2010 Indeed. Military rules on conjugal relations, particularly between people of different ranks, are not just arbitrary or cruel. They have a very real purpose in maintaining the command structure and discipline. It cuts many ways. Not only would it be outrageously cruel to have a superior telling an inferior who he or she is having a relationship with to go into battle, it also would raise serious questions of favoritism and could very seriously undermine morale. If you become an officer, you know damned well what the rules are, why the rules are the way they are, and if you still choose to flaunt those rules, then odds are you're going to see your career come to an end in this sort of humiliation. It also got HIM out of the HELL hole he was in and her too. I`m sure there are many who want to leave. Quote
ToadBrother Posted June 8, 2010 Report Posted June 8, 2010 It also got HIM out of the HELL hole he was in and her too. I`m sure there are many who want to leave. I'm not going to pretend to understand the couple's justifications. I do understand the Armed Forces' justifications, and they are sound. Quote
Guest TrueMetis Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 It also got HIM out of the HELL hole he was in and her too. I`m sure there are many who want to leave. Then they shouldn't have asked to go. Quote
Army Guy Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 It also got HIM out of the HELL hole he was in and her too. I`m sure there are many who want to leave. This is a crook of shit....For an officer of his caliber and rank it is a great honor to be placed in charge of an entire Battle group in a war zone....it is the whole piont of the Job... Every soldier including himself has to stick up his arm and volunteer to go....Conditions in Afghan are known to everyone, as almost everyone has multi tours over there it's not like conditions are kept a secret...In fact during training and prior to departure current conditions are briefed to everyone, thats weather, combat conditions, enemy states, battles ongoing, current operations.... and at anytime all anyone has to say is I DON'T want to go...and his repalcement is cut new orders to pack thier bags... Every soldier in threater also has the same option...want to leave make the chain of command aware and poof your gone....Nobody is sticking a gun to your head and making you stay....Canadian soldiers are in this hell hole because our country has asked us..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Yesterday Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 This is a crook of shit....For an officer of his caliber and rank it is a great honor to be placed in charge of an entire Battle group in a war zone....it is the whole piont of the Job... Every soldier including himself has to stick up his arm and volunteer to go....Conditions in Afghan are known to everyone, as almost everyone has multi tours over there it's not like conditions are kept a secret...In fact during training and prior to departure current conditions are briefed to everyone, thats weather, combat conditions, enemy states, battles ongoing, current operations.... and at anytime all anyone has to say is I DON'T want to go...and his repalcement is cut new orders to pack thier bags... Every soldier in threater also has the same option...want to leave make the chain of command aware and poof your gone....Nobody is sticking a gun to your head and making you stay....Canadian soldiers are in this hell hole because our country has asked us..... Hi, I wasn't aware of the option. This makes me respect even more the men and women who opt to go but at the same time makes me respect no less those who don't. I also can agree with the reasoning behind the no sex rules. Quote
Muddy Posted June 12, 2010 Report Posted June 12, 2010 As an old soldier I still don`t believe in women being in combat. The General must show by example rules that he expects others to obey. Or he is no leader. Mean while he should have been fired for acidently discharging his fire arm on a previous occasion. A lowly soldier would have been crucified for such carelessness. Quote
Army Guy Posted June 14, 2010 Report Posted June 14, 2010 As an old soldier I still don`t believe in women being in combat. The General must show by example rules that he expects others to obey. Or he is no leader.Mean while he should have been fired for acidently discharging his fire arm on a previous occasion. A lowly soldier would have been crucified for such carelessness. At one time Muddy i thought just like you, but todays women have earned thier right to be on the battle field....and like the men they have thier bags of hammers as well, but overall they are very capable soldiers.... He was charged and found guilty of haveing an (ND) negelgent discharge and fined 3500.00 more than the average soldier....But he was the Contingent Commander and should be held to the highest standard....which is why he's lost his command in regards to the other charges...and awaiting to find out what is left of his carear... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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