Are Israel's "Friends" Trying To Destroy It?

[naomiglover]

An honest review of the realities of US politics and the US/Israeli relationship.

How was President Obama going to justify his love-in with Netanyahu? Nothing had changed since the prime minister kicked Biden in the teeth with his announcement of new settler homes in Jerusalem. There are no serious negotiations, no indications Israel ever intends to begin ending the occupation, and the monstrous blockade on Gaza is as brutal as ever.

So what would the President say to announce the new improved "special relationship?"

The answer is that it wouldn't have mattered. The goal was simply to get the friction behind us and let the good times roll.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/are-israels-friends-tryin_b_595896.html#comments

[Shady]

The blockage isn't an issue. Every single day, supplies come flowing into Gaza. The issue is running a blockade as a way of avoiding proper inspections. If proper inspections don't take place, Hamas is re-armed, and violence and war is the inevitable result.

[bush_cheney2004]

...So what would the President say to announce the new improved "special relationship?"

The answer is that it wouldn't have mattered. The goal was simply to get the friction behind us and let the good times roll.

Correct....it doesn't matter....because the US-Israel "relationship" transcends any single president or administration. Any change to the fundamental arrangements are made at great political peril.

[WIP]

An honest review of the realities of US politics and the US/Israeli relationship.

How was President Obama going to justify his love-in with Netanyahu? Nothing had changed since the prime minister kicked Biden in the teeth with his announcement of new settler homes in Jerusalem. There are no serious negotiations, no indications Israel ever intends to begin ending the occupation, and the monstrous blockade on Gaza is as brutal as ever.

So what would the President say to announce the new improved "special relationship?"

The answer is that it wouldn't have mattered. The goal was simply to get the friction behind us and let the good times roll.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/are-israels-friends-tryin_b_595896.html#comments

"...justify his love-in with Netanyahu?" Is this guy for real? Obama would love to toss Bibi over the side, the problem is having even more problems with the Religious Right, in the form of outraged Christian Zionists who support the most extreme political movements in Israel, and have been providing most of the U.S. dollars for building new settlements in the West Bank. These are the "friends" that Rosenberg needed to focus on, because it's not AIPAC or rich Jewish businessmen that have the most influence in guiding U.S. policy towards Israel -- it's Pat Robertson, John Hagee and the throngs of believers in end times prophecy who are anxiously awaiting the outbreak of WWIII so that the Rapture, Armageddon and the 2nd Coming prophecies can be fulfilled! These people who are preaching that one third of Israelis will soon be incinerated, and the rest convert to Christianity when Jesus comes back, are the "friends" that even the most zealous hardline Israelis should be nervous about having around.

[scribblet]

The only people trying destroy Israel are the surrounding Arab countries ( et al)

http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/prepare-for-media-onslaught-as-freedom-flotilla-approaches-gaza/

Prepare for another media bonanza over Gaza. This time it’s the turn of the Freedom Flotilla — a nine ship strong convoy heading to Gaza with hundreds of passengers (there are 600 on just one ship from Turkey which left Istanbul yesterday) and more than 10,000 tonnes of supplies. It is due to arrive on Thursday but is almost certain to be turned away by the Israeli navy.

So get ready for a veritable firework display of grievance mongering, as “victims” from dozens of countries howl about their “oppression” at the hands of the dastardly Israelis. And by “get ready” I mean prepare to point out that giving succour to Gaza means giving succour to its rulers, Hamas — a terror group which openly parades its Protocols of Zion style anti-Semitism and is devoted to the destruction of Israel. Morally speaking, the attempt to break into Gaza is the equivalent of attempting to bust the sanctions imposed on Apartheid South Africa. Now there’s an apartheid analogy about the Middle East that Israel’s opponents will not be using this week.

And in addition to reminding the world of just how deplorable the actions of these people really are, it would also be worthwhile to follow the example of Abraham Cooper (writing in Ynet today) who has enumerated some inconvenient truths about Israel and Gaza thus:

“For starters,” he argues with reference to what the western media should be doing, “it can tell an indifferent world what actually entered Gaza legally from Israel just this last week of the “siege”: 637 truckloads, consisting of 14,069 tons of humanitarian aid.

[BCMan]

Geopolitically, in the next few years, Afghanistan is going to take over Israel as one of its strongest allies and strongholds. As soon as the Afghan government has the control over most of the regions, it would be possible to implement this strategy. Right now, most of the military infrastructure in Afghanistan is built and controlled by the US and they are not leaving soon.

They can easily manage Pakistan,Iran,China, and Russia from there. This was one of the plans US had in 1930s, 1960s, but it was unable to proceed because of pressure from Russia...Now is a good time to execute this plan, very carefully though.

Of course, this doesn’t mean it would destroy Israel...it only means Israel won’t have the same political power it has right now.

Edited June 3, 2010 by BCMan

[naomiglover]

Geopolitically, in the next few years, Afghanistan is going to take over Israel as one of its strongest allies and strongholds. As soon as the Afghan government has the control over most of the regions, it would be possible to implement this strategy. Right now, most of the military infrastructure in Afghanistan is built and controlled by the US and they are not leaving soon.

They can easily manage Pakistan,Iran,China, and Russia from there. This was one of the plans US had in 1930s, 1960s, but it was unable to proceed because of pressure from Russia...Now is a good time to execute this plan, very carefully though.

Of course, this doesn’t mean it would destroy Israel...it only means Israel won’t have the same political power it has right now.

Afghanistan does not have an AIPAC.

[BCMan]

Majority of the US hates AIPAC and their mission to support Israel’s interests over US...Do you really think they would allow another lobby group that will damage their reputation. US has already spent $100 billion on rebuilding the country and it’s clear that it’s willing to spend more.

For now, Israel has to sign NPT and give the world control over its weapons of mass destruction.

Afghanistan does not have an AIPAC.

[naomiglover]

For now, Israel has to sign NPT and give the world control over its weapons of mass destruction.

That's not going to happen. Israel has too much influence over the US government. Take a look at the amount of money many of the politicians receive from AIPAC. Look at his administration which includes many Clintonites that Obama had to put in to receive Clinton's support during the election. Not many presidents can become a president, without the backing of the powerful AIPAC.

[Bonam]

That's not going to happen. Israel has too much influence over the US government. Take a look at the amount of money many of the politicians receive from AIPAC. Look at his administration which includes many Clintonites that Obama had to put in to receive Clinton's support during the election. Not many presidents can become a president, without the backing of the powerful AIPAC.

Not that it matters in either case. Even if the US wanted to pressure Israel to abolish its nuclear weapons, I strongly doubt Israel would comply. They are Israel's last line of defense and guarantee against an existential threat, and frankly losing their nuclear deterrent would be far worse for Israel than losing US support.

[naomiglover]

Not that it matters in either case. Even if the US wanted to pressure Israel to abolish its nuclear weapons, I strongly doubt Israel would comply. They are Israel's last line of defense and guarantee against an existential threat, and frankly losing their nuclear deterrent would be far worse for Israel than losing US support.

Not that it will happen, but it depends on the pressure.

Israel would not be able to continue what it's doing without the $3billion a year and the political impunity it receives from the United States.

It's those two factors that are allowing Israel to continue violate international law. Not the nuclear weapons.

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel would not be able to continue what it's doing without the $3billion a year and the political impunity it receives from the United States.

Yes it could....see Israel's early history sans US billion$.

It's those two factors that are allowing Israel to continue violate international law. Not the nuclear weapons.

Illogical....the alleged nuclear weapons capability exists irrespective of US aid. Otherwise Egypt would have them too.

[BCMan]

Not alleged, its a Fact. Israel tried to sell Nukes to South Africa:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons

The $3 billion aid is a direct fund to IDF. that is a huge amount when it comes to military Research and development. losing that aid will have a big impact on IDF's budget. furthermore; US is the only super power ally of Israel and it would be disaterous if Israel loses US support.

They have to sign NPT eventually. It’s in their best interest to sign it while they have US support

Illogical....the alleged nuclear weapons capability exists irrespective of US aid. Otherwise Egypt would have them too.

[Bonam]

Not alleged, its a Fact. Israel tried to sell Nukes to South Africa:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons

Actually the only thing that the memo says is that Israel offered to sell South Africa Jericho missiles. Everything else is speculation. The Guardian's (probably the most anti-Israeli biased major paper in the English speaking world) claim that Israel was going to sell south Africa nuclear weapons (which it never did) was that the term "correct payload" was used in reference to the missiles. However, "correct payloads" for those missiles could also be conventional, chemical, or biological, and moreover could come from anywhere, not just from Israel.

The $3 billion aid is a direct fund to IDF. that is a huge amount when it comes to military Research and development. losing that aid will have a big impact on IDF's budget. furthermore; US is the only super power ally of Israel and it would be disaterous if Israel loses US support.

And yet Israel did just fine before this fund was available. It would do fine without it again. Military R&D would continue. $3 billion/year is hardly a deal breaker in the grand scheme of things.

Second, the US is the only present super power, period. There are no others. No other nation has real worldwide force projection on a scale anywhere comparable. Losing US support would be unfortunate in some ways but would also let Israel act more freely since they would no longer have the threat of US support being removed and pressure from the US to "show restraint", a euphemism for Israel not defending itself despite continually suffering terrorist attacks.

They have to sign NPT eventually. It’s in their best interest to sign it while they have US support

Why would they have to sign the NPT? The NPT is a BS treaty, which is falling apart as more and more countries acquire nuclear weapons. It is failing to be applied properly to its signatories, both in stopping them from developing nuclear weapons as well as in allowing them to peacefully develop nuclear technology.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Bonam

[bush_cheney2004]

Not alleged, its a Fact. Israel tried to sell Nukes to South Africa:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons

The nuclear weapons capabilities of Israel have not been demonstrated in verifiable form (i.e. testing and deployment).

The $3 billion aid is a direct fund to IDF. that is a huge amount when it comes to military Research and development. losing that aid will have a big impact on IDF's budget. furthermore; US is the only super power ally of Israel and it would be disaterous if Israel loses US support.

US aid to Israel has been a mix of ESF, FMF, and other aid. Direct economic aid has only recently been eliminated (in favor of loan guarantees) as part of the mix, and military aid includes targeted "anti-terrorism" R&D. Israel is in effect a weapons lab and proving ground for the United States. Aid guarantees are also part of peace settlements with Egypt and Jordan, which receive billions in US aid as well.

They have to sign NPT eventually. It’s in their best interest to sign it while they have US support

The NPT is a political framework. Despite being a NPT signatory, Canada had far more deployed nuclear weapons through 1984, and continues to directly support the nuclear fuel cycle with exports.

[naomiglover]

The nuclear weapons capabilities of Israel have not been demonstrated in verifiable form (i.e. testing and deployment).

You're falling out of character.

You've gone from the straight talking no nonsense BushCheney2004, to pretending that the whole world doesn't already know that Israel has nuclear weapons. Cut the bull.

You should leave that to people like DogOnPorch and American Woman.

US aid to Israel has been a mix of ESF, FMF, and other aid. Direct economic aid has only recently been eliminated (in favor of loan guarantees) as part of the mix, and military aid includes targeted "anti-terrorism" R&D. Israel is in effect a weapons lab and proving ground for the United States. Aid guarantees are also part of peace settlements with Egypt and Jordan, which receive billions in US aid as well.

Israel has received an estimated $114 billion dollars in military and economic grants and other types of aid, like immigrant and ASHA. Close to half of this $114 billion has been in military grants. The money Egypt and Jordan receive are to keep them in check and to not cross Israel. This is why Mobarak is widely known as a dictator of its own people and a puppet to the Americans and Israelis. Why do you think Egypt agreed to keep its borders closed to Gazans, despite the Egyptian people's discontent? It's the $1billion it receives yearly.

The money aside, the biggest help Israel receives is US' unconditional political support. Remove the aid and the political backing, Israel would not last.

I'm quite certain that in time, U.S. will no longer be able to support Israel's policies and agenda. Israel will be another Apartheid South Africa.

[bush_cheney2004]

You're falling out of character.

You've gone from the straight talking no nonsense BushCheney2004, to pretending that the whole world doesn't already know that Israel has nuclear weapons. Cut the bull.

The only bull is coming from your embrace of assumptions over verified capabilities.

You should leave that to people like DogOnPorch and American Woman.

Other members who obviously can hold their own.

Israel has received an estimated $114 billion dollars in military and economic grants and other types of aid, like immigrant and ASHA. Close to half of this $114 billion has been in military grants. The money Egypt and Jordan receive are to keep them in check and to not cross Israel. This is why Mobarak is widely known as a dictator of its own people and a puppet to the Americans and Israelis. Why do you think Egypt agreed to keep its borders closed to Gazans, despite the Egyptian people's discontent? It's the $1billion it receives yearly.

US economic, military, and humanitarian aid runs at about $15 billion per year. I have already demonstrated why Egypt receives aid and supports US interests in the region.

The money aside, the biggest help Israel receives is US' unconditional political support. Remove the aid and the political backing, Israel would not last.

Countries without US aid or "political support" have lasted....your assertion is without merit.

I'm quite certain that in time, U.S. will no longer be able to support Israel's policies and agenda. Israel will be another Apartheid South Africa.

South Africa did not disappear. Neither will Israel.

[naomiglover]

Countries without US aid or "political support" have lasted....your assertion is without merit.

South Africa did not disappear. Neither will Israel.

I never said South Africa disappeared or Israel will disappear.

Apartheid South Africa, however, did disappear. If US stops supporting Israel economically and politically, Israel's violations will end sooner than later. Israel's current agenda and ideology will not be able to last much longer. With or without US's help.

The number of Israelis and Jews supporting Israel's violations are decreasing. Especially those who live outside of Israel. Majority of the supporters have become either religious radicals or old timers who are still hanging on to the 1967 movement. The zionist movement is no longer sustainable.

Edited June 5, 2010 by naomiglover

[bush_cheney2004]

I never said South Africa disappeared or Israel will disappear.

You said: "Remove the aid and the political backing, Israel would not last". It is clear that this is your wish.

Apartheid South Africa, however, did disappear. If US stops supporting Israel economically and politically, Israel's violations will end sooner than later. Israel's current agenda and ideology will not be able to last much longer. With or without US's help.

Make up your mind...you're all over the place. Is "US help" critical or not. Keep trying....something may stick to the wall eventually. Israel is entitled to economic and political ties to the USA just as much as any other nation, including Canada.

The number of Israelis and Jews supporting Israel's violations are decreasing. Especially those who live outside of Israel. Majority of the supporters have become either religious radicals or old timers who are still hanging on to the 1967 movement. The zionist movement is no longer sustainable.

Yet Israel remains dominant in the region. It is telling that you continue to focus on Jews, even as Israel's support is broader based than that.

[August1991]

Israel has received an estimated $114 billion dollars in military and economic grants and other types of aid, like immigrant and ASHA.

Naomi, you imply that the US has bought Israeli support, or vice-versa.

Have you considered another possibility? Israel and America are western democracies that defend one another?

----

In your claims of "Israeli Apartheid", you in effect defend regimes that make women hide their heads, and make them legally less than a man.

In Israel, gays can openly meet, women are free to drive cars and both can openly disagree with the Israeli government.

In Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Saudi Arabia, what is the status of women, gays or opponents of the regime?

Naomi, you are not a true progressive. If you were, you would oppose these Arab regimes.

Edited June 6, 2010 by August1991

[BCMan]

August1991...it’s not mature to think like this. You have been preaching that Islam doesn’t treat women right or looks down at gays, but every other religion has the same element. It’s childish to think that if you support Palestine you support their religion or their treatment of women and if you support Israel, it’s because they treat gays as equals. You need to do more research about world politics and don’t believe whatever you read in the news or hear from your parents.

Naomi, you imply that the US has bought Israeli support, or vice-versa.

Have you considered another possibility? Israel and America are western democracies that defend one another?

----

In your claims of "Israeli Apartheid", you in effect defend regimes that make women hide their heads, and make them legally less than a man.

In Israel, gays can openly meet, women are free to drive cars and both can openly disagree with the Israeli government.

In Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Saudi Arabia, what is the status of women, gays or opponents of the regime?

Naomi, you are not a true progressive. If you were, you would oppose these Arab regimes.

Edited June 7, 2010 by BCMan

[BCMan]

I get the feeling that you are describing Israel as a US tech farm. That undermines their relations with the US. How hard is it for them to change suppliers? [Don’t claim no other country in the world matches Israel’s technology]

As I said, If Israel doesn’t believe NPT is going to limit their actions; they should have no problem signing it. But, it’s clear that they are thinking of singing it now.

US aid to Israel has been a mix of ESF, FMF, and other aid. Direct economic aid has only recently been eliminated (in favor of loan guarantees) as part of the mix, and military aid includes targeted "anti-terrorism" R&D. Israel is in effect a weapons lab and proving ground for the United States. Aid guarantees are also part of peace settlements with Egypt and Jordan, which receive billions in US aid as well.

The NPT is a political framework. Despite being a NPT signatory, Canada had far more deployed nuclear weapons through 1984, and continues to directly support the nuclear fuel cycle with exports.

[bush_cheney2004]

I get the feeling that you are describing Israel as a US tech farm. That undermines their relations with the US. How hard is it for them to change suppliers? [Don’t claim no other country in the world matches Israel’s technology]

Heh heh...you still don't get it. Israel not only has the technical infrastucture for weapons development and testing, it also has a standing conflict and enemy on which to test them. Also, no other country in the world is as "motivated" to do so.

As I said, If Israel doesn’t believe NPT is going to limit their actions; they should have no problem signing it. But, it’s clear that they are thinking of singing it now.

The NPT is only as good as compliance inspections and enforcement. Canada could very well have non-disclosed nuclear weapons if it chose to do so (again).

[BCMan]

You agree with my point that Israel is a military tech farm for US. Its main objective is to create/test weapons for US. That would make it a military supplier.

I agree that Israel co-operates with US military and has motivates to provide tech for the US military. But, by backing Israel, US runs the risk of alienation among its allies (almost all of them). Obama is going to play safe here and follow the demands of UN and other countries. Its relations with its allies are more important than a military supplier.

This doesn’t mean US will drop all relations with Israel. It only means that US will be less willing to support/babysit and save Israel from trouble every time. Israel does need US more than US needs Israel - It should cooperate with the US government rather than defy its demands and piss off Obama.

Heh heh...you still don't get it. Israel not only has the technical infrastucture for weapons development and testing, it also has a standing conflict and enemy on which to test them. Also, no other country in the world is as "motivated" to do so.

[Bonam]

You agree with my point that Israel is a military tech farm for US. Its main objective is to create/test weapons for US.

That is hardly Israel's main objective.

That would make it a military supplier.

Actually that would make it an important trade partner.

I agree that Israel co-operates with US military and has motivates to provide tech for the US military. But, by backing Israel, US runs the risk of alienation among its allies (almost all of them).

Most of America's allies are dependent on it in some way, at least in the economic sense, and so would not alienate themselves from the US regardless of America's policy in the middle-east.

Obama is going to play safe here and follow the demands of UN and other countries.

Sounds quite un-American to me.

Its relations with its allies are more important than a military supplier.

It's allies would rest more secure knowing that it faithfully supports an ally (Israel) even when world opinion might push otherwise.

This doesn’t mean US will drop all relations with Israel. It only means that US will be less willing to support/babysit and save Israel from trouble every time.

When exactly has the US "saved Israel from trouble". Israel has been saving itself, by itself, since its creation.

Israel does need US more than US needs Israel - It should cooperate with the US government rather than defy its demands and piss off Obama.

Israel is a sovereign and independent state and will defy Obama whenever it sees fit to do so.