Mosque going up in NYC building

[CANADIEN]

Then why are you against others doing exactly the same thing? You are not "forced to read" or hear it. Keep your brand of censorship in Canada.

Have I offended you? I am so sorry. Imagine the audacity. Expressing my disagreemnt with a point of view I dsiagree with. Saying something is wrong when I blieve is wrong.

Guess I am better just to put you on ignore, just incase I might offend you just by not agreeing with others on this site. After all, it would interfere with that particular form of censorship of yours which consists of claiming that nobody should take exception to whatever is being said here.

[bush_cheney2004]

Have I offended you? I am so sorry. Imagine the audacity. Expressing my disagreemnt with a point of view I dsiagree with. Saying something is wrong when I blieve is wrong.

It has nothing to do with what you believe is right or wrong....free speech rights trump your personal belief system. Keep your hate speech phobias in Canada.

Guess I am better just to put you on ignore, just incase I might offend you just by not agreeing with others on this site. After all, it would interfere with that particular form of censorship of yours which consists of claiming that nobody should take exception to whatever is being said here.

Take exception all you wish, but you do not have the right to silence them. As for the ignore list, please join the list of my favorite fans.

Edited August 30, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

You mean right in the toilet, right. And note that the name of the project was changed because ignoramous and hate-mongerers distorted the symbolism of the initial name. AFter all, it would be incredibly dangerous to have any reference to a city that was, at the peak of its glory, a place of meeting and dialogyue between Muslims, Christians and Jews.

It was changed because the developers wanted to focus on the community aspect of the project rather than the religious.

[CANADIEN]

It was changed because the developers wanted to focus on the community aspect of the project rather than the religious.

Of course. The screams of "they're calling it Cordoba, it's a symbol of Muslim domination!" had nothing to do with it.

[Guest American Woman]

jbg is exactly the type of people these protestors really are, despite scrambling denials to the contrary: they're totally bigoted, fearful little toadies.

jbj is exactly the type of person he really is, just as each individual protester is the type of person they really are. I find it ignorant beyond belief that you paint all protesters with the same broad brush, even as you recognize that they have "denied" beliefs they don't have, as you and your ilk accuse others of painting Muslims all with the same brush. Seriously. It really doesn't get more ignorant than that.

[CANADIEN]

jbj is exactly the type of person he really is, just as each individual protester is the type of person they really are. I find it ignorant beyond belief that you paint all protesters with the same broad brush, even as you recognize that they have "denied" beliefs they don't have, as you and your ilk accuse others of painting Muslims all with the same brush. Seriously. It really doesn't get more ignorant than that.

I beg to differ. As far as ignorant statements "the proposed mosque is a celebration of 9-11" wins the prize every day.

[Guest American Woman]

Of course. The screams of "they're calling it Cordoba, it's a symbol of Muslim domination!" had nothing to do with it.

What do you think the "religious" connotation of "Cordoba" is? Just curious.

The developers themselves said they changed the name to take the focus off the religious aspect of the project, so they are in effect saying that "Cordoba" does have religious connotations.

I find it interesting that they would give in to changing the name, though, because of the "screams," yet they aren't giving in to changing the location because of the protests.

As a side note, I am curious as to why you, who are in opposition to the project yourself, have gone on and on criticizing others who also oppose the project. What makes you think you are holier-than-thou in your opposition?

[Guest American Woman]

I beg to differ. As far as ignorant statements "the proposed mosque is a celebration of 9-11" wins the prize every day.

And I beg to differ. At least that's nothing more than an opinion that you find ignorant, whereas the hypocrisy of painting all in opposition with the same brush, in spite of what they've clearly stated their reasons/beliefs are, as they accuse those in opposition of painting all Muslims with the same brush, is ignorance in action. It's one thing to think someone has an ignorant opinion; it's quite another to act in a hypocritical, ignorant manner.

Edited August 30, 2010 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

Of course. The screams of "they're calling it Cordoba, it's a symbol of Muslim domination!" had nothing to do with it.

It is a symbol of Islamic conquest and domination.

You mean right in the toilet, right. And note that the name of the project was changed because ignoramous and hate-mongerers distorted the symbolism of the initial name. AFter all, it would be incredibly dangerous to have any reference to a city that was, at the peak of its glory, a place of meeting and dialogyue between Muslims, Christians and Jews.

All dancing hand in hand to strains of "It's A Small World, Afterall", no doubt...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

[DogOnPorch]

And I beg to differ. At least that's nothing more than an opinion that you find ignorant, whereas the hypocrisy of painting all in opposition with the same brush, in spite of what they've clearly stated their reasons/beliefs are, as they accuse those in opposition of painting all Muslims with the same brush, is ignorance in action. It's one thing to think someone has an ignorant opinion; it's quite another to act in a hypocritical, ignorant manner.

Agreement...did you know you're also being refered to as an arsonist in the other mosque thread?

[CANADIEN]

What do you think the "religious" connotation of "Cordoba" is? Just curious.

Scroll back and see what I think the connotation is. No need to waste my time repeating it.

Î find it interesting that they would give in to changing the name, though, because of the "screams," yet they aren't giving in to changing the location because of the protests.

Nothing that interesting. Most people will bend backward only to some extent to please people who insist they assume guilt for something they didn't do. Because let's not be fooled here. This is exactly what the "be emphatic towards the families of the victims" bit is, even if some manage to delude themselves in believing otherwise.

As for my opposition to the project, nothing about being holier-than-thou. It has to do with the fact the project will act as a lightning rod for bigots, hate-mongerers and those who believe Muslims should act as if they were all personally responsible for 9-11.

That's why I am critical of most of the opponents of the projects and their motives. But they are free to continue. For one thing, it is entertaining to see them being their own worse enemies over and oer again.

Edited August 30, 2010 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

And I beg to differ. At least that's nothing more than an opinion that you find ignorant, whereas the hypocrisy of painting all in opposition with the same brush, in spite of what they've clearly stated their reasons/beliefs are, as they accuse those in opposition of painting all Muslims with the same brush, is ignorance in action. It's one thing to think someone has an ignorant opinion; it's quite another to act in a hypocritical, ignorant manner.

Let,s talk about hypocrisy, indeeed. Like the one displayed by those who say that they don't view all Muslims as being guilty while clearly insisting that Muslims act like if they were. This is exactly what the repeated chant of "show empathy" combined with "Muslims did it" is.

[Guest American Woman]

Let,s talk about hypocrisy, indeeed. Like the one displayed by those who say that they don't view all Muslims as being guilty while clearly insisting that Muslims act like if they were. This is exactly what the repeated chant of "show empathy" combined with "Muslims did it" is.

No. That's your take on it. "Empathy" has nothing to do with "guilt;" they are two very different things, and if you can't understand that, if you can't understand what empathy is, that's your problem. But when you insist other people are guilty of something they don't feel, when they've made it clear what they do think/feel, that's acting in an ignorant manner, and it doesn't say much about that person's character.

Notice I'm not accusing you of anything that you don't believe/think, nor have I accused anyone of anything they don't think/feel throughout this thread in spite of the lowlife way they have behaved towards me.

I have made my position clear. That you can't accept it says a whole lot about you, and it's not good.

[Guest American Woman]

Agreement...did you know you're also being refered to as an arsonist in the other mosque thread?

The thing is, an opinion is just that, one opinion, while acting in an ignorant, hypocritical manner is a sign of a person's character. And speaking of lack of character, yes, I am aware of the reference to my being an arsonist in the other mosque thread -- from a poster who I stopped responding to long ago, yet can't seem to restrain himself from constantly throwing insults at me.

[CANADIEN]

No. That's your take on it. "Empathy" has nothing to do with "guilt;" they are two very different things, and if you can't understand that, if you can't understand what empathy is, that's your problem.

Will talk in a moment about what empathy is, and what it isn't. As for now...

But when you insist other people are guilty of something they don't feel, when they've made it clear what they do think/feel, that's acting in an ignorant manner, and it doesn't say much about that person's character.

Apt description of people who insist that the promoters of the Cordoba Project want to celebrate Islam when they have clearly stated otherwise, don't you think? (and know, I am not saying you made such a claim)

Notice I'm not accusing you of anything that you don't believe/think, nor have I accused anyone of anything they don't think/feel throughout this thread in spite of the lowlife way they have behaved towards me.

I have made my position clear. That you can't accept it says a whole lot about you, and it's not good.

Please spare the victimhood bit. No matter how much you want to self-delude yourself otherwise, what you call empathy is nothing more than a call for Muslims to stay silent and act like they personally needed to atone for what occured on 9-11. Feel free to buy it, I won't.

Edited August 30, 2010 by CANADIEN

[Guest American Woman]

Please spare the victimhood bit. No matter how much you want to self-delude yourself otherwise, what you call empathy is nothing more than a call for Muslims to stay silent and act like they personally needed to atone for what occured on 9-11. Feel free to buy it, I won't.

Here's what I believe:

All Muslims are not responsible for 9-11.

All Muslims are not terrorists.

Muslims have the right to build on the property in question and I will defend that right; however, I question whether it's the right thing to do.

Considering the fact that Muslims damaged the property the mosque is being built on on 9-11, and but for those actions this property would not be available for the mosque, I feel it's insensitive to build on this property.

I therefore believe those in charge of the project should build elsewhere out of empathy to those who lost loved ones on 9-11 and out of understanding for the way the majority of Americans feel about it, and that includes Americans who happen to be Muslims, who share the same views.

I believe empathy and understanding are a two way street.

I hold myself and all nations/religions/people to the same standards.

I agreed wholeheartedly with Bush when he said we should not blame all Muslims for 9-11; that we are not at war with Islam.

I think it's now time for Muslims to understand where non-Muslims are coming from regarding this issue.

Refute what I said and think, or I will keep reposting what I said and think in response to your ignorance/inability-to-comprehend-what-I-said/dishonesty. Keep misrepresenting what I actually believe, keep putting your ignorant views on me, and you will keep seeing what I really think/believe repeated over and over again.

Edited August 30, 2010 by American Woman

[Smallc]

All Muslims are not responsible for 9-11.

All Muslims are not terrorists.

Considering the fact that Muslims damaged the property the mosque is being built on on 9-11, and but for those actions this property would not be available for the mosque, I feel it's insensitive to build on this property.

I therefore believe those in charge of the project should build elsewhere out of empathy to those who lost loved ones on 9-11 and out of understanding for the way the majority of Americans feel about it

Do you not understand how irreconcilable the first two statements are with the the last two statements?

Edited August 30, 2010 by Smallc

[CANADIEN]

Want to talk about empathy, AW¬ Let's talk about empathy...

Empathy is understanding where other people come from. what it is NOT is saying silent and stop doing what one consider the right thing to do to heal wounds when people demonize Muslims, twist their intention, and act like if they should personally bear responsibility for what happened. Which is what some of the relatives of the victims have done. Empathy does NOT mean agreeing with those people.

And if you want to talk about empathy for the relatives of the victims, how about the following relatives:

Orlando Rodriguez and Phyllis Schaefer Rodriguez, whose son died in the attack, and said they "support the building of the Islamic community center in lower Manhattan" and "feel that it would honor our son and other victims".

Herb Ouida, whose son Todd died, and said: "To say that we're going to condemn a religion and castigate a billion people in the world because they're Muslims, to say that they shouldn't have the ability to pray near the World Trade Center—I don't think that's going to bring people together and cross the divide.

Donna O'Connor, whose pregnant daughter died on 9/11, who expressed the opinion that "This building will serve as an emblem for the rest of the world that Americans ... recognize that the evil acts of a few must never damn the innocent."

Bruce Wallace, whose nephew died as he rushed in to help the victims, who said"the media seems eager to trumpet the feelings of those hurt by the idea of the center. They mostly ignore my feelings and those, like me, who feel the center is an important step for Americans."

Terry Rockefeller, whose sister was killed, said: "this doesn't insult her at all. This celebrates the city she loved living in. It is what makes America what we are."

Empathy does not mean agreeing with these people. But empathy ibncludes recognizing their feelings. Something that has been missing (from all sides of the debate, may I add) here.

[Guest American Woman]

Do you not understand how irreconcilable the first two statements are with the the last two statements?

Because you cannot understand them in any other way does not mean that they are irreconcilable, and they are not.

[ToadBrother]

#1. Islam painted themselves with a wide brush. A brush covered in the blood of victims of terrorism. Perhaps if so many Muslims didn't act according to their so-called stereotype, said brush wouldn't exist.

Yeah, this isn't a bigot's words.

#2. If by demanding you mean exercising freedom of speech, and freedom of protest, then yes. But the so-called demanding, or protesting goes far beyond it just being a mosque and just being Islam. But again, then you and your ilk would have to acknowledge reality, and your collective heads would explode from your collective guilt.

If you have evidence of criminal activity, then provide it.

You're "ilk" are part of the problem. Shameless bigots. At least American Woman tries to hide her prejudices. You wear them like some sort of badge of pride. I suppose it's always the way with the most corrupted minds, seeing their prejudices as virtues.

Answer me this. Does this group have the legal right to build the mosque or not? Yes or no will do.

[Smallc]

Because you cannot understand them in any other way does not mean that they are irreconcilable, and they are not.

You can't say that all Muslims aren't guilty and then follow it up by saying that all Muslims are guilty and expect people to take your statements at face value.

[Guest American Woman]

Want to talk about empathy, AW¬ Let's talk about empathy...

I know exactly what empathy is, and it's not synonymous with "guilt." Not at all.

Empathy is understanding where other people come from. what it is NOT is saying silent and stop doing what one consider the right thing to do to heal wounds when people demonize Muslims, twist their intention, and act like if they should personally bear responsibility for what happened. Which is what some of the relatives of the victims have done. Empathy does NOT mean agreeing with those people.

I've never done any of those things. Try really hard to stick to what I have said. This is the last time I will say that. Throw something at me that I don't think/believe again, and you will get nothing but a repetition of what I do think/believe.

And if you want to talk about empathy for the relatives of the victims, how about the following relatives:

Orlando Rodriguez and Phyllis Schaefer Rodriguez, whose son died in the attack, and said they "support the building of the Islamic community center in lower Manhattan" and "feel that it would honor our son and other victims".

Herb Ouida, whose son Todd died, and said: "To say that we're going to condemn a religion and castigate a billion people in the world because they're Muslims, to say that they shouldn't have the ability to pray near the World Trade Center—I don't think that's going to bring people together and cross the divide.

Donna O'Connor, whose pregnant daughter died on 9/11, who expressed the opinion that "This building will serve as an emblem for the rest of the world that Americans ... recognize that the evil acts of a few must never damn the innocent."

Bruce Wallace, whose nephew died as he rushed in to help the victims, who said"the media seems eager to trumpet the feelings of those hurt by the idea of the center. They mostly ignore my feelings and those, like me, who feel the center is an important step for Americans."

Terry Rockefeller, whose sister was killed, said: "this doesn't insult her at all. This celebrates the city she loved living in. It is what makes America what we are."

I respect those people's views. Totally. But they do not represent the majority. Furthermore, I can quote, and have quoted, just as many Muslims who share my views. Again, considering the facts and the way the majority of Americans feel, including many American Muslims, I disagree with the choice to build the mosque on this property.

Empathy does not mean agreeing with these people. But empathy ibncludes recognizing their feelings. Something that has been missing (from all sides of the debate, may I add) here.

I do recognize their feelings and their feelings have not been missing in how I ultimately feel. There are a lot of feelings to be considered; a lot of different feelings. But the stated purpose of this mosque is to build bridges, and it's doing just the opposite.

Edited August 30, 2010 by American Woman

[Smallc]

I know exactly what empathy is,

Then you must realize that, empathy, being non literal, does not in any way preclude the building of this mosque.

[CANADIEN]

Here's what I believe:

All Muslims are not responsible for 9-11.

All Muslims are not terrorists.

Muslims have the right to build on the property in question and I will defend that right; however, I question whether it's the right thing to do.

Considering the fact that Muslims damaged the property the mosque is being built on on 9-11, and but for those actions this property would not be available for the mosque, I feel it's insensitive to build on this property.

I therefore believe those in charge of the project should build elsewhere out of empathy to those who lost loved ones on 9-11 and out of understanding for the way the majority of Americans feel about it, and that includes Americans who happen to be Muslims, who share the same views.

I believe empathy and understanding are a two way street.

I hold myself and all nations/religions/people to the same standards.

I agreed wholeheartedly with Bush when he said we should not blame all Muslims for 9-11; that we are not at war with Islam.

I think it's now time for Muslims to understand where non-Muslims are coming from regarding this issue.

Refute what I said and think, or I will keep reposting what I said and think in response to your ignorance/inability-to-comprehend-what-I-said/dishonesty. Keep misrepresenting what I actually believe, keep putting your ignorant views on me, and you will keep seeing what I really think/believe repeated over and over again.

Feel free to delude yourself into thinking what you are asking the proponents of the project to do des not amount to assuming guilt for what happened. I don't have to.

And feel free to call me ignorant or any other epithet that comes to your mind because I won't share in your self-delusion. I have been called far worse things by far better people than you, and at least some of them happened to be right on the target.

[Guest American Woman]

Feel free to delude yourself into thinking what you are asking the proponents of the project to do des not amount to assuming guilt for what happened. I don't have to.

And feel free to call me ignorant or any other epithet that comes to your mind because I won't share in your self-delusion. I have been called far worse things by far better people than you, and at least some of them happened to be right on the target.

Here's what I believe:

All Muslims are not responsible for 9-11.

All Muslims are not terrorists.

Muslims have the right to build on the property in question and I will defend that right; however, I question whether it's the right thing to do.

Considering the fact that Muslims damaged the property the mosque is being built on on 9-11, and but for those actions this property would not be available for the mosque, I feel it's insensitive to build on this property.

I therefore believe those in charge of the project should build elsewhere out of empathy to those who lost loved ones on 9-11 and out of understanding for the way the majority of Americans feel about it, and that includes Muslims who share the same views.

I believe empathy and understanding are a two way street.

I hold myself and all nations/religions/people to the same standards.

I agreed wholeheartedly with Bush when he said we should not blame all Muslims for 9-11; that we are not at war with Islam.

I think it's now time for Muslims to understand where non-Muslims are coming from regarding this issue.

Refute what I said and think, or I will keep reposting what I said and think in response to your ignorance/inability to comprehend what I said/dishonesty. Keep misrepresenting what I actually believe, keep putting your ignorant views on me, and you will keep seeing what I really think/believe repeated over and over again.