Religion has no place in politics!

[WIP]

On another note, I am skeptical of this quantum mechanical business where things supposedely pop in and out of existence. I believe there is a better scientific explanation of what is really going on. The fact that there is any order at all in how it works at that level indicates to me that it cannot be truly random/uncaused. Arguments for why to suggest it could be is absurd are as old as the Greeks. I have to cut this post short for now though, I must leave.

Quantum physics is a bad analogy to compare with supernatural truth claims. First of all, uncertainty and randomness exist at the sub-atomic level, and do not affect the physical causal chain of events that occur at our level. Virtual particle pairs constantly pop into existence from the fabric of space-time, only to re-combine after a brief instant in time, and annihilate each other, and vanish back into the space-time where they came from. This would be the equivalent to studying how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, if it wasn't for the fact that the physics of how electromagnetic radiation is propagated through space depends on that prediction of the existence of virtual particles.

In 1974, Stephen Hawking used their theoretical existence to make a prediction that the randomness of quantum mechanics found in the Uncertainty Principle, would cause Black Holes to give off gamma radiation -- he reasoned that at the event horizon of a black hole (where escape velocity = light speed) virtual particle pairs could be separated -- with one of the particles falling into the event horizon, and the other escaping as radiation. The existence of "Hawking Radiation" has been confirmed in observations of suspected black holes, and in high energy lab experiments....adding to the evidence for virtual particles.

Long story short -- no matter how strange and counter-intuitive physics is at the sub-atomic level, with it's uncertainty, randomness, and particles popping in and out of existence, there have been numerous predictions based on the principles of quantum mechanics -- so we don't get to believe or disbelieve, any more than we can choose to believe or disbelieve in whether the sun will rise tomorrow. For all its strangeness, quantum mechanics makes predictions that have been verified and used for the development of new technology. But on the other hand, when it comes to supernatural truth claims, we don't get any predictions that can be verified. You can choose to believe in a supernatural realm, but you can't provide direct or indirect evidence for its existence.

[Shwa]

"Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters."

--- Bob Dylan

Pretty much sums up my view on politics, religion and damned near everything else. This board alone is filled with people are basically teat-sucking hero worshipers, with little capacity to formulate an independent thought, or at the very least the courage to speak it.

Wow. Well, I feel much better knowing that you are here sitting in judgement on anyone who happens to post because, you know, someone has to. Is there a book or something that you can suggest that can show the rest of us unwashed masses how you determine right from wrong?

[charter.rights]

Wow. Well, I feel much better knowing that you are here sitting in judgement on anyone who happens to post because, you know, someone has to. Is there a book or something that you can suggest that can show the rest of us unwashed masses how you determine right from wrong?

Sure there is.

Toadbrother is right, everyone else is wrong.

[GostHacked]

Can you explain the difference between your brain and your mind?

Yes. it's pretty easy as well.

The difference is the brain is hardware and the mind you can look at as the operating system or software.

My brain is a physical organ in the human body that connects and controls all other organs in the body. My brain is no different from your brain for the most part when talking about physical make up. My mind would be how I process information based on experiences, all that information gets stored in the brain. That process can change over time in light of new evidence.

My mind is contingent on the brain being alive and synapses are firing due to electrochemical reactions in my brain because of recieved input from the senses. Without that there is no place for the mind to work.

They are two different things but completely dependent on each other.

[GostHacked]

Government needs to work with tangible and statistical information and make a decision based on rational thought that will help govern the masses. Religion needs to be set aside when making policy and law. Irrational thinking through mystical sky gods is not going to be objective enough to create a policy or a law that will treat everyone the same.

We see how that gets played out when it comes to abortion.

[ToadBrother]

On another note, I am skeptical of this quantum mechanical business where things supposedely pop in and out of existence. I believe there is a better scientific explanation of what is really going on. The fact that there is any order at all in how it works at that level indicates to me that it cannot be truly random/uncaused. Arguments for why to suggest it could be is absurd are as old as the Greeks. I have to cut this post short for now though, I must leave.

Look up vacuum energy. Quantum mechanics is probably the most successful scientific theory ever developed.

[maple_leafs182]

Is there a book or something that you can suggest that can show the rest of us unwashed masses how you determine right from wrong?

You can use Love to determine the difference between right and wrong, at least it is what I use.

Government needs to work with tangible and statistical information and make a decision based on rational thought that will help govern the masses. Religion needs to be set aside when making policy and law. Irrational thinking through mystical sky gods is not going to be objective enough to create a policy or a law that will treat everyone the same.

We live in a democracy, it isn't about helping the masses, it is about helping/benefiting the mob that holds power. If you don't agree with the mob, too bad.

[GostHacked]

You can use Love to determine the difference between right and wrong, at least it is what I use.

Common sense can be used as well to determine right or wrong.

We live in a democracy, it isn't about helping the masses, it is about helping/benefiting the mob that holds power. If you don't agree with the mob, too bad.

It does look that way. I've stated here many times the powers that be will do whatever they can to maintain status quo.

[maple_leafs182]

Common sense can be used as well to determine right or wrong.

In my books love is common sense.

Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, we need to stop them before they can use them, seems like common sense, problem is it was based on a lie. Now over 100,000 Iraqis are dead because of that lie. You think it would be common sense to pull out when they found out it was a lie, I don't know how Americans can still support that war. Anyways my point is if we went off love, war wouldn't of been an option, those lives would not have been lost in vein, nobody would of had to die. Now the country is war torn. Lives, homes, families destroyed.

Let's say they did have WMD, If we went off love, we would try and reconcile our differences and try and make everything right so they would not never use or even want those weapons in the first place.

But no, in society we think ignorance is strength.

It does look that way. I've stated here many times the powers that be will do whatever they can to maintain status quo.

exactly, this isn't how it should be, there is tyranny in government

[Oleg Bach]

In my books love is common sense.

Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, we need to stop them before they can use them, seems like common sense, problem is it was based on a lie. Now over 100,000 Iraqis are dead because of that lie. You think it would be common sense to pull out when they found out it was a lie, I don't know how Americans can still support that war. Anyways my point is if we went off love, war wouldn't of been an option, those lives would not have been lost in vein, nobody would of had to die. Now the country is war torn. Lives, homes, families destroyed.

Let's say they did have WMD, If we went off love, we would try and reconcile our differences and try and make everything right so they would not never use or even want those weapons in the first place.

But no, in society we think ignorance is strength.

exactly, this isn't how it should be, there is tyranny in government

[Oleg Bach]

There is always a degree of tyranny in all governments. It is human nature - they just can't help them selves.

[maple_leafs182]

There is always a degree of tyranny in all governments. It is human nature - they just can't help them selves.

There is no such thing as human nature. It is a myth.

[Oleg Bach]

There is no such thing as human nature. It is a myth.

I agree - when a powerful investment banker attempts to justify his cruel behavior he insists that all the bad things in people are "just human nature" so he imagines that all people by nature are bad WHICH ALLOWS HIM TO DO BAD THINGS TO ALL PEOPLE.

[Shwa]

Common sense can be used as well to determine right or wrong.

Please explain how you arrived at the conclusion that this statement is "right."

[Oleg Bach]

Please explain how you arrived at the conclusion that this statement is "right."

If it generates - peace security - good health - happiness and most of all if the thing generates life - it is RIGHT....if it generates violence - bad health - sorrow and DEATH - then it is wrong ---simple!

[ToadBrother]

Wow. Well, I feel much better knowing that you are here sitting in judgement on anyone who happens to post because, you know, someone has to. Is there a book or something that you can suggest that can show the rest of us unwashed masses how you determine right from wrong?

Morality is a consensus. Society determines what is moral. Sometimes religion is the leader, but more often than not it's simply bringing up the rear, being dragged kicking and screaming. Look at the Vatican's views on liberalism. A century ago it was railing against liberalistic institutions and philosophies, now you would think they'd been that way for the whole 2,000 years.

[GostHacked]

Please explain how you arrived at the conclusion that this statement is "right."

I challenge you determine how it is wrong.

I'll compare it to on the job safety. Common sense would mean you would handle heavy machinery with care and respect and not use equipment that is not safe to use. If you don't you are seriously going to hurt yourself or others.

It's right in my view because when I don't use common sense I am endangering myself and others around me. That tells me my statement is right.

Oleg

If it generates - peace security - good health - happiness and most of all if the thing generates life - it is RIGHT....if it generates violence - bad health - sorrow and DEATH - then it is wrong ---simple!

This I agree with.

[Shwa]

If it generates - peace security - good health - happiness and most of all if the thing generates life - it is RIGHT....if it generates violence - bad health - sorrow and DEATH - then it is wrong ---simple!

But is that 'common-sensical?'

Much peace and security has been generated by war and violence. So does this mean that war - that has generated much violence, sorryow death and bad health - is also 'right?' How about rape where the female victim is impregnated with "life" is that also 'right?'

Edited June 11, 2010 by Shwa

[Shwa]

Morality is a consensus. Society determines what is moral. Sometimes religion is the leader, but more often than not it's simply bringing up the rear, being dragged kicking and screaming. Look at the Vatican's views on liberalism. A century ago it was railing against liberalistic institutions and philosophies, now you would think they'd been that way for the whole 2,000 years.

Your views can be applied to practically any cultural insitution over the past 2,000 years, not just religion. And if it is a societal consenus that determines morality - knowing what we know about the religious and spiritual demographics of our present society - are you admitting to being immoral?

[ToadBrother]

Your views can be applied to practically any cultural insitution over the past 2,000 years, not just religion. And if it is a societal consenus that determines morality - knowing what we know about the religious and spiritual demographics of our present society - are you admitting to being immoral?

Seeing that I by and large go along with the morality of the larger society, I'd say no. That I don't think moral codes are handed down by a deity hardly makes me immoral.

And you're right, religion is just another cultural institution, although it is at least somewhat unique in that it tends to claim its proclamations, dogma and precepts have divine origin.

Are you trying to assert that lack of belief in a deity or non-religiousness are immoral positions?

[ToadBrother]

But is that 'common-sensical?'

Much peace and security has been generated by war and violence. So does this mean that war - that has generated much violence, sorryow death and bad health - is also 'right?' How about rape where the female victim is impregnated with "life" is that also 'right?'

Einstein once said "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."

I tend to agree with that. I don't think common sense is a very good guide of behavior.

[Shwa]

I challenge you determine how it is wrong.

I'll compare it to on the job safety. Common sense would mean you would handle heavy machinery with care and respect and not use equipment that is not safe to use. If you don't you are seriously going to hurt yourself or others.

It's right in my view because when I don't use common sense I am endangering myself and others around me. That tells me my statement is right.

So what you are saying, in effect, is that your a moral relativist? That it is 'right,' but mostly 'right' for you. Is that about how you see it?

[Shwa]

Einstein once said "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."

I tend to agree with that. I don't think common sense is a very good guide of behavior.

I wish I had read that quote before I was suckered into voting for Mike Harris and his "Common Sense Revolution!"

[Shwa]

Are you trying to assert that lack of belief in a deity or non-religiousness are immoral positions?

No, I am trying to discover if you assert that belief in a deity or religiousness are immoral positions.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Shwa

[Remiel]

Quantum physics...

Look up vacuum energy. Quantum mechanics is probably the most successful scientific theory ever developed.

Perhaps I phrased things somewhat poorly before. I am not suggesting that I do not think quantum mechanics is correctly describes something that is happening. What I am suggesting is that I do not buy the " out of existence " part. I am guessing when a particle pops " out of existence " it is going somewhere; just nowhere we can so far detect.