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And nobody seems to notice, no one even blinks.

Maple you have to stop saying this. Everyone is looking including us. I can honestly tell you that there is no conspiracy. I've shown you how it is possible to know what they are doing. If I was educated in finance itself I could explain it more in depth instead of just showing the policies behind whats going on. The conspiracy agenda is a brainchild of Nixon's disinformation platform. If you really want to have a good idea of how the fraudulent use of fiat money is being handled follow the SEC. There is a web page on their site that shows thousands of court cases and charges, the US dollar alone contracted by unprecedented numbers, the US is in a standstill and gold is just streaming out of the country to fix it's debt issues and international fines for the involvement with the derivative market. This is a good start. This is from paying attention, from enough people saying no more to this silliness.

I kind of think of the war crime trials of the second world war. It took many, many years to prosecute those involved. Even if it looks like some people are getting away with major fraud including the banks right now this is far from over. Some might walk once but they don't usually walk twice. Give it some more time. I wouldn't myself ever expect to find fiat money crashed and replaced but I think we will find the rewrites get better and better.

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Maple you have to stop saying this. Everyone is looking including us. I can honestly tell you that there is no conspiracy.

What's even more troubling is imagining that no one is really in control of anything at all. Ever woken up on a boat running at night and finding the guy on watch asleep at the wheel?

Land-lubbers might find a better analogy in that old saw about dying like Grampa, peacefully in his sleep with his passengers screaming their heads off as he plunges over a cliff.

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I don't care if you don't want to call it a conspiracy or what you wish to label it or not label it. This game we play called society is rigged, the tables are turned and we are the ones being taken advantage of on a daily basis and nobody does seem to notice.

The information is out there if you wish to find it but in reality most peoples truths come from the T.V.

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I don't care if you don't want to call it a conspiracy or what you wish to label it or not label it. This game we play called society is rigged, the tables are turned and we are the ones being taken advantage of on a daily basis and nobody does seem to notice.

Speak for yourself....I like the game just as it is. If you can't play it well or compete....tough noogies.

The information is out there if you wish to find it but in reality most peoples truths come from the T.V.

American "T.V."...right?

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Hi Maple, I didn't mean to sound rude. That was not my intention at all and I am glad we have been having this conversation. Mostly the way I see it is that these financial structures that we see today are built off of a blueprint that until just the last say 25 years or so worked well for them. Most of the people, at too many different times when these things were either being formed or restructured couldn't read, didn't have access to media (poor as it was/is), didn't know number's....it is all different now. The majority of people have all the ability needed to understand and the desire to understand is growing. It is not the same now as it was even 5 years ago.

I've been giving some thought lately to usury. This IMO is the culprit and wonder how fractionalization would read without it. I have gotten some good ideas out of a Sharia Finance paper awhile ago.

Oh well, type in the words 'CMKM gold standard' as a search title and see what comes up. While I myself am not a proponent of gold standard/exchange type systems I have to admire greatly the movement and the heart behind it because it is a very large group of people who are fighting exactly what we have been talking about.

For myself I would prefer some kind of fiat system without usury.

Edited by Yesterday
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Hi Maple, I didn't mean to sound rude. That was not my intention at all and I am glad we have been having this conversation. Mostly the way I see it is that these financial structures that we see today are built off of a blueprint that until just the last say 25 years or so worked well for them. Most of the people, at too many different times when these things were either being formed or restructured couldn't read, didn't have access to media (poor as it was/is), didn't know number's....it is all different now. The majority of people have all the ability needed to understand and the desire to understand is growing. It is not the same now as it was even 5 years ago.

I agree, I think it has been growing thanks to the internet, I hope we never lose net neutrality.

I've been giving some thought lately to usury. This IMO is the culprit and wonder how fractionalization would read without it. I have gotten some good ideas out of a Sharia Finance paper awhile ago.

I think it is the fractional reserve system that is the problem. The ability to create money out of nothing. Private banks hold the power of expanding and contracting the money supply. They control inflation and deflation, they create the bubbles. This whole economic slump is a result of them manipulating the economy.

I think the government needs to be in control of the issuance of currency as appose to private banks.

Oh well, type in the words 'CMKM gold standard' as a search title and see what comes up. While I myself am not a proponent of gold standard/exchange type systems I have to admire greatly the movement and the heart behind it because it is a very large group of people who are fighting exactly what we have been talking about.

I don't believe that is a true solution to the problem of pollution. It seems like a money making scheme to me.

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I think it is the fractional reserve system that is the problem. The ability to create money out of nothing. Private banks hold the power of expanding and contracting the money supply. They control inflation and deflation, they create the bubbles. This whole economic slump is a result of them manipulating the economy.

This is a statement that is hard to find fault with. I can't. It is just that realistically we are stuck with fractional reserve at least for a long time to come. It is a very entrenched system. The key at this point in time to me, is focusing on how the fraud clean-up is going to affect how much currency is really floating around because until there is a good understanding of this figure there is no way to even begin to restructure to an asset backed system let alone reduce layers of fractionalization.

All kinds of things need to happen. Like the reduction of third world debt which happens to float around the globe in terms of an asset. This is being addressed through the G8 and the IMF. Billions and billions of debt being wiped off. This is just a start. All of, or most of, the things I have brought up here have to do with the clean up of currencies around the globe. Mostly in terms of IMF credits and the US dollar. This is a good start at addressing the issue.

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We need to get rid of this system sooner then later. There is no equality in this system, threw it big corporations have sprung up and come to dominate nearly every aspect of our society. As George Carlin called them, the 'owners', they manipulate society to help benefit them at the expense of the rest. I don't believe they have an evil intent, they are just playing the game.

Democracy suffers under this system, the great majority of people on this planet suffer under this system yet many people claim what we have now is prosperity because we have paper thin televisions. The only things prospering is the arms industry, debt and poverty.

I still think a monetary based economy is a terrible system but everyone seems to loves it. If we choose to continue to use it, lets at least create a system that doesn't consolidate wealth and power.

I suggest as a start the Bank of Canada buys back all the privately owned national debt then we cancel the national debt. We would then need to implement some sort of debt free currency, not have a currency derived from debt.

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We need to get rid of this system sooner then later. There is no equality in this system, threw it big corporations have sprung up and come to dominate nearly every aspect of our society. As George Carlin called them, the 'owners', they manipulate society to help benefit them at the expense of the rest. I don't believe they have an evil intent, they are just playing the game.

Democracy suffers under this system, the great majority of people on this planet suffer under this system yet many people claim what we have now is prosperity because we have paper thin televisions. The only things prospering is the arms industry, debt and poverty.

I still think a monetary based economy is a terrible system but everyone seems to loves it. If we choose to continue to use it, lets at least create a system that doesn't consolidate wealth and power.

I suggest as a start the Bank of Canada buys back all the privately owned national debt then we cancel the national debt. We would then need to implement some sort of debt free currency, not have a currency derived from debt.

Running a debt free currency has always seemed to me to be a rather easy concept as long as proper cancellation policies are in place ie: taxes. I find the fact that all paper dollars end up at a bank to be canceled from circulation to be an important part of the scenario. This allows for (amongst other things) the ability to somewhat control the amount of floating currency to prevent an over abundance. Trading currency and other goods over borders though causes not so simple problems in this scenario. We just simply can't print debt free asset backed/fiat money in enough volume to cover the current level of business we do. Even with the level of international trade that is done on a gold asset based credit(IMF). It would be mayhem.

Debt relief is definitely in my mind a major reality to ever establishing a new type of monetary system. With a debt, with contracts that extend so far into the future giving promise of returns seemingly forever....its an addiction akin to gambling in my mind. Debt relief is the only thing that would break this cycle. We should call it an intervention. :)

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I think you're right, usury has to go.

The entire banking, monetary and by extension economic systems need to change.

I don't think people understand how urgent this really is.

We wonder why poverty never ends yet we don't ever think that maybe the system we live under, the rules, the laws, the regulations, that they could be directly creating the poverty.

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I think you're right, usury has to go.

The entire banking, monetary and by extension economic systems need to change.

I don't think people understand how urgent this really is.

We wonder why poverty never ends yet we don't ever think that maybe the system we live under, the rules, the laws, the regulations, that they could be directly creating the poverty.

Every tax increase, government fee or fine marginalizes more people.

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I still don't understand this world.

Why do we let most of the worlds wealth be horded by a small percent of the population.

Why do we care more about celebrities then helping each other.

Nothing about how we live right now makes sense to me but apparently it is all justifiable.

We need a massive change in values.

We need to legalize things like prostitution and drugs, we have to stop labeling people who enjoy those things as bad people and accept them into society.

Just a random rant..

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I still don't understand this world.

Why do we let most of the worlds wealth be horded by a small percent of the population.

Why do we care more about celebrities then helping each other.

Nothing about how we live right now makes sense to me but apparently it is all justifiable.

We need a massive change in values.

We need to legalize things like prostitution and drugs, we have to stop labeling people who enjoy those things as bad people and accept them into society.

Just a random rant..

Here's the society you seek to create:

All the businessmen, educated professionals, and in general people of above average ability have left because you wouldn't let them "hoard" anything. Everyone is poor and on drugs, but are not considered "bad people". You can get a prostitute for the night really cheap, maybe just in exchange for some legalized drugs. Your country is quarantined and sanctioned because no one else wants to deal with your gaggle of STD-infested, drugged up prostitutes that passes for your population. Oh, and there aren't even any celebrities for people to watch on TV to escape from their dreary, poverty-stricken, miserable existences.

Sound good to you?

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I still don't understand this world.

Do your best. That's all that can be expected.

Why do we let most of the worlds wealth be horded by a small percent of the population.

Our standard of living has been increasing. Is western civilization a small percentage? What is a small percentage? I believe there is a small percentage that like to feel the are in control of the world's wealth but they aren't hoarding it. It is not possible. If you think they have all the money that is not wealth.

Why do we care more about celebrities then helping each other.

We don't although I understand how you could arrive at that conclusion. In my opinion government has taken over the responsibility of the welfare of the people, foreign and domestic. People feel less responsibility toward that beyond paying their taxes.

Nothing about how we live right now makes sense to me but apparently it is all justifiable.

how are you living?

We need a massive change in values.

You mean people need to be more responsible? Well - let's make that unidentifiable faceless entity "government" less responsible.

We need to legalize things like prostitution and drugs, we have to stop labeling people who enjoy those things as bad people and accept them into society.

They really don't enjoy those things. I can't imagine anyone aspiring to become a career prostitute. A few will like the money but enjoy being a prostitute? But I agree they should be legalized, not decriminalized, legalized.

Just a random rant..

I'd like to know all the things you think is right with the world?

Edited by Pliny
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Here's the society you seek to create:

All the businessmen, educated professionals, and in general people of above average ability have left because you wouldn't let them "hoard" anything. Everyone is poor and on drugs, but are not considered "bad people". You can get a prostitute for the night really cheap, maybe just in exchange for some legalized drugs. Your country is quarantined and sanctioned because no one else wants to deal with your gaggle of STD-infested, drugged up prostitutes that passes for your population. Oh, and there aren't even any celebrities for people to watch on TV to escape from their dreary, poverty-stricken, miserable existences.

Sound good to you?

There needs to be someone to prevent hoarding and ensuring drugs are rationed and not abused. Prostitutes need medical certification and celebrities must be state approved.

There is no way to create his society without a Dictator to ensure all is well.

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I still don't understand this world.

Why do we let most of the worlds wealth be horded by a small percent of the population.

Why do we care more about celebrities then helping each other.

Nothing about how we live right now makes sense to me but apparently it is all justifiable.

We need a massive change in values.

We need to legalize things like prostitution and drugs, we have to stop labeling people who enjoy those things as bad people and accept them into society.

Just a random rant..

You understand it better than you think IMO. Don't confuse not being able to come up with a solution with not being able to understand why it is this way. What we see today in such grand proportions is a result of human nature. We are not all leaders nor all followers. It is natural in any group of people to find a need for structure, too many chiefs not enough Indians strike a bell? We have always struggled with authority/superiority. It was not so devastating at times in the past on such grand scales but our growing population exasperated this situation and shows us all to well the problems inherent in the way we developed our societies.

I think I can understand your reasoning in wanting to legalize prostitution. Is it that you think it might help to cut down on rapes and other abuses against the female body? The men who do this do it cause they want to, they already have access to sex when they want it, there are prostitutes everywhere. Personally I don't think it would make much difference in the long run but I do think it could go a long way to improving the general lot of prostitutes and the danger they face continually from pimps and the like. It could allow a face lift for the industry giving it a chance to be less offensive. Lets face it, brothels keep them off the street and labour legislation wouldn't hurt either. I wonder if it was a regulated (forgive me for using the 'r' word) industry how many girls would want to be prostitutes. I wonder if that is not an underlying factor to the general opinion of keeping it illegal. The whole concept of a woman being ok with and even wanting sex outside of marriage or its equivalent especially for money goes against most religions and also against a man's ego. To me, the inability to legalize this industry reeks of a double standard. This is one of many industries that could use some good standards and lets not kid ourselves, setting standards has gone a long way to improving the lot of most of the people in this world. I must say though that we have gone way overboard. Way, way overboard.

As for legalizing pot. I personally find it less obnoxious then boos. Not being a drinker I can honestly say that I would rather wile away a lazy afternoon with someone stoned on pot versus someone drunk on boos. Oh yes! I am of the mind that it should not be illegal but only pot. If it can be only boos, it can be only boos and pot. The rest of the drugs need to go away. Far away, going gone, IMO.

To include Pliny's reference to needing a dictator to accomplish this...I have more faith in communities being able to accomplish decisions involving social issues like prostitution and pot themselves through town and community meetings. Mind you, even now the amount of people out there willing to play the God/finance card to win a debate regardless of the devastating consequences to other's is still so predominant in social decisions that arbitration would still be a dangerous norm.

Edited by Yesterday
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This is a very interesting article about the state of the US Federal Reserve as regards to ZIRP. I just had to post it.....

Of course, with an interest rate basically at zero, the U.S. Federal Reserve has been eyeballing more exotic instruments, such as buying back more toxic debt assets from chartered banks, to help the overall economy.

Isn't it interesting that because of this interest rate they are 'cornered' (my word) into buying back the toxic debt it helped to create. The source of the force.

Interestingly, the most hawkish of the C.D. Howe's economists were all academics who argued for three per cent interest rates in 2011.

This statement sounds like the schooling of the bottom line is still kicking loudly. They can kick all they want...

TD is forecasting the bank's rate at one per cent until at least the second quarter of 2011.

The Bank of Montreal figures Canada's one per cent interest to last even longer, until the July-to-September period in 2011.

My question for this is what is so important about the second quarter or even the third quarter of next year. Just surmising....ZIRP is a part of an IMF orchestrated standstill for the US or a Global Settlement mandate (remember how many countries lost major money from the defaulting of so many bad loans hence the great possibility of there being a global settlement regarding the US banks and market that precipitated the disaster))and as so far scheduled for first quarter of 2011 the member standing revision which couldn't happen till after a lift in a standstill situation. Till that point and perhaps a bit beyond I don't think rates can raise much at all. A big thorn in the side of whiny bottom line academics here in Canada according to this article.

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Here's the society you seek to create:

All the businessmen, educated professionals, and in general people of above average ability have left because you wouldn't let them "hoard" anything. Everyone is poor and on drugs, but are not considered "bad people". You can get a prostitute for the night really cheap, maybe just in exchange for some legalized drugs. Your country is quarantined and sanctioned because no one else wants to deal with your gaggle of STD-infested, drugged up prostitutes that passes for your population. Oh, and there aren't even any celebrities for people to watch on TV to escape from their dreary, poverty-stricken, miserable existences.

Sound good to you?

Well lets just say I fundamentally disagree with you. I believe in personal liberties as appose to the government trying to force people to be a 'perfect' citizens by law.

Saying everyone would become poor and on drugs has no merit, this wouldn't happen.

There needs to be someone to prevent hoarding and ensuring drugs are rationed and not abused. Prostitutes need medical certification and celebrities must be state approved.

There is no way to create his society without a Dictator to ensure all is well.

The only way to try and prevent drug abuse is threw education, not threw prohibition.

Half of the worlds wealth is owned by 2% of the population, the wealth is being hoarded. I have come to believe that this is only possible threw fractional reserve banking. We need to end fractional reserve banking and get rid of the secrecy surrounding monetary policies.

Our society is a product of the rules we follow. Right now the rich get richer because that is how the game is set up, we need to change the rules if we want a more fair/equal playing field.

I don't want a dictatorship.

Our standard of living has been increasing. Is western civilization a small percentage? What is a small percentage? I believe there is a small percentage that like to feel the are in control of the world's wealth but they aren't hoarding it. It is not possible. If you think they have all the money that is not wealth.

They control the major corporations of the world, they have far too much power and influence over society. I think having super corporation controlling sectors of our society in a way is a form of dictatorship.

I don't think the CEO's are evil people though some probably are, I just don't like a small percentage of the population controlling the world.

They really don't enjoy those things. I can't imagine anyone aspiring to become a career prostitute. A few will like the money but enjoy being a prostitute? But I agree they should be legalized, not decriminalized, legalized.
There is the porn industry, people already do want to have sex for money. I'm sure there are prostitutes who enjoy what they do.
I'd like to know all the things you think is right with the world?

We still have net neutrality.

You understand it better than you think IMO. Don't confuse not being able to come up with a solution with not being able to understand why it is this way. What we see today in such grand proportions is a result of human nature. We are not all leaders nor all followers. It is natural in any group of people to find a need for structure, too many chiefs not enough Indians strike a bell? We have always struggled with authority/superiority. It was not so devastating at times in the past on such grand scales but our growing population exasperated this situation and shows us all to well the problems inherent in the way we developed our societies.

I don't understand why we don't change.

Is it that you think it might help to cut down on rapes and other abuses against the female body?

That, it will take an industry away from gangs and I think it is personal liberty issue. People should be allowed to have sex with whoever they want for money if they wish.

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Well lets just say I fundamentally disagree with you. I believe in personal liberties as appose to the government trying to force people to be a 'perfect' citizens by law.

Saying everyone would become poor and on drugs has no merit, this wouldn't happen.

How much wealth that one earns can he keep before he is considered to be hoarding? People don't like to have things taken from them. Money will become worthless if you state an amount, property will be held by trust companies - that happens now. It is not fair to take someone's property even if you think he is "hoarding". Do that and charity will disappear entirely. The poor will be further marginalized.

You don't want people to be perfect citizens by law but you want them to not save their money or amass property. You would call that criminal yet you believe in personal liberties and oppose government forcing people. These are incongruous views.

The only way to try and prevent drug abuse is threw education, not threw prohibition.

Half of the worlds wealth is owned by 2% of the population, the wealth is being hoarded. I have come to believe that this is only possible threw fractional reserve banking. We need to end fractional reserve banking and get rid of the secrecy surrounding monetary policies.

Yes, and..??? There is no secrecy surrounding monetary policy. There is a neglect to educate and that is true of every erudite profession or trade, but the information is there if you want it.

Our society is a product of the rules we follow. Right now the rich get richer because that is how the game is set up, we need to change the rules if we want a more fair/equal playing field.

The rich are not getting richer. 2% of the worlds' population owns all the wealth in the world. Can they get any richer?

The poor are getting poorer and the middle class is disappearing because they are being marginalized at every tax increase they face and begin to swell the ranks of the poor.

I don't want a dictatorship.

An anarchy then?

They control the major corporations of the world, they have far too much power and influence over society. I think having super corporation controlling sectors of our society in a way is a form of dictatorship.

Don't buy their products, tell the government you want competition.

You want a level playing field so licensing and regulation should be minimal and there should be no corporate welfare.

I don't think the CEO's are evil people though some probably are, I just don't like a small percentage of the population controlling the world.

If we assume your view is true, how has that affected you personally?

There is the porn industry, people already do want to have sex for money. I'm sure there are prostitutes who enjoy what they do.

Their careers are pretty short. The longer the career the shorter their lives.

We still have net neutrality.

But that's threatened, right? What do you do every day to make the world look like a better place?

I don't understand why we don't change.

We're human. It'll take time. But once chuck the crap we have now and learn some basics about behavior we will make some headway.

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Oh really? How old are you? Ever heard of a guy named Ross Perot?

Ross - had more brains and practicality than Bush and Obama packed into one mudball..that is not saying much - but America always goes for the superfical - whether it be food - ideas or people..Ross was just not cute enough - and had a squeaky voice.

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How much wealth that one earns can he keep before he is considered to be hoarding? People don't like to have things taken from them. Money will become worthless if you state an amount, property will be held by trust companies - that happens now. It is not fair to take someone's property even if you think he is "hoarding". Do that and charity will disappear entirely. The poor will be further marginalized.

You don't want people to be perfect citizens by law but you want them to not save their money or amass property. You would call that criminal yet you believe in personal liberties and oppose government forcing people. These are incongruous views.

Why would I want people to not save money or amass property, I never said that. When I say rich I mean the multi millionaires or billionaires of society. They do not need nor deserve that much wealth. Wealth doesn't disappear it just trades hands, them hoarding that wealth deprives us from the obtaining that wealth.

The only reason I think they were able to obtain that much wealth is threw the fractional reserve banking system that we use.

Yes, and..??? There is no secrecy surrounding monetary policy. There is a neglect to educate and that is true of every erudite profession or trade, but the information is there if you want it.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/B-2/page-4.html#anchorbo-ga:s_16

Section 16. Before a person starts to act as a director, an officer or an employee of the Bank, he or she shall take an oath, or make a solemn affirmation, of fidelity and secrecy, in the form set out in the schedule, before a commissioner for taking affidavits.

the schedule

OATH OR SOLEMN AFFIRMATION OF OFFICE

I, ..............., do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully and to the best of my judgment and ability perform the duties that relate to any office or position in the Bank held by me. I also solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will not communicate or allow to be communicated, to any person not entitled to it, any confidential information that relates to the business or affairs of the Bank that I may learn in the course of performing those duties; use any such information for any purpose other than to perform those duties; or allow any person to inspect or have access to any books and records that belong to or that are in the possession of the Bank and that relate to the business or affairs of the Bank, unless the person is legally entitled to inspect them or to have access to them.

There is some secrecy.

In America Ron Paul has tried but failed to get a simple audit of the Federal Reserve.

The poor are getting poorer and the middle class is disappearing because they are being marginalized at every tax increase they face and begin to swell the ranks of the poor.

Agreed

An anarchy then?

Those are two polar opposites.

I am somewhat an anarchist, I don't believe the governments role should be what it is now, I believe in smaller government. I wouldn't say I am a complete anarchist, I do believe there is a role for government, to protect liberties and ensure equality.

Their careers are pretty short. The longer the career the shorter their lives.

This may be true but as long as they enjoy what they are doing, isn't that all that matters.

We're human. It'll take time. But once chuck the crap we have now and learn some basics about behavior we will make some headway.

Our behavior is greatly influenced by our environment, we need to change our environment if we wish to change our behavior. I think monetary policy would be a good place to start.

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Hey Maple, have you ever read anything like Steven Pinker 'The Blank Slate', ' The Modern Denial of Human Nature'? Over the years I've read a bit about human nature and I think it is integral to understanding how we and why we developed socially and economically the way we did. Also in terms of coming up with ways to understand and perhaps initiate change a good understanding of human nature is invaluable. A big part of the infamous almost completely evasive reason why. Personally I really enjoyed the Steven Pinker book but even Carl Sagan produced and interesting read in 'Shadows of our Ancestors'. I have a few university texts too kicking around that made for a good read on the subject which I purchased from a recycling store for cheap. I have also found some good reading amongst astrology books, the better ones can give good insight to human capability in terms of personality types.

The only reason I think they were able to obtain that much wealth is threw the fractional reserve banking system that we use.

I can't agree with this. History gives us the knowledge of the super elite and wealth hoarding as a trend/reality that is eternal to our species. The wealth was not always paper money, gold, silver, wheat, spices, hunting grounds, fishing grounds...and until just recently comparatively had nothing to do with fractional reserve.

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