Religion has no place in politics!

[wyly]

How about Francis Collins? he's a former atheist. Now he's a Christian. He's VERY well educated. Is he ignorant? Is he stupid? Is he superstitious?

and I know a number of very well educated people who believe in ghosts, alien abductions, ESP and 911 was CIA/GWB plot...so ya Collins is an idiot...finding a handful of scientists who believe in a god vs the millions millions of scientists who do not only verifies my point... Edited May 31, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

The separation of church and state has occurred in many countries throughout history.

Joseph Stalin separated church from state.

Adolf Hitler separated church from state.

Chairman Mao separated church from state.

joining of church in state has occurred in many many more countries throughtout history with predictable deadly results

Torquemada

Genghis Khan

Tamerlane

Mohammed

Charlemange

a number of Popes and their crusades of death...

the list of state religous death dealers is endless...

and Hitler was Catholic his favourite slogan, "gott mit uns"

and Stalin didn't kill because he was an atheist and neither did Mao

Edited May 31, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

Show me how you can make something out of nothing and I'll be a keen observer.

but a sky pixie creating the entire universe and every particle in it with a wave of it's magic wand is so believable...

[lukin]

joining of church in state has occurred in many many more countries throughtout history with predictable deadly results

Torquemada

Genghis Khan

Tamerlane

Mohammed

Charlemange

a number of Popes and their crusades of death...

the list of state religous death dealers is endless...

and Hitler was Catholic his favourite slogan, "gott mit uns"

and Stalin didn't kill because he was an atheist and neither did Mao

Hitler was born a Catholic, and that's all. Adolf was a hard-core atheist. Do some research.

It's called faith, wyly. You believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe. I won't subscribe to your form of elitist hate.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Hitler was born a Catholic, and that's all. Adolf was a hard-core atheist. Do some research.

You made the claim its up to you to prove it.

[wyly]

Hitler was born a Catholic, and that's all. Adolf was a hard-core atheist. Do some research.

I have done my research YOU have not...I'm no victim of religious brainwashing convincing me Hitler was an atheist...

Hitler was raised a devote Catholic, attended school in Catholic Benedictine monastery and at one time considered joining the priesthood...

much of Hitlers political beliefs are based on those of the anti-Semitic Christian Social Party

If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people.

-Adolf Hitler speaking about the leader of the Christian Social movement (Mein Kampf)

here are some more lovely Hitler quotes, there many more for those who do their research...

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

It's called faith, wyly. You believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe. I won't subscribe to your form of elitist hate.

believe what you want just tell the truth...

and the hate is yours alone...

Edited May 31, 2010 by wyly

[Borg]

All of this is simply sniping and growling for sound bytes.

In the end you will all conform to Islamic law and you will all see that religion IS politics and politics IS religion.

And in the end religion WILL trump politics. All because you are too simple to see beyond your back yards.

And you will be judged on your religious ability.

As the mullah does his thing outside my window at this very moment I chuckle at you guys.

He has proved me right in this area - and it is coming to you - slowly and surely.

You can say it will not happen - only the blind will not see

How typically entitled you Canucks are

Borg

[bloodyminded]

All of this is simply sniping and growling for sound bytes.

In the end you will all conform to Islamic law and you will all see that religion IS politics and politics IS religion.

And in the end religion WILL trump politics. All because you are too simple to see beyond your back yards.

And you will be judged on your religious ability.

As the mullah does his thing outside my window at this very moment I chuckle at you guys.

He has proved me right in this area - and it is coming to you - slowly and surely.

You can say it will not happen - only the blind will not see

How typically entitled you Canucks are

Borg

Yes, we're so blind we cannot see the shadow of the sinister Crescent enfolding our land in its radical Islamist clutch. The Global Caliphate is on its way.

Sure, that's not paranoid or anything; it's sober political hypothesis. Hell, all you have to do is read Mark Steyn's dire warnings on the matter; but of course, you have to ignore the uncomfortable fact that all his predictions have thus far proven false.

ie: Saudi Arabia will have overthrown its monarchs and become democratic by....2010.

And Syria will have followed suit by...can you guess?....2010.

And Iraq, complete with its monuments to the glorious aristocrat George W. Bush, will be a peaceful and thriving tourist haven by....2004!

But no, no...he's really, really right this time!

Wait...what's that you say? That Steyn fudged his "facts" on demographics....according to his own sources?

Well, there's a sober response to that: "the left! the left! The Muslims!"

And other nuanced and intelligent arguments about the state of our world.

[lukin]

I have done my research YOU have not...I'm no victim of religious brainwashing convincing me Hitler was an atheist...

Hitler was raised a devote Catholic, attended school in Catholic Benedictine monastery and at one time considered joining the priesthood...

much of Hitlers political beliefs are based on those of the anti-Semitic Christian Social Party

If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people.

-Adolf Hitler speaking about the leader of the Christian Social movement (Mein Kampf)

here are some more lovely Hitler quotes, there many more for those who do their research...

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

believe what you want just tell the truth...

and the hate is yours alone...

Why is it OK to hate Christians, wyly? Why do you feel that type of hate is fine? Hitler easily fooled the masses, wouldn't you agree?

Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church. In 1933, Hitler said, 'It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.'"

Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn't fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.

Edited May 31, 2010 by lukin

[wyly]

Why is it OK to hate Christians, wyly? Why do you feel that type of hate is fine? Hitler easily fooled the masses, wouldn't you agree?

Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church.

the Catholic church has killed millions of it's own over the centuries..Pope Clement V burned the Templars as heartics does this prove the Pope isn't a catholic?...Hitler killed Nazi's as well so does that prove he wasn't a Nazi?, ...all political opposition was elliminated...other than catholic websites trying to distance themselves from Hitler there is no verified evidence Hitler was going to kill the Pope...

In 1933, Hitler said, 'It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.'"

citation please...or it's just another of those quotes that float around the internet that no one actually knows where it came from...

[lukin]

Wyly, how did you come by your faith?

[WIP]

Yes, but this point can also be argued just as well from the other side. Would they not have all the more reason to look to or believe in a creator watching down on them? I think in some instances it would.

I missed the point you're trying to make here.

I also must agree that I feel that religion is essentially a form of brainwashing and the best way to counteract it would be through education (mentioned by someone earlier).

I guess you mean teaching religion is brainwashing. That's why Dawkins made the declaration in the God Delusion that teaching religion to children is child abuse. This is nonsense since the religious traditions that parents may want to teach to their children might also include a lot of cultural aspects as well as doctrines and rituals.

Even though I am an atheist, I don't like the string of negative descriptions applied to a complex set of beliefs, rules and rituals that are lumped together under the name 'religion.' For many people, their religious beliefs provide a sense of purpose and motivation to show concern beyond their own narrow personal interests. There are a lot of benefits to society provided by religious beliefs and by being part of an organized religion. We know what the bad things are: hostility and possible conflict with those who have different beliefs, and rejection of scientific evidence that contradicts religious dogma, would be the two biggest concerns; but it would be a mistake to assume that the problems associated with religion mean that the harms outweigh all possible benefits of religion. Hitchens's claim that "religion poisons everything," and the similar claim of other celebrity New Atheists like Dawkins and Sam Harris, that everyone will be happier and the world will be a safer place without religion, are all claims that cannot be substantiated. In a sense, these are New Atheist dogmas, since Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris have to take their hope of a better world free of religion on faith, not on evidence.

And that child abuse claim also implies that children will be taught something better and of more value, if they are not given any religious training. It's more likely that they will be taught nothing about ethics and philosophy in the religion-free home. People who lack curiosity and accept their religious training without question are predestined to be followers; while many, such as myself, start questioning the faith at a young age and have to leave it behind. The power of brainwashing is greatly exaggerated.

I don't believe that politics and religion can be branched together, mainly due to the drastic differences in religious beliefs throughout the world. Religion is another means to divide, I don't consider myself a non-believer, all I'm saying is I don't know what I believe. Theres probably a strong case that can be made for all religions in some aspect, but the fact remains that all religions have conspiracy theories about being the greatest lies every told. Taking religion out of the equation would no doubt play a huge factor in world peace, IMO.

That's what I've been saying all along...religions have good aspects and bad. If a religion teaches universal values of love and respect for others, especially others with different beliefs, and has progressed far enough to be able to incorporate new scientific information, then it's a good thing! While religions that teach only the believers are worthy of concern and all else are enemies, is a dangerous religion. The problem is that both extremes exist in all of the major religions in the world today, so a simplistic judgment like Christianity good, Islam bad, doesn't work.

[bloodyminded]

Even though I am an atheist, I don't like the string of negative descriptions applied to a complex set of beliefs, rules and rituals that are lumped together under the name 'religion.' For many people, their religious beliefs provide a sense of purpose and motivation to show concern beyond their own narrow personal interests. There are a lot of benefits to society provided by religious beliefs and by being part of an organized religion.

I'm inclined to agree. I have an acquaintance who is a Quaker. They are nominally a Christian denomination, but there are no firm doctrines of belief...or at least none that you must hold to be considered a Quaker. This man tells me he's not at all sure there is a God! But he remains, happily, a Quaker, and these people are profoundly concerned with the peace and health and well-being of society.

[wyly]

And that child abuse claim also implies that children will be taught something better and of more value, if they are not given any religious training. It's more likely that they will be taught nothing about ethics and philosophy in the religion-free home.

what poo, I grew up in an atheist home and morality, ethics and philosophy were a constant part of daily life as they are in societies where religion is not present...religion is based on societies rules of behaviour not the reverse...

The power of brainwashing is greatly exaggerated.

really, 60% of the adult US population still believes a 900 year old man built a boat for two of every specie on the planet...

[wyly]

Wyly, how did you come by your faith?

as I expected, no citation

I don't have faith, I have knowledge...

[WIP]

what poo, I grew up in an atheist home and morality, ethics and philosophy were a constant part of daily life as they are in societies where religion is not present...religion is based on societies rules of behaviour not the reverse...

There is no way to unravel religion from culture or cultural influence. The modern enlightened secular humanist values did not just fall out of the sky. They started developing over the centuries by Church theologians, and there's no sense in trying to maintain that the secular movement in the West marks a complete break with Christian tradition. We've taken the things we find useful, and discarded what we don't like.

It has to be stressed also that religion is not the only source of supernatural beliefs. The prevalence of secular supernatural beliefs like ESP, clairvoyance, astral projection, astrology etc. indicates that these beliefs come from very fundamental roots in the way people learn to think and make sense of the world. Developmental psychologists point out that very young children divide the things they see into domains. Children under four years make a sharp distinction between living and non-living things, but make category errors when they ascribe personalities and desires to their favourite toys. A favourite doll or teddy bear is considered something more than a mere object, and this is where a lot of supernatural thinking gets started. Children may put this behind them when they get older, but the predisposition to attribute life forces to objects is a natural response that stays with us through life. It's a big part of the reason why otherwise mundane items that belong to famous celebrities become valuable collectibles for example. Long story short, a world without religion will still have supernatural beliefs.

really, 60% of the adult US population still believes a 900 year old man built a boat for two of every specie on the planet...

My question is can anti-theists prove that believing in wrong doctrinal beliefs causes harm? Or at least is there proof that a collection of what we consider wrong beliefs mean that entire religions are harmful and need to be discarded?

It may be possible to prove that intelligent, personal Gods do not exist, like physicist Victor Stenger contends, but that's not the same thing as having proof that having this belief is harmful. The claim that belief in God causes harm is not a fact claim, and is the equivalent of a faith position to believe that people will be happier after being deconverted and organized religions are gone.

[WIP]

I'm inclined to agree. I have an acquaintance who is a Quaker. They are nominally a Christian denomination, but there are no firm doctrines of belief...or at least none that you must hold to be considered a Quaker. This man tells me he's not at all sure there is a God! But he remains, happily, a Quaker, and these people are profoundly concerned with the peace and health and well-being of society.

I'm reminded also that Unitarian/Universalists don't even have a creed to follow to start with. Most religions are a combination of doctrinal beliefs and moral rules, or at principles that are supposed to be followed. The Unitarians just have the moral principles part, and members are free to develop a view of the world that makes sense to them as long as they are in harmony with the Seven Principles. It becomes a problem lumping religion and belief in God together as one and the same thing, when there are religions that don't even make supernatural beliefs a requirement.

[lukin]

as I expected, no citation

I don't have faith, I have knowledge...

Hmmmm...you don't have faith.

I believe in God, but I can't prove he exists. You don't believe in God and you can't prove he doesn't exist. We are both arguing from a faith position. How did you come by your faith?

Edited June 1, 2010 by lukin

[Guest TrueMetis]

Hmmmm...you don't have faith.

I believe in God, but I can't prove he exists. You don't believe in God and you can't prove he doesn't exist. We are both arguing from a faith position. How did you come by your faith?

Not believing in something that hasn't been proven is not a faith position.

[lukin]

Not believing in something that hasn't been proven is not a faith position.

Nobody has been able to prove that God doesn't exist. That is a faith truemetis;atheism. Different than my faith, but a faith nonetheless.

You believe the earth created itself from nothing, even though you cannot explain how something can come from nothing. It's hard to believe that this earth and everything on this complicated earth sprang into being one day for no reason whatsoever.

When I was in Junior high I was taught the Big Bang Theory. A huge cosmic explosion that created Earth. Isn't it miraculous that out of this explosion, Earth ended up just the right distance form the Sun that allows it to sustain life. Any closer and it would be too hot; any further away and it would be too cold. Earth's atmosphere is not replicated on any other planet. From that big bang we have huge living diversity. That seems too much a miracle to have happened by chance.

I disagree with atheists. There are 2 types of atheists. One type of atheist doesn't believe in God, but is not offended by those who do. The other type of atheist is nothing more than an anti-Christian BIGOT. Bigotry can come in many different styles.

I have no problem with non-believers. I am, however, disgusted at those bigoted atheists who ridicule Christians; calling them gullible; naive; ignorant; uneducated. I know many Christians who are doctors, lawyers, scientists...you name it. They are all well-educated.

Too many confuse God with religion.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Nobody has been able to prove that God doesn't exist. That is a faith truemetis;atheism. Different than my faith, but a faith nonetheless.

That's not how it works you don't prove something doesn't exsist, that's impossible, you prove it does exsist. Until it has been proven to exsist the default position is it doesn't exsist. Would you call not believing in unicorns faith to? Look up the null-hypothesis.

You believe the earth created itself from nothing, even though you cannot explain how something can come from nothing. It's hard to believe that this earth and everything on this complicated earth sprang into being one day for no reason whatsoever.

Are you just listing talking points off a creationist website? No scientist (at least no intelligent one) has ever said the earth created itself or that it came from nothing. And that is certainly not what I "believe" or think happened.

When I was in Junior high I was taught the Big Bang Theory. A huge cosmic explosion that created Earth. Isn't it miraculous that out of this explosion, Earth ended up just the right distance form the Sun that allows it to sustain life. Any closer and it would be too hot; any further away and it would be too cold. Earth's atmosphere is not replicated on any other planet. From that big bang we have huge living diversity. That seems too much a miracle to have happened by chance.

It was an expansion not an explosion. Not it's not miraculas, there are millions of galxies, billions of stars and trillions of planets. It would be a miricle if there were no planets like earth in the universe. I would bet there are many planets like earth out there. Also as usual you confuse the big bang with abiogenises and evolution.

I disagree with atheists. There are 2 types of atheists. One type of atheist doesn't believe in God, but is not offended by those who do. The other type of atheist is nothing more than an anti-Christian BIGOT. Bigotry can come in many different styles.

This I agree with, though there are more than 2 types of atheists. And most atheists that are anti-religion don't attack christianity any more than the other religions. Quit playing the victim.

I have no problem with non-believers. I am, however, disgusted at those bigoted atheists who ridicule Christians; calling them gullible; naive; ignorant; uneducated. I know many Christians who are doctors, lawyers, scientists...you name it. They are all well-educated.

Just because your well educated doesn't stop you from being gullible, naive, ignorant, or even uneducated, (what does a lawyer know about abiogenisis?) and beliving what you believe is exactly that. But its not a anti-christian thing there are plenty of christian who think people like you are gullible, naive, ignorant, and most certainly uneducated.

Buddy either come up with some original arguments or go do some research, these are all points that have been refuted hundreds, thousand, even millions of times.

Edited June 3, 2010 by TrueMetis

[wyly]

Hmmmm...you don't have faith.

you have no citation, you made crap up...I looked for a 1/2 hour for a citiation to your claimed Hitler quote, other than on catholic websites(they gave no citation either) trying to distance themselves from Hitlers catholic beliefs it doesn't exist...it's a lie...a Roman Catholic caused the most horrific war in human history and attempted to exterminate an entire following of another religion for religous purposes as killing them for politcal reason served no useful purpose...the Jewish extermination of WW2 was a religiously motivated act not politically motivated...

I believe in God, but I can't prove he exists. You don't believe in God and you can't prove he doesn't exist. We are both arguing from a faith position. How did you come by your faith?

knowledge is not faith, that may be the weak logic your church teaches which you think is clever but it doesn't hold water, proving the existence of nothing isn't required on my part, it's for you to prove, without proof it doesn't exist...my ten year old believes in the easter bunny and the tooth fairy (but not god)prove him wrong ...you can't so therefore he must be right, there is an easter bunny and a tooth fairy but no god.... Edited June 2, 2010 by wyly

[maple_leafs182]

Religion is just a belief, we do need some sort of belief in politics that has morals, right now politics has no morals.

[lukin]

you have no citation, you made crap up...I looked for a 1/2 hour for a citiation to your claimed Hitler quote, other than on catholic websites(they gave no citation either) trying to distance themselves from Hitlers catholic beliefs it doesn't exist...it's a lie...a Roman Catholic caused the most horrific war in human history and attempted to exterminate an entire following of another religion for religous purposes as killing them for politcal reason served no useful purpose...the Jewish extermination of WW2 was a religiously motivated act not politically motivated...

knowledge is not faith, that may be the weak logic your church teaches which you think is clever but it doesn't hold water, proving the existence of nothing isn't required on my part, it's for you to prove, without proof it doesn't exist...my ten year old believes in the easter bunny and the tooth fairy (but not god)prove him wrong ...you can't so therefore he must be right, there is an easter bunny and a tooth fairy but no god....

Can you explain the difference between your brain and your mind?

[lukin]

Hitler fooled many people. His views on Christianity changed from the 1920s, when wyly quotes him,to the 1940s when the true, evil Hitler emerged. Hitler had to pretend to be a strong Christian to garner the support of the 90% of the German people who were Christians. Hitler was a master manipulator.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

Edited June 2, 2010 by lukin