A Modest Proposal for Mideast Peace for Land

[dre]

Then learn...

Im well aware of the history there regarding squabling over control of the River Jordans headwaters, and the inherent vulnerability for Israel in being a downstream state. Some of the very first violence in the conflict resulted from Israel bombing various attempts by arabs to divert the water and starve Israel out.

But you didnt make a point... your statement didnt contradict mine... its not relevent.

Try the follow the conversation or dont be suprised when people keep laughing at you or ignoring you.

Go back... re-read my post... and post a relevant reply. Then we can continue.

[DogOnPorch]

As long as you're not implying that Israel takes all the water and everybody else is innocent. One fun thing to do Sundays is to pee in the river just upstream from the Christians getting baptized.

[dre]

As long as you're not implying that Israel takes all the water and everybody else is innocent. One fun thing to do Sundays is to pee in the river just upstream from the Christians getting baptized.

Ok I gotta ask...

What in the ever loving fuck are you talking about?

Heres what I said...

Not west bank agricultural productivity per say but the 1/3 of their fresh water that comes from the mountain aquifier. Chances of Israel giving up no matter what the palestinians do = ZERO.

Do you see anywhere in there where I said "Israel takes all the water and everyone else is innocent?"

No.

Do you see anywhere in there where I claimed Israels Arab neighbors dont abuse the water supply?

No.

Do you even vaguely pay attention to the world around you?

My point quite simply is that Israel can not withdraw from the west bank because they pump 1/3 of their drinking water from it.

Good grief.

[DogOnPorch]

Ok I gotta ask...

What in the ever loving fuck are you talking about?

Heres what I said...

Do you see anywhere in there where I said "Israel takes all the water and everyone else is innocent?"

No.

Do you see anywhere in there where I claimed Israels Arab neighbors dont abuse the water supply?

No.

Do you even vaguely pay attention to the world around you?

My point quite simply is that Israel can not withdraw from the west bank because they pump 1/3 of their drinking water from it.

Good grief.

You'll die at a young age with that throbbing temple vein you have.

[dre]

You'll die at a young age with that throbbing temple vein you have.

Youre reading me about as well as you read the posts you reply to. Im not angry at you, I think youre hilarious. Im seriously considering organizing a telethon for you to be honest.

[DogOnPorch]

Youre reading me about as well as you read the posts you reply to. Im not angry at you, I think youre hilarious. Im seriously considering organizing a telethon for you to be honest.

High-blood pressure medicine is available for your likes. As well, mood altering drugs will prevent your temper from getting the best of you. Think of it! No more kicking the dog or slamming the door too hard when little things start 'getting to you'...like posts on the internet.

Let Dr Dog help...he wants to help...lol.

[Jack Weber]

High-blood pressure medicine is available for your likes. As well, mood altering drugs will prevent your temper from getting the best of you. Think of it! No more kicking the dog or slamming the door too hard when little things start 'getting to you'...like posts on the internet.

Let Dr Dog help...he wants to help...lol.

Plus...

You could set him up with some nice propane accessories for his barbecue!

[DogOnPorch]

Plus...

You could set him up with some nice propane accessories for his barbecue!

Let's hope he's not a charcoal man.

[Argus]

Here's my plan.

Israel retains east Jerusalem, and the Palestinians forget about the right of return. Israel will NEVER give up Jerusalem and NEVER allow millions of irredeemably hostile Muslims to become citizens. Forget it.

Israel gives up ALL other territory. Full stop. End of story.

Egypt absorbs Gaza. Jordan absorbs the West Bank. Neither area can possibly survive economically as independant entitites anyway. They lack the resources and territory necessary to any kind of succesful state. If they actually ever got independence they'd make Bangladesh seem like paradise. The only reason most of those people even eat is because of largely American charity (ever wonder why the Palestinian terrorist groups virtually never target Americans?). And that charity can not form the basis for an independent state.

Both Egypt and Jordan are paid a good deal of money by the UN to help them with the annexation and for economic improvements to the new territories. A water sharing agreement between Israel, Lebanon and Jordan involves external assistance to set up a pipeline bringing water from Turkey for the use of all three parties.

The idiot Arab nations which have kept "Palestinian refugees" in perpetual camps for generations admit that anyone born on their territory is actually one of their citizens, and grant them full citizenship rights (not that this actually brings much in most Arab states).

[DogOnPorch]

Here's my plan.

Israel retains east Jerusalem, and the Palestinians forget about the right of return. Israel will NEVER give up Jerusalem and NEVER allow millions of irredeemably hostile Muslims to become citizens. Forget it.

Israel gives up ALL other territory. Full stop. End of story.

Egypt absorbs Gaza. Jordan absorbs the West Bank. Neither area can possibly survive economically as independant entitites anyway. They lack the resources and territory necessary to any kind of succesful state. If they actually ever got independence they'd make Bangladesh seem like paradise. The only reason most of those people even eat is because of largely American charity (ever wonder why the Palestinian terrorist groups virtually never target Americans?). And that charity can not form the basis for an independent state.

Both Egypt and Jordan are paid a good deal of money by the UN to help them with the annexation and for economic improvements to the new territories. A water sharing agreement between Israel, Lebanon and Jordan involves external assistance to set up a pipeline bringing water from Turkey for the use of all three parties.

The idiot Arab nations which have kept "Palestinian refugees" in perpetual camps for generations admit that anyone born on their territory is actually one of their citizens, and grant them full citizenship rights (not that this actually brings much in most Arab states).

I like it! The trick being getting Hamas and Hezbollah to play along.

[Jack Weber]

I like it! The trick being getting Hamas and Hezbollah to play along.

Ahmedinijad will make sure of it.

[Bonam]

Here's my plan.

Israel retains east Jerusalem, and the Palestinians forget about the right of return. Israel will NEVER give up Jerusalem and NEVER allow millions of irredeemably hostile Muslims to become citizens. Forget it.

Israel gives up ALL other territory. Full stop. End of story.

Egypt absorbs Gaza. Jordan absorbs the West Bank. Neither area can possibly survive economically as independant entitites anyway. They lack the resources and territory necessary to any kind of succesful state. If they actually ever got independence they'd make Bangladesh seem like paradise. The only reason most of those people even eat is because of largely American charity (ever wonder why the Palestinian terrorist groups virtually never target Americans?). And that charity can not form the basis for an independent state.

Both Egypt and Jordan are paid a good deal of money by the UN to help them with the annexation and for economic improvements to the new territories. A water sharing agreement between Israel, Lebanon and Jordan involves external assistance to set up a pipeline bringing water from Turkey for the use of all three parties.

The idiot Arab nations which have kept "Palestinian refugees" in perpetual camps for generations admit that anyone born on their territory is actually one of their citizens, and grant them full citizenship rights (not that this actually brings much in most Arab states).[

Unfortunately the problem is that Jordan doesn't want the West Bank and Egypt doesn't want Gaza. Why would these states, which have achieved relative peace and order within themselves, want to grant citizenship to millions of destitute savages, with thousands and thousands of terrorists among them? No one wants the Palestinians or their territories, not Jordan, not Egypt, and certainly not Israel. Unfortunately for them, they will sooner or later have to be responsible for themselves, even if the result is one of the world's worst examples of a failed state.

As for the lack of resources and territory to make a succesful state.. that's just not true. What they lack is the skills and determination, not the resources. If the Jewish settlers who came to Israel over the last 60 years had gone instead to the West Bank, it would be that region which would now be a prosperous first world nation. Do you have any doubt of it? The West Bank has water, land, and air. Everything else can be made. The territory on which Israel was built certainly had nothing more.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Bonam

[scootie]

The quoted posts are on a thread that has veered to discussion of the recent Israeli interdiction of a "Turkish aid vessel" headed to the Gaza strip.

This post and others like it posts got me to thinking about how to bring Mideast peace, if indeed it can be obtained.

My tentative proposal (and I'm not sure I have worked out all the details) would be as follows:

1. Israel gives back all land except for Jerusalem and environs;
   
2. Existing Israeli settlers be provided guarantees of safety, while their land would operate under local West Bank government;
   
3. Elected local governments in Gaza and West Bank rule those areas, with a highway corridor connecting them;
   
4. All Arab governments accord Israel full diplomatic recognition;
   
5. All Arab boycotts of Israel immediately cease;
   
6. Realistic economic development projects should be promulgated for land returend to Arab control so there would be an agenda other than continuing warfare;
   
7. All Arab governmentsal entities and other stakeholders abandon any claim to a "right of return" of Arab refugees or their descendants;
   
8. Arabs and Jews who are now living in pre-1967 Israel and Jerusalem and lawful immigrants have full civil rights in Israel as Israelis;
   
9. Arabs and Jews who are now living in pre-1967 West Bank and/or Gaza, except Jerusalem and lawful immigrants have full civil rights in their respective areas;
   
10. All people could travel freely through the region, subject to normal, neutral rules of border control and internal security; and
    
11. All Arab governmentsal entities and other stakeholders abandon any claim to any part of pre-1967 Israel or Jerusalem;
    
12. The Golan Heights would remain under Israeli military control, but prior residents and their descendants would have a right of return; and
    
13. Israel would have the right to control and interdict all flow of armaments to West Bank and/or Gaza
    

The Arab stakeholders should be given a short but reasonable time to accept or reject such a proposal. If rejected, the Israelis would have the full right to continue, full force, the state of war that's been declared since 1948 and never ended. This would involve the likely expulsion of the local Arab population from Gaza and the West Bank.

There is nothing anti-Muslim or anti-Arab in this post. It is too much to expect any country to exist, forever, in a state of warfare where only one side can fight without restraint. The Arabs cannot continue to play a game of "heads I win tails you lose" where they attack Israel, either directly or through asymetrical warfare, and then the world forces Israel to respond with both hands tied behind their backs.

I agree with much of what you propose....I think it should play out like this:

http://westbankspiralplan.blogspot.com/

[Bonam]

I agree with much of what you propose....I think it should play out like this:

http://westbankspiralplan.blogspot.com/

Don't think that plan would fly. Israel only contiguous with Jerusalem through a long thin spiral? Leaving it as a totally indefensible position? Palestinians losing such a huge chunk of the West Bank?

The current borders make a lot more sense.

[scootie]

Don't think that plan would fly.

Me either, that is not the point. “in this ‘thought experiment’, I’m just trying to ‘skip ahead’ to a time of negotiations and posit what a fair final settlement plan would look like”

Israel only contiguous with Jerusalem through a long thin spiral? Leaving it as a totally indefensible position?

True, the western territory that currently connects Jerusalem to greater Israel is crossed by Palestinian bands in the plan, but this concession is what allows the contiguity of both states. From a practical standpoint secure bridges or tunnels could be built to short circuit these distances.

I believe the security of Jerusalem is currently concerned with asymmetrical attacks and its defenses against this are constant, vigilant and already in the City. It would never be indefensible.

The threat of a larger attack on Israel now is not so much on land as it was in 1948 or during the other major armed conflicts; it is now from places like Iran and [formerly] Iraq with missile attacks. Another ‘benefit' to the interlocking spirals is that crude missile attacks [or heaven forbid, nuke] on either of the bands could very easily overshoot or undershoot and hit the next ‘friendly’ band; a potential deterrent for an attacker who actually cares for one of the sides.

Palestinians losing such a huge chunk of the West Bank?

Land swaps would somewhat balance this. Like the Palestinian band over the western territory that currently connects Jerusalem to greater Israel

The current borders make a lot more sense.

They do not make sense for a 2 state solution.

[Argus]

Ahmedinijad will make sure of it.

Once this issue is settled Hezbollah has no reason for continued existence. And Iran will have a hard time explaining to the Muslim world why it keeps sending money and missiles to these groups in order to fight Egypt and Jordan.

[Argus]

Unfortunately the problem is that Jordan doesn't want the West Bank and Egypt doesn't want Gaza.

Of course they don't want them! West Germany didn't really want to reabsorb East Germany either, given the immense cost and social disruption absorbing a piss-poor backward area would involve. But they did it anyway. Jordan has already grabbed off a big chunk of the West Bank, of what was to be "Palestine." Are they going to give it back if Palestine becomes a free state? Pretty damned unlikely. We must remember that these political designations are artificial. The entire area was called Palestine until the British carved out a section, called it "Jordan", and gave it independance. They are essentially the same people. Gaza used to be administered by Egypt. It's only about 125 square miles, and I fail to see how it can be incorporated with the West Bank given Israel in between them.

As for how to convince Jordan and Egypt to absorb these territories. That's easy. We bribe them. Plus, both of them have to realize they would be far better off if this incessent political turmoil fades away.

As for the lack of resources and territory to make a succesful state.. that's just not true. What they lack is the skills and determination, not the resources. If the Jewish settlers who came to Israel over the last 60 years had gone instead to the West Bank, it would be that region which would now be a prosperous first world nation.

Different time, different situation. Israel did start off with a highly motivated, western, educated population who brought a lot of wealth with them and who could rely on world generosity for quite some time. Palestine will not have those advantages. And look at a map. The West Bank is far smaller than Israel - given what Jordan has scarved off, and is landlocked. Gaza is on the coast but it's tiny, and the two are seperated by Israel.

[dre]

None of this matters and none of these ideas will work. Theres simply no reason for Israel to give any usefull land back.

[Argus]

None of this matters and none of these ideas will work. Theres simply no reason for Israel to give any usefull land back.

So tell us, if you believe what Israel is doing is so utterly logical and so very clearly and obviously in their own best interests, and that they'd be crazy to stop, then why are you so mad at them?

[dre]

So tell us, if you believe what Israel is doing is so utterly logical and so very clearly and obviously in their own best interests, and that they'd be crazy to stop, then why are you so mad at them?

All I did was inject a little reality into the conversation. Even if all the violence stopped and Arabs and Jews fell in love with each other, the underlying reasons why Israel took the west bank and the golan heights and kept them would still be there. Its simply not an option for Israel to withdraw from those territories... they get 2/3's of their fresh water from them. No country on earth would be in a position to give that up NEVER MIND one located in the increasing dry and worthless dirt-hole in which all those poor fuckers (both jews and arabs) have to live.

Any "plan" that has a chance of success will have to deal with these basic underlying issues.

My guess though is that not only will they fail to resolve the conflict but the conflict will escalate as the region dries out. Israel threatened to bomb Lebanon just a few years ago over pumping water out of the Litany.

If the west wants to really help then we should focus on brokering a water sharing agreement and pay for a shitload more desalination projects etc. That would do ten times as much as our worthless attempts to date.

But things are not going to go well there... Im glad most of my families out now (both my parents are from Israel), and I hope my remaining relatives get out of that shit hole soon.

[Bonam]

If the west wants to really help then we should focus on brokering a water sharing agreement and pay for a shitload more desalination projects etc. That would do ten times as much as our worthless attempts to date.

Indeed, if the West does want to throw money at the region, desalinization plants would be a worthy investment.

[williat]

I agree for the most part with the OP, but there are some areas that I could see being problematic in my mind;

2) I’m not sure how secure most Israeli’s would feel in this situation, one little bump in the road and shit could hit the fan (pardon my French).

3) I’m just sort of being a jerk with this one but what if Hamas was elected in both those areas (hypothetically). But the highway I agree with.

4) Even Iran?

12) I believe this involves Syria more then Palestine as someone has already pointed out. But yes it is of security importance to Israel.

13) I can’t see this working, it would give Israel too much control is what I’m guessing the argument would be. I mean eventually Palestine would be allowed to form a military I would assume, so this would sort of hamper that entire idea in my mind.

I feel that there are so many issues in the area that it would be difficult to hash out a plan such as this either way. I’ve read through the posts so I don’t want to repeat what’s been said already, but for the most part water seems to be an important issue. As its been stated instead of just handing over money as aid, lets put it to use and build desalination projects, I mean we might as well stop giving money to let them fight each other and put it to something useful. I’ve also seen a couple arguments for international law, but I think we need to figure out what the hell international law means first, because from what I’ve always been taught it more a set of guidelines then “law”, sort of a vague concept because in reality we’re still developing it over time as far as I understand it (someone can correct me if I’m wrong). Personally I think the difference of opinion between Israel & Palestine is far too great to mend with an agreement, because as it’s already been addressed by a few, what would happen if the agreement is breached? Would we just return to how things are today, in my mind that’s not really solving anything just sort of a temporary patch. Argus’s idea of just dividing it between Jordan & Egypt seems to me like it could be the most realistic option, if the OP plan worked out Palestine would still be a mess for many many years afterward, at least Argus has proposed an idea that in my mind would make this entire idea a whole lot less stressful for those involved.

[myata]

There is nothing anti-Muslim or anti-Arab in this post. It is too much to expect any country to exist, forever, in a state of warfare where only one side can fight without restraint. The Arabs cannot continue to play a game of "heads I win tails you lose" where they attack Israel, either directly or through asymetrical warfare, and then the world forces Israel to respond with both hands tied behind their backs.

However it is not a fair settlement and for that reason it does not have much likelihood of being accepted freely by both sides. The reasons are too many to site, only to start:

1. Why this "except"? Who will agree to it and with what justification? Jerusalem has as much meaning and significance to Palestine as to Israel and this condition contradicts position shared by Palestine and Arab league as well as original UN plan (Wikipedia: territories)

2. and 7. So Jewish settlers who received land as a result of state sponsored policy of illegal and forced settlement get to keep it, while Palestinians give up their right of return? How symmetrical

3. Is that supposed to mean that your plan will dictate how the state of Palestine will be governed? Would there be a similar provision for Israel too?

8. No granting of rights is not a replacement of sovereign control of the East Jerusalem. It is indeed a huge stumbling block on the way to settlement, and the proposal that would make sense to me is to allow shared administrative control over it, with any expansion of settlements explicitly prohibited and final status to be negotiated later under auspices of UN.

9. and 7. Again, a contradiction - granting military settlers "full civil rights" while abandoning any claims by civilians forcefully expulsed from Israeli territories?

11. See #1. Won't fly as I see it.

12. and 13. Presumes continuing domination by Israel and can't be a principle for a fair settlement.

Overall, the principles of resolution have been stated many times, from different sources:

A. Return to "1967 borders" or mutually agreed variations thereof

B. Mutual recognition and guarantees of security

C. Joint control over East Jerusalem with postponed final status negotiations

Personally I would add some kind of symmetrical solution for "right of return" vs "Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem" ("all in" or "all out") but that is really up to the sides to negotiate and come to agreement.

[jbg]

Personally I would add some kind of symmetrical solution for "right of return" vs "Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem" ("all in" or "all out") but that is really up to the sides to negotiate and come to agreement.

For the West Bank (not Jerusalem) that's probably not a bad mid-point for an agreement.

[myata]

For the West Bank (not Jerusalem) that's probably not a bad mid-point for an agreement.

Indeed, for East Jerusalem it could be an absolute freeze on all settlements with the final status subject to negotiated agreement at a later stage.