Combined parties

[margrace]

According to the Globe and Mail this morning the young liberals are in favour of joining the Liberals and NDP in some combination.

[Dave_ON]

I am not, what I am in favour of is completely renewing the party. Turf the old guard and lets bring in new blood, new ideas and solid platforms. Honestly if there was a Liberal leader that could come up with a solid, galvenizing policy he'd be able to claim a majority over the CPC any day. The problem is, currently they're not offering an alternative to the status quo.

Also a name change is in order, it worked for the Alliance party after all.

[Michael Hardner]

I am not, what I am in favour of is completely renewing the party. Turf the old guard and lets bring in new blood, new ideas and solid platforms. Honestly if there was a Liberal leader that could come up with a solid, galvenizing policy he'd be able to claim a majority over the CPC any day. The problem is, currently they're not offering an alternative to the status quo.

Also a name change is in order, it worked for the Alliance party after all.

We need a good management party, that manages government services as if there are other options.

[Molly]

A liberal/NDP team-up would be an abandonment of the centre.

The Liberal party needs to re-assert the centre. When they get around to doing that, they'll be government and in majority again.

[Moonbox]

We need a good management party, that manages government services as if there are other options.

yeah really haha

[Jack Weber]

First of all,I think it would be fair to say that the youth wing of the Liberal party probably leans to the left.I don't mean the kooky left,just to the left.I think it would also be fair to say that many of the SANE NDP platform issues would appeal to this type of person.

The problem with the federal Liberal party is that for over 25 years,it has not had to come up with anything new and provocative that would appeal to anyone in particular.All they had to do for more than 15 years was say,

"We're not those guys over there...We don't act like those people!"

And frankly,that was good enough for most people,because those "guys over there" had nutjob hilljacks like Myron Thompson(wearing a freaking Stetson,no less),and Darryl Stinson!Plus the vote on the right was split,so the Liberals almost won be default.Not only was this unhealthy for this country,but it turns out,was disastrous for the longterm prospects of the Liberal party itself.They seem like this group that's wandering in the desert somewhere,with no idea which direction to go.They don't seem to be able to come up with any substantive policy initiatives,I think mainly because they don't know how to anymore...The people who used to do that stuff really well are long gone.And all that's left for them is to try to catch the current government on "unethical behaviour" things.That's not to say the government is'nt acting unethical at times,or is abusing it's power,but that's not a substantive policy initiative.

I'm no fan of Layton,but if a sizeable amount of Liberals thought the NDP was a good option,and went that direction,it might have a moderating effect on the NDP and squeeze out the wacko fringe in that party.It might make them a more palatable choice for those who lean slightly to the left?

Edited June 2, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Keepitsimple]

A liberal/NDP team-up would be an abandonment of the centre.

The Liberal party needs to re-assert the centre. When they get around to doing that, they'll be government and in majority again.

That's somewhat true because the Liberals are the only party that can drag a bit of the Left with them. I say "somewhat" because in the past 10 years, the "center" has shifted a bit to the Right.....and that's what makes things tricky. People use the term "progressive" to define the Left - including the Liberals. "Progressive" means very little nowadays because we've "progressed" a long way over the years and with the world's economy in a precarious state, we're in a time of consolidation and stability - not grand plans. That's one reason the ground has shifted to the Right - slow, steady and predicatable - pragmatic if you like. A second reason is that so many "new" Canadians are Conservative by nature. A third reason is that the Conservatives have been inching closer to dead centre on the political spectrum and pecking away at those Liberals......so "re-asserting the centre" is a tough row to hoe without arriving at a Conservative-lite destination. Such a ploy would alienate left-libs and probably not gain much from the Right. The winners would be the NDP. I don't envy the task of the Liberals....they've given up too much ground with their Dion-Ignatieff rudderless ship. It'll be a long road back.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[Michael Hardner]

Good points, Jack.

I think the Liberals would do well to finish the job on the last good idea they did have - the Red Book. It turned out to be a Big Lie but maybe they could try to do it for real this time.

I don't know how many good ideas there are to be had these days - we had 'big government' and 'smaller government' so maybe the next wave can be about making the most of what we have.

The NDP has gone far to the right of the days when they called for the nationalization of industries (anyone remember CN Hotels ?). For some reason, they are more threatened by the Greens than by the centre so rather than sell themselves as the centrists they have become, they still act like they are far left.

[scribblet]

Maybe there was a reason for Bob Rae and Dosanji leaving the NDP for the Liberals LOL Ignatieff could be stabbed in the back soon by his best friend.

All that aside, if they merged they would lose a lot of votes, the NDP is too kooky for most people and has a very radical socialist wing, where would they go and who lead the new party ?

The Liberals need a new leader, and they do need a platform. Harper is governing more to the centre so they don't have anywhere to go.

http://204.225.123.146/Manifesto/Manifesto.html

[Keepitsimple]

Maybe there was a reason for Bob Rae and Dosanji leaving the NDP for the Liberals LOL Ignatieff could be stabbed in the back soon by his best friend.

All that aside, if they merged they would lose a lot of votes, the NDP is too kooky for most people and has a very radical socialist wing, where would they go and who lead the new party ?

The Liberals need a new leader, and they do need a platform. Harper is governing more to the centre so they don't have anywhere to go.

http://204.225.123.146/Manifesto/Manifesto.html

Wow.....too kooky is right (left actually)......are there any sitting MP's who are part of this Socialist Caucus?......or is it a fringe group of NDP non-MP members? I would think the latter - but why Layton would allow something like this to be available to the public is beyond me. Talk about scary!

[Jack Weber]

Maybe there was a reason for Bob Rae and Dosanji leaving the NDP for the Liberals LOL Ignatieff could be stabbed in the back soon by his best friend.

All that aside, if they merged they would lose a lot of votes, the NDP is too kooky for most people and has a very radical socialist wing, where would they go and who lead the new party ?

The Liberals need a new leader, and they do need a platform. Harper is governing more to the centre so they don't have anywhere to go.

http://204.225.123.146/Manifesto/Manifesto.html

These would be the people you would be able to read at Bedwetter Central(Rabble.ca) who are totally disgusted that the NDP does'nt represent them any more.All they do is complain that NDP is'nt socialist enough.Frankly,a merger with the Liberals in some fashion would probably jettison these twits once and for all...Perhaps they'll start their own party(remember the NPI initiative?)...Maybe they join the Communist Party of Canada?

These are fringe nutters...Kinda like the fringe nutter WRAP folks that are still in the Conservative Party that complain Harper is'nt conservative enough and has lost his "Albertan Fire Wall way."...

[Argus]

I'm no fan of Layton,but if a sizeable amount of Liberals thought the NDP was a good option,and went that direction,it might have a moderating effect on the NDP and squeeze out the wacko fringe in that party.It might make them a more palatable choice for those who lean slightly to the left?

If a sizeable amount of Liberals though the NDP was a good option - they'd have taken it.

Some of the NDP policies, as you say, appeals to the lefty libs. But not the mass of centrist Libs ,and certainly not the rightist Libs.

[Argus]

The Liberals need a new leader, and they do need a platform. Harper is governing more to the centre so they don't have anywhere to go.

The next Liberal leader, by tradition, will be French. They will pick up a ton of votes from Quebec, and a lot of seats, once Quebecers are able to vote for a Francophone again.

The fact is, the Liberal party cannot win with an Anglo leader. Whenever they have to rotate to an Anglo leader, the party loses too many Quebec seats.

Trudeau. French, Huge majorities

Turner. English, Big fail

Chretien. French. Huge majorities

Martin. English. Big fail

Dion. French - should have won big but he was such a feeble and ineffectual man and his dumb green plan so bad he lost

Ignateiff. English. Big fail

[Jack Weber]

The next Liberal leader, by tradition, will be French. They will pick up a ton of votes from Quebec, and a lot of seats, once Quebecers are able to vote for a Francophone again.

The fact is, the Liberal party cannot win with an Anglo leader. Whenever they have to rotate to an Anglo leader, the party loses too many Quebec seats.

Trudeau. French, Huge majorities

Turner. English, Big fail

Chretien. French. Huge majorities

Martin. English. Big fail

Dion. French - should have won big but he was such a feeble and ineffectual man and his dumb green plan so bad he lost

Ignateiff. English. Big fail

Who's next?

Coderre?

Le Blanc?

Trudeau?

[Argus]

Who's next?

Coderre?

Le Blanc?

Trudeau?

Coderre is too slimy. Trudeau is too young and utterly inexperienced at EVERYTHING.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Argus

[Smallc]

Martin. English. Big fail

Martin wasn't killed because he was English, he was killed because it of bad timing.

[Jack Weber]

Coderre is too slimy. Trudeau is too young and utterly inexperienced at EVERYTHING.

I agree,but I'll bet it'll be one of those two.Le Blanc would be a better choice.I'm leaning towards Trudeau because the Liberal party seems to prefer style over substance.That type of choice would fall in line with the classic problem they've had,in that,they simply have no idea's to articulate so they'll fall back to glombing off a name from the past.

[Bonam]

The liberals can't have the center because the conservatives have already firmly claimed most of the center. Almost all of the Harper's policies have been firmly centrist, whether we look at bailouts and dealing with the recession, or foreign policy, or the environment, etc. The liberals are to the left of center now, they have to be, or their policies would be no different from the conservatives, and the NDP are the far left fringe.

There are only three ways for the liberals to recover:

• one is to essentially marginalize the NDP so that they can claim the entire left for themselves. However they need to do this without actually moving any farther left themselves in the process (or else they risk losing more voters to the conservatives). This could only be done if they had a leader who was very charismatic and could overshadow Layton even with far left voters without actually having their policies be as far to the left as the NDP. In other words, not gonna happen.
  
• the second is to somehow swing Canada back to the left so that they can claim the newly shifted center. They are certainly working towards this goal, with the support of most of Canada's mainstream media, but they are for the most part not getting very far with this.
  
• the third is to hope that the Conservatives do something to embarrass themselves sufficiently for voters to switch their vote to the Liberals. This seems to be their main strategy.
  

Edited June 3, 2010 by Bonam

[bjre]

According to the Globe and Mail this morning the young liberals are in favour of joining the Liberals and NDP in some combination.

Too many Canadian politicians are with nothing but selfish. They don't have a belief of how to make the country better and how to make the people happier. All they care about is themselves. The system is designed for large parties, small party leader have no hope to become the prime minister. So what they have done is always give up their "belief" and combine, coalition. Maybe they just don't have any "belief" or "value" other than taking the positions in government so that they can help themselves and some groups to take more tax which is the only thing they really care about.

[madmax]

[*]the third is to hope that the Conservatives do something to embarrass themselves sufficiently for voters to switch their vote to the Liberals. This seems to be their main strategy.

I agree with this and the part about the CPC moving to the Centre.

CPC fiscal policies remain far right fiscal incompetent starve the beast model of high deficits and lower taxes on those who can pay and a tax shift onto the middle class.

But there is a move to the Centre in appeasing many Liberal pet projects.

Also to keep the base happy, bones are tossed out to rally the troops and keep the public focused on 3rd rail and hot button issues while the level of transparency and accountability is reduced.

To the general public, the CPC is striking a cord.

The Billion dollars spent on security for the G20 is money all the masses can understand.

While this may rile you..it should as the Conservatives are doing their best imitation of Liberals. Even the backroom deals, money bagman, Senate appointments and such are right out of the LPC playbook of governing. And Like the LPC the CPC is getting away with it.

So, with CPC behaving like LPC, the LPC has only one trick poney left and that is to hope the CPC mess up in the minds of the public. That is a longshot. People will not like this government but the public does accept it.

The public if having to choose tweedle dee from tweedle dum are going to settle Dee or Dum, they are going to take Dee. Ignatieff is not doing anything to inspire or lead. His goose is cooked.

Thus, the CPC are enjoying what the LPC want to enjoy. Perks and Priviledge.

The CPC have embarrassed themselves on many occassions, but the public is used to governments embarrassing themselves. Being poor fiscal managers and turning on a dime when in trouble. That is this government and that C rating is still a passing grade.

No Liberal spinning to get the media talking about a merger in order to get them in the news as they aer currently lost in the forest, is going to change the fact that if... given the chance to govern... we would have the same government that we have today.

ITs not good, but its not bad enough the LPC have said, we are not in support of the government.

The LPC realize the rank and file are not happy, perhaps the LPC ranks are considering voting NDP or CPC and thus they are panicking as their poll numbers continue to hover in the mid/low twenties and there is more signs of economic recovery then Liberal recovery.

The LPC and Ignatieff missed their ship then go to the train that left the station. The LPCs current next one requires another next one.

The LPC internal leadership coup has been a total failure. The NDP is in no mood to join the circus when their leader is riding higher in the polls, their polling data is on the high end of their traditional rating and quite Frankly, the moment a merger is created another party will be formed.

Then What?

The LPC have to stop talking nonsense and trying to dream and scheme their way out of the cellar.

I sincerely think the LPC is totally screwed and they have been blessed that the CPC have not proven themselves to be good at governing or the CPC would be in Majority turf.

Now, if I had a Billion Dollars.... if I had a Billion dollars.... I'd buy me house, kraft dinner... wow have times changed

[Keepitsimple]

It's not that complicated. Whether it's Liberals imitating Conservatives or Conservatives imitating Liberals - if you want to effectively govern Canada, you have to be at the center of the political spectrum where you can please some of the people most of the time (the center) and most of the people some of the time (the Left and Right edges). As I've stated before, the natural center of the Canadian political spectrum has shifted rightward a bit. The ballyhooed term "progressive" just doesn't resonate any more - Canada has progressed a long way in so many respects....It's not the time for grand plans - it's time for pragmatic governance. With today's economic uncertainty, we're in a period of retrenchment and stabilization. That's the strength of Harper's leadership - to albeit grudgingly - move towards the center while not completely abandoning strongly held Conservative principles. You know he's doing something right when the Left consider him too far Right and the Right consider him taking the party too far to the Left. It's interesting to see the term flip-flop and the Conservatives acting like Liberals when in fact, all that is happening is the inevitable move to the Centre. That's how you run a country. That's how you gain the confidence of the electorate. That's how you stay in power.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[Bryan]

Some on the left see a merger as a means to do the same thing that the Reform Party did, but they forget a few things.

1) the right did not unite all at once. There were enough holdouts to keep the parties still split for several more years.

2) Reform and PCs had actually been one party only a few years previous, so they already had a working history, just some disagreements to work out.

3) No configuration of conservative parties were ever as far right as the Liberals or the media made them out to be. PCs were centre left, there was almost nothing conservative about them. Reform and Alliance were centre-right. More conservative than Canadians were used to, but still very much to the left of the Democrats in the US.

What the unite the left people are proposing is merging a full-left party with a centrist party--with whom they've never been one united group. This will alienate far left people in the NDP, as well as centre-right people in the Liberals (and there are more of those than many people realize). A very real probability of such a merger is an INCREASE in CPC support, and a new left-wing party that is SMALLER than the sum of its intended parts.

[madmax]

It's not that complicated. Whether it's Liberals imitating Conservatives or Conservatives imitating Liberals -

Snip

inevitable move to the Centre. That's how you run a country. That's how you gain the confidence of the electorate. That's how you stay in power.

Nice post Edited June 4, 2010 by madmax

[madmax]

Some on the left see a merger as a means to do the same thing that the Reform Party did, but they forget a few things.

1) the right did not unite all at once. There were enough holdouts to keep the parties still split for several more years...........Snip

..............A very real probability of such a merger is an INCREASE in CPC support, and a new left-wing party that is SMALLER than the sum of its intended parts.

I agree with your entire post...

[Wild Bill]

What the unite the left people are proposing is merging a full-left party with a centrist party--with whom they've never been one united group. This will alienate far left people in the NDP, as well as centre-right people in the Liberals (and there are more of those than many people realize). A very real probability of such a merger is an INCREASE in CPC support, and a new left-wing party that is SMALLER than the sum of its intended parts.

Makes sense, Bryan! When I hear the supporters of a left merger talk I can't help but think that what they really are proposing is a way to get the Left in power by using the Liberals to look like they are a centrist party!

Now who's talking up a hidden agenda?